Future of Division III

Started by Ralph Turner, October 10, 2005, 07:27:51 PM

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Ron Boerger

Quote from: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on February 19, 2025, 09:09:07 PMIf there's a geographic center it's been in Massachusetts.  Five, I think, in the last 4-5 years.

The northeast is the area showing the most severe impact from the demographic cliff.

B-SC's closure was due to repeated financial mismanagement (if not outright fraud) over a period of decades that finally caught up with them.

deiscanton

Quote from: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on February 19, 2025, 09:09:07 PM
Quote from: CNU85 on February 19, 2025, 07:03:51 PMA friend of mine is in the middle of shopping for universities for his youngest daughter. He lives in Virginia. His oldest daughter is currently a sophomore at Tennessee. So he's been in the college shopping mode for years. He said that a college in Texas....i want to say he mentioned Texas A&M, but don't quote me on that....is growing so fast that they had to put the brakes on. They are building 4 large dorms plus academic buildings etc. Knowing the situation of many universities, he asked what was the secret of this Texas school. He was told that the belief is that fewer students want to go to school in the north and even fewer want to or can afford schools in the northeast.

I'm curious if anyone has done any geographic analysis of the schools that have closed. Just off the top of my head, it seems like they are across the board....Birmingham Southern, Wesley, Finlandia.

Does anyone have access to any analysis?

If there's a geographic center it's been in Massachusetts.  Five, I think, in the last 4-5 years.

In the last decade alone in Massachusetts, at least six D3 schools closed their doors.   Newbury, Mt. Ida, Becker, Eastern Nazarene, Pine Manor, and Wheelock. 

WashingtonWiz99

Quote from: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on February 14, 2025, 12:09:41 PMMy wife's grandfather died in 2019.  He lived on a $1500 a month army pension for the last 40 years of his life, but he still sent a $30 check to Berea every month, without having attended or even knowing an alum.  He was an old school social reformer in the Pete Seeger tradition and he believed in the mission.

I agree adding to huge endowments doesn't do a whole lot.  That's been Malcolm Gladwell's big talking point for a while.  He did a couple of podcasts on it a few years back, using Rowan as an example of how a big gift to a poorer school can transform an institution.  It's a good listen.

Please share a link. Thanks!

WashingtonWiz99

Quote from: IC798891 on February 16, 2025, 08:53:38 PMThe bigger problem with endowments isn't that you can only draw down X% a year. It's that an overwhelming majority of that money is earmarked for specific things which may have nothing at all to do with the college's biggest needs. Especially if those needs are the un-glamorous thing like dorms, or deferred maintenance, etc.

At Wells, for example, just 15% of their endowment was unrestricted when they were forced to close.

There's a lot of cynicism about spending in higher education, and I'm not naive enough to say that all of that cynicism is unjustified. But there's a reason why colleges often ask for donations right to the general fund.

Spot on. I hate when people talk endowment. Doesn't mean a whole lot if you don't know what the money is set aside for.

WashingtonWiz99

I love higher-ed and have a bachelor's and master's. But, it's inability to adapt over the years (collectively) and new regimes not learning from the past have led to where we are at. Again, collectively. This isn't a one size fits all approach.

IC798891

Quote from: FiredCoachesPod on February 20, 2025, 12:34:22 PMSpot on. I hate when people talk endowment. Doesn't mean a whole lot if you don't know what the money is set aside for.

Exactly. People view the endowment like it's a petty cash drawer. It's not.

That's why colleges have capital campaigns. It's not just for the massive amounts it can raise. It's because it's the only way to ensure that the money goes to the areas you've identified as the biggest needs for the campus over the next 10 years.

It's sort of like trying to view the enrollment of a college solely through applicant numbers. Getting 1,000 more applicants doesn't help you if it's in programs that can't increase the number of applicants they admit.

Ralph Turner

Quote from: Ron Boerger on February 20, 2025, 08:33:22 AM
Quote from: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on February 19, 2025, 09:09:07 PMIf there's a geographic center it's been in Massachusetts.  Five, I think, in the last 4-5 years.

The northeast is the area showing the most severe impact from the demographic cliff.

B-SC's closure was due to repeated financial mismanagement (if not outright fraud) over a period of decades that finally caught up with them.
... and about 20 years ago the B-SC president kicked the UMC Bishop off the campus

Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)

Quote from: FiredCoachesPod on February 20, 2025, 12:33:23 PM
Quote from: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on February 14, 2025, 12:09:41 PMMy wife's grandfather died in 2019.  He lived on a $1500 a month army pension for the last 40 years of his life, but he still sent a $30 check to Berea every month, without having attended or even knowing an alum.  He was an old school social reformer in the Pete Seeger tradition and he believed in the mission.

I agree adding to huge endowments doesn't do a whole lot.  That's been Malcolm Gladwell's big talking point for a while.  He did a couple of podcasts on it a few years back, using Rowan as an example of how a big gift to a poorer school can transform an institution.  It's a good listen.

Please share a link. Thanks!

https://www.pushkin.fm/podcasts/revisionist-history/my-little-hundred-million
Lead Columnist for D3hoops.com
@ryanalanscott just about anywhere

Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)


I suspect it's an unspoken aim, but Massachusetts has been working hard to run some of the smaller private colleges out and shift those students to the state system.  High achieving HS students can now generally attend state schools for free and the Attorney General's office has been very strictly holding to quite rigorous standards for the colleges.

I don't necessarily disagree with high standards and healthy schools, but it sure doesn't make it easier to stay open - a lot of states are bending over backward to try and save schools (see Wesley).
Lead Columnist for D3hoops.com
@ryanalanscott just about anywhere

Gray Fox

Quote from: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on February 20, 2025, 03:16:29 PMI suspect it's an unspoken aim, but Massachusetts has been working hard to run some of the smaller private colleges out and shift those students to the state system.  High achieving HS students can now generally attend state schools for free and the Attorney General's office has been very strictly holding to quite rigorous standards for the colleges.

I don't necessarily disagree with high standards and healthy schools, but it sure doesn't make it easier to stay open - a lot of states are bending over backward to try and save schools (see Wesley).
California is a virtual desert when it comes to smaller colleges.
Fierce When Roused

CNU85

Great posts. I took a off for a snow day (we got 8" Wednesday in Newport News, VA), and this board explodes with good stuff. Now to take more time for podcasts and research this weekend since I can't go outside and work in the yard!

Interesting comments on the ASC Football board that concern the possible move of D3 schools to other affiliations (D2, NAIA, different D3 conferences).

Time to pop the top off a CNU Captains Lager and go down rabbit holes tonight!


judgetrainer

I have been away from this site for a while. I must say that this series of posts is honestly impressive. So many alumni haven't a clue how endowments work. Well done, gentlemen.

A few things come to mind. Most endowments, as stated earlier, are earmarked for specific tasks. Some things (endowing a position, for example, are sexy to donors. Others, like maintaining a building or a field, are not. Over time that deferred maintanence gets more and more expensive. Some endowments are made to start programs and schools foolishly don't require the full cost or underestimate that cost. The professionals talk about budget relieving and budget enhancing gifts. Both have their place.

The SNC situation is startling for its scope. I have to observe, however, that Stevens Point went through a similar reduction process a few years ago. It is possible that not every college can or should offer every major. Someone mentioned the enrollment cliff earlier It is real. A lot of expansion happened before that was observed. Now we see contraction. Wisconsin has seen three schools close since the pandemic: Silver Lake/Holy Name, Cardinal Stritch, and now Northland. All had very small endowments and small student bodies. That trend will continue. 

A parent asked for trends. I can only say look at the size of the endowment per student rather than the gross number. Look at the trend of the endowment. Is it growing or declining. at what rate, and so on. Look at the number of students. Is that rising or shrinking?

My wife works in the field of university finance. She is now in the private sector as a consultant. Everyone has these same concerns, and no one has certain answers. Tuition rises, but no one pays full price anymore (well, a few exceptions). Students demand more amenities or they attend elsewhere. The competition is simply nasty.     

maripp2002

Quote from: judgetrainer on February 25, 2025, 01:32:38 PM. I have to observe, however, that Stevens Point went through a similar reduction process a few years ago. It is possible that not every college can or should offer every major

To be fair, Saint Norbert is a private college, and UWSP is public. If you think of public universities as public services, there should be no mandate to make money for them and they should be well funded by tax dollars. As a UWSP alumnus, a Wisconsin taxpayer, and a graduate of a liberal arts major (Latin and Classical Civ. at Wabash College) I'd have no problem funding programs in the liberal arts at pre-Scott Walker funding levels at all of the UW campuses. Mainly, because I believe that not every major or degree needs to have an exact real world job description to match it, and that the world is a better place with well rounded humans in it.

With that said, the ability to fund a college or university is a very complicated process that involves a lot of different moving parts. And I can certainly understand cutting programs that aren't getting much love or at least "right sizing", consolidating, or working with other schools to continue a program. But I think it's apples to oranges to compare any of the UW campuses to any of the private colleges in Wisconsin. The two sets of schools should have different missions and funding, and comparing what happened at the UW campuses to what is happening at SNC are very different scenarios that have very little in common for a dozen reasons.
A fan of good football - wherever it may be found.

Little Giant 89

Meanwhile, back at the ranch, the Endowment Tax Fairness Act could cripple small colleges (like mine) that have worked to build their endowment and use the income from that endowment to operate the school and keep the actual tuition paid by students low.

https://nehls.house.gov/media/press-releases/rep-troy-e-nehls-introduces-bill-hold-elite-university-endowments-accountable
"Bringing you up to speed is like explaining Norway to a dog."
Jackson Lamb, Slow Horses

Gray Fox

Quote from: Little Giant 89 on February 26, 2025, 02:21:39 PMMeanwhile, back at the ranch, the Endowment Tax Fairness Act could cripple small colleges (like mine) that have worked to build their endowment and use the income from that endowment to operate the school and keep the actual tuition paid by students low.

https://nehls.house.gov/media/press-releases/rep-troy-e-nehls-introduces-bill-hold-elite-university-endowments-accountable
God help us.
Fierce When Roused