Future of Division III

[smedindy]

You can't be serious.  Being willing to spend thousands of dollars per student over a potential five week schedule, granting students leeway to travel longer distances than usual, doesn't reflect a reordering of priority, in favor of athletics?

Well, when we allow travel for College Bowl teams that advance to the nationals, I'd say it's granting students  opportunities to pursue their extra cirriculars.  Every day I see dean's excuse emails for this class or this activity to miss some of the day for travel.

Playoff time is also crunch time in the classroom, and I can tell you this - not one professor is letting any of the athletes work slide. They expect the same work no matter what.

Why is it superior that the NESCAC footballers only play the NESCAC? It is QUITE insular - it's a haughty sense that they are superior to the rest of D-3, and I take umbrage regarding that attitude.

I think you are selling student-athletes way,way short. You should meet some of them around here. They are quite serious about their studies and about their sports, and about their other activities. They compete on the field and in the classroom.

[redswarm81]

You are missing the point, I must not be explaining it well enough.

The reason I am asking about marginal improvement is to address specifically the difference between healthy participation in extracurricular activity (e.g., a 9 game football season), and participation in national playoffs.

Participation in a 9 game football season is a tremendous enhancement to an undergraduate education.  So in other words, the value of that enhancement is the difference between an education plus a 9 game regular season and an education without a 9 game regular season.

I don't see a five week playoff offering much improvement on the enhancement already provided by the regular season.

In fact, I see tremendous costs associated with the additional high stakes games, and very few if any benefits that accrue to the education.  The costs of participating in the playoffs are enormous in every measure--money, time, students' attention, all of which are limited resources.  What does the student athlete learn in the playoffs that he didn't learn in the regular season?

If you do  understand my point, you'll understand why the issue of students choosing to attend Williams knowing that playoffs are not an option is irrelevant.  The more relevant choice is the choice to play football or not to play football.  Then you'll also understand why I excised certain irrelevant text when I quoted you.

My point is that Williams students receive as well rounded an education as any Linfield student could possibly receive, yet the Williams students will never participate in a national football championship playoff.  The DIII national championship offers no benefit academically, and yet Division III claims to emphasize academics over athletics.

If you understand my point, you'll also understand that the lessons in "responsiblity, time management and priorities" are taught just as effectively without any participation in a national championship playoff system.  Choosing to play football forces a student to learn those lessons.

I enjoy the heck out of the Division III playoffs.  I'm just trying to find out if anyone else recognizes the fact that it's so clearly inconsistent with Division III's lofty goals?

[Warren Thompson]

I'm just trying to find out if anyone else recognizes the fact that it's so clearly inconsistent with Division III's lofty goals?

That might be one of D3's happy little inconsistencies, and certainly not as blatant as what D1 presidents utter when they assay to justify professional athetics at their venues.

[smedindy]

Then let's eliminate all championships. But that also eliminates the essence of varsity athletics.

You strive to be the best at everything. You learn by the struggle and achieving whatever goal you have set for yourself and for your team.

The players at Hiram suit up, knowing that they probably will not have a winning record, much less make the playoffs. But they suit up and compete. At Wabash, the goal is to beat DePauw and make the playoffs. That's why they compete. At Linfield, the goal is to win the title. You learn from the struggle to achieve your goal, and that is a valuable lesson.

The costs you assert - actually I think having a team in the playoffs FOCUS the attention of the students on a positive activity that helps unify the campus.

And the classroom cost I mentioned below. It's just another week for a student athlete. He must do the work anyway.

How can a football playoff be any worse than the basketball playoffs, or field hockey, or swimming? At least in football, the distractions, if any, are limited to one semester. Many sports stretch over the fall and spring semesters.

[Warren Thompson]

What might be a not-so-happy, not-so-little inconsistency in D3 is the reality that a a goodly number of institutions, through clever manipulation of financial aid, are able to offer what are de facto athletic scholarships.

[redswarm81]

You can't be serious. Being willing to spend thousands of dollars per student over a potential five week schedule, granting students leeway to travel longer distances than usual, doesn't reflect a reordering of priority, in favor of athletics?

Well, when we allow travel for College Bowl teams that advance to the nationals, I'd say it's granting students opportunities to pursue their extra cirriculars. Every day I see dean's excuse emails for this class or this activity to miss some of the day for travel.

I can't understand why it's so hard to get through to some of you, especially when you all know how I love you so much.  

Smed, does it make any difference to you that College Bowl is an academic pursuit?  At least it's more directly related to academics than football.

Have I been misspelling extracurricular?

Playoff time is also crunch time in the classroom, and I can tell you this - not one professor is letting any of the athletes work slide. They expect the same work no matter what.

Understood.  So how then does the school justify endorsing such a tremendous distraction from academics, especially during crunch time?  As I explained to Hoops, I see no evidence that playoffs enhance the academics over and above the enhancement provided by the regular season.  Playoff participation is offered solely for the athletics, not the academic enhancement provided by athletics.

Why is it superior that the NESCAC footballers only play the NESCAC?  It is QUITE insular - it's a haughty sense that they are superior to the rest of D-3, and I take umbrage regarding that attitude.

Fine.  Don't hire graduates from NESCAC schools, but that sort of bigotry is likely to prove more harmful to you than the bigotry you accuse NESCAC schools of committing.  The NESCAC's "insular" reputation does not extend beyond their athletics.  Rather, the opposite is true--they have top national academic reputations.  Just ask US News and World Distort.

I think you are selling student-athletes way,way short. You should meet some of them around here. They are quite serious about their studies and about their sports, and about their other activities. They compete on the field and in the classroom.

This comment I don't understand at all.  I'm not selling student-athletes short, I'm encouraging every student who is able to play Division III college football.  Any education will be enhanced by participation in athletics, particularly in team sports.

All of the arguments that I've heard apply well to the individual choice that a student makes to play football or not.  The arguments also apply well to the choice that a school makes to offer football or not.

However, I don't see how these arguments apply to the choice between permitting participation in a national playoff system or not, especially when the choice is to be made by a school that claims to emphasize academics over athletics.

[redswarm81]

I'm just trying to find out if anyone else recognizes the fact that it's so clearly inconsistent with Division III's lofty goals?

That might be one of D3's happy little inconsistencies, and certainly not as blatant as what D1 presidents utter when they assay to justify professional athetics at their venues.

Warren, you are a total stud.  PatGuru and K-Mack hinted at this conclusion a couple of seasons ago when they were introducing the playoff teams, but you're the first person besides me to say it in so many words.

If that's what it is, I can live with it.  But you and I both recognize that we are perched on a slippery slope, down which D-1 has slid farther than I would have guessed it is possible to descend.  We must remain vigilant to ensure that Division III doesn't follow the path of Division 1.

My pick for the low point of D-1 hypocrisy was when University of Colorado President Betsy Hoffman, in an effort to protect the football program from liability in a sexual harassment lawsuit (and also from NCAA sanctions and Title IX violations), testified under oath that the "c-word" is a term of endearment.

[Warren Thompson]

redswarm:

First, I'm "Dr. Warren" and now I'm a "total stud"? Jeez, I'm positively giddy, I tell ya ....

[smedindy]

The NESCAC have fine repuations. By insular I mean that they think too highly of themselves and their kind, and that's inferred when they play in their own little world in football. Other fine liberal arts colleges educate their students as well or even better than they do, and they seem to do just fine by allowing playoff participation.

You have concerns regarding the extra time it takes to compete the playoffs. I'm saying that the student athlete can and will find the extra time without damaging his studies. I contend that Williams and Amherst will find that if they allow playoff participation, it will not adversely affect their student athletes.

The Ivies do the same thing, yet they allow for their teams to compete in the NCAA basketball tournament, which takes up more of a student athletes time than football.

[redswarm81]

Then let's eliminate all championships. But that also eliminates the essence of varsity athletics.

Again, you can't be serious.  In fact, your argument refutes your conclusion, it doesn't support it:

You strive to be the best at everything. You learn by the struggle and achieving whatever goal you have set for yourself and for your team.

The players at Hiram suit up, knowing that they probably will not have a winning record, much less make the playoffs. But they suit up and compete.  At Wabash, the goal is to beat DePauw and make the playoffs. That's why they compete. At Linfield, the goal is to win the title. You learn from the struggle to achieve your goal, and that is a valuable lesson.

Again Smed, I think your argument is dead on when a student is considering whether to play football or not, and it's dead on when a school is considering whether to offer football or not.  Those Hiram players receive the full benefit of varsity athletics.  In fact, those Hiram students are the essence of varsity athletics.  But I don't see what academic enhancement is offered to Linfield students, that the Hiram students didn't already receive.  An athletic thrill sure, but I see no benefit accruing to the well rounded education.

The costs you assert - actually I think having a team in the playoffs FOCUS the attention of the students on a positive activity that helps unify the campus.

Again,  regular season games against quality rivals accomplish just as much.  Williams v. Amherst, RPI v. Union, Ithaca v. Cortland St., Johnnies v. Tommies, . . .

And the classroom cost I mentioned below. It's just another week for a student athlete. He must do the work anyway.

Then why not play 12 game regular seasons, like they do in D-1?  Where do you draw the line, and why do you draw it where you choose to draw it?

How can a football playoff be any worse than the basketball playoffs, or field hockey, or swimming? At least in football, the distractions, if any, are limited to one semester. Many sports stretch over the fall and spring semesters.

It's difficult to answer the question narrowly, because the biggest danger of football playoffs is the fact that once you extend a season to 15 games, you're seriously courting injury and reduced quality of play.  As I've said many times on several boards, it is impossible for an extended period of time to maintain the degree of fitness necessary to play football consistently well and safely.  Physical conditioning necessarily suffers during the season.

Second, since the football season is only one semester, the playoffs are guaranteed to conflict with exams, and at many schools an inordinately high emphasis is placed on exams.  For this reason, the winter sports might be the least harmful, since their regular season can be suspended and scheduled to accommodate exams.

Third, the sheer size and associated cost of a football program makes it impossible to compare with any other athletic program.  The amount of money that is necessary to operate a football program in Division III is in most cases equal to the athletic budget for all other sports combined.  Expanding that expense to include a five week playoff can't be compared with sending a half dozen qualifiers to the national championship swimming and diving meet.

[redswarm81]

What might be a not-so-happy, not-so-little inconsistency in D3 is the reality that a a goodly number of institutions, through clever manipulation of financial aid, are able to offer what are de facto athletic scholarships.

Ever vigilant, Dr. Studly.  Ever vigilant we must remain.   

[redswarm81]

You have concerns regarding the extra time it takes to compete the playoffs. I'm saying that the student athlete can and will find the extra time without damaging his studies. I contend that Williams and Amherst will find that if they allow playoff participation, it will not adversely affect their student athletes.

On the other hand, I commend Williams and Amherst for sticking to their guns on the emphasis of academics over athletics, by not permitting the possibility of football players' studies being affected negatively by the monstrous(ly entertaining) distraction of national playoffs.

I'd be right there with you Smed, if Williams and Amherst and all of Division III didn't state that the reason they're different is that they emphasize academics over athletics.

The Ivies do the same thing, yet they allow for their teams to compete in the NCAA basketball tournament, which takes up more of a student athletes time than football.

The dirty little not-so-secret is that the NESCAC does the same thing.  In fact, I think that football is the only sport in which they do not participate in the national championships.  (In their defense, the basketball tournament affects a dozen students, the football tournament affects 60.)

In fact, Williams College has a bunch of recent national championships in other sports, which stands to reason considering their campus is swollen with overachieving sons and daughters of privilege.   

[smedindy]

Uh, that first line regarding eliminating all championships was sarcastic. I'm surprised that you didn't pick up on that.

The Wabash / DePauw game does galvanize the Wabash community. It does every year. But this year, and in 2002, there is an ever greater focus right now because of the looming playoff run.

A 10-game regular season is fine. Very few teams will advance to the playoffs far enough to seriously conflict with exams - but many basketball tournaments are scheduled near exam time as well.

Also, must EVERY College experience be solely and completely related to its stated academic mission? There are many serendipitous teaching and learning opportunities that come from intramural athletics, campus forums, dinners, and other social events. Sometimes you learn more OUT of the classroom than in the classroom.

And I don't think the sky is falling on D-3. In fact, read this study: http://www.wabash.edu/cila/home.cfm?news_id=1358

And about cost, once a team makes the playoffs, the only real additional cost is travel, the others are already fixed for the most part, and correct me if I'm wrong, but does not the NCAA pay for travel costs for so many of a team's traveling party? That's why they don't fly unless they have to.

[smedindy]

You can emphasize academics and still contend for a national title. I don't see why those have cross purposes.

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

Although I find it absolutely amazing how many posts have gone by since my last, I have to say again that Red you've missed my point.

You react to my statements as if I were against you.  I agree, there is quite a bit of logic in only playing nine games.  I really don't have an opinion one way or another on the topic itself.  I am more concerned about the way these decisions are made on the campuses.  They should not be made solely by administration or faculty or even the conference; the players deserve a say in this.  We are insulting them by assuming they will always choose play-offs at the sacrifice of their academics.

If we are really in the business of training people to be responsible members of society who can think and reason and run their own live, then we must allow them more choice in the matters that affect them.