Future of Division III

[redswarm81]

Why shouldn't the colleges treat the students as if they are young adults and allow each of them to decide what burdens to undertake rather than paternalistically decide on behalf of all students that the burdens of post-season play are too great and that consequently post-season play should be prohibited?

Because the Division III colleges have pledged to promote academics before athletics.  Permitting students to choose for themselves would mean that the schools would be abandoning their pledge.

That would be wrong, don't you think Frank?

There is some attraction in your argument Frank, but I think it's a dangerously slippery slope.  It's analogous to those colleges that permit their students to choose their own curriculum, and to decide for themselves what is required for a bachelor's degree.  The graduates of such programs are universally not sufficiently prepared intellectually/academically to become productive adults.  I think that in those cases the colleges have abrogated their responsibility to educate the students.

Wait--did I just say "educate the students?"  What's that concept doing in here?  This is about football!  This is about playoffs!  Playoffs are more important than education!  Playoffs are more valuable than education!

Academics before athletics.  Riiiiiight.

[David Collinge]

It's a beautiful morning, the coffee is fresh, it's the day of the Wittenberg game, and I was all prepared to be done with this increasingly inane debate.  But I can't just let this pass:

It is an extra game, but at least here the players treat each game equally.

Even David, our non-athlete contributor, recognizes the fallacy in such a claim.  A playoff game is higher stakes against higher level competition.  If I were your players' coach I'd be upset if they treated the playoff game like any other game.

I never said or implied any such thing.  What I said was that there is more potential for character-building in a playoff game. 

I'm not disturberd or surprised that you misinterpreted my position; I'm used to that.  I am, however, extremely disturbed that you attempted to put words in my mouth.

I am also done with this conversation.

[union89]

Storm ~

Obviously, when I begin a statement with 'Storm' it is directed to you.  How do you know of the distractions which an NCAA playoff game entails??  Unless I'm mistaken, you have never played in one and are basing your comments on what you hear on TV.

[redswarm81]

Storm ~

Obviously, when I begin a statement with 'Storm' it is directed to you.  How do you know of the distractions which an NCAA playoff game entails??  Unless I'm mistaken, you have never played in one and are basing your comments on what you hear on TV.

How is that obvious?  My handle is RedSwarm81, why does "Storm" obviously refer to me?

I played college football, and I know firsthand the kind of mental distraction that a big game causes.  I also know that a winning season causes more mental distraction than a losing season, since there is naturally increased motivation by the athletes to place more emphasis on the continued success of the team, and thus academics are pressured.

I also competed in track at RPI, and if you've ever visited the indoor track at RPI, you could have seen my name on the wall as a multiple school record holder.  I only mention this to point out that I know firsthand the effects of high stakes athletic competition.

What makes you think I watch TV?

Most important U89, I'm smart (I went to RPI), and I apply my intelligence logically.  I am amazed at the extent to which people on this board are willing to go in their efforts to argue that a playoff game doesn't cause a tremendous distraction from academics, a distraction that wouldn't exist if the team weren't in the playoff game.

I don't believe you have stated your opinion, so I don't know where you stand on the issue.  You have only inquired of my athletic bona fides, despite the fact that they are essentially irrelevant to an academic topic such as this.

Union is such a good school U89, why not use your Union-honed intelligence to share with us your well thought out opinion?

[union89]

Storm ~

I take it that is a NO....you have not played in an NCAA playoff game.  The issues that you present in regard to 'distractions' toward academic growth are miniscule in comparison to lessons learned through team building and competition.......You probably missed out on those when you were running around the track in Troy.

Congrats on your picture being on the wall by the way....

[redswarm81]

The issues that you present in regard to 'distractions' toward academic growth are miniscule in comparison to lessons learned through team building and competition.......You probably missed out on those when you were running around the track in Troy.

Congrats on your picture () being on the wall by the way....

U are such a blue collar hero, someone ought to make a movie about you.  You even graduated from Union, and you almost learned how to read, too.  How impressive.

I hesitate to ask this of U, because I've asked it of some brilliant people, and many of them have difficulty addressing it.

How much extra did you learn from playoffs that the regular season didn't teach you "through team building and competition?"

[smedindy]

Man, if you want people to take you seriously, quit insulting them.

[Mr. Ypsi]

redswarm,

You win, you have succeeded in killing off what could have been a very good discussion.

Through a combination of snobbery (which you deny), bullying (which you deny), boasting about your own achievements (I'll match IQ or SAT scores with you any day of the week, but I'm not STUPID enough to brag about it), and TOTALLY ignoring what other posters have said (I still have NO CLUE why you think football is different than any other sport, much less any other extra-curricular activity), you have alienated everyone here.

Good-bye and good-riddance.

[redswarm81]

redswarm,

You win, you have succeeded in killing off what could have been a very good discussion.

Through a combination of snobbery (which you deny), bullying (which you deny), boasting about your own achievements (I'll match IQ or SAT scores with you any day of the week, but I'm not STUPID enough to brag about it), and TOTALLY ignoring what other posters have said (I still have NO CLUE why you think football is different than any other sport, much less any other extra-curricular activity), you have alienated everyone here.

Good-bye and good-riddance.

Bon voyage Doc, but I really don't think you're a sissy.

[redswarm81]

It is an extra game, but at least here the players treat each game equally.

Even David, our non-athlete contributor, recognizes the fallacy in such a claim.  A playoff game is higher stakes against higher level competition.  If I were your players' coach I'd be upset if they treated the playoff game like any other game.

I never said or implied any such thing.  What I said was that there is more potential for character-building in a playoff game. 

I'm not disturberd or surprised that you misinterpreted my position; I'm used to that.  I am, however, extremely disturbed that you attempted to put words in my mouth.

I am also done with this conversation.

Gee David, I'm really sorry.  I misinterpreted your contention that the playoff game had more important educational aspects (due in part, if not entirely to its higher stakes) to imply that the players treated that playoff game differently than a regular season game.

I'll pay you whatever damages you feel  you've suffered.

I've clarified and explained until I'm blue in the text, and yet it remains a simple proposition:

• Any football game is a distraction from academics;
• Playoff games are extra distracting;
• There would be no extra distracting if the "academics before athletics" schools didn't permit playoff games.

Yet you run away.  I'm unimpressed at how sensitive many of the football loving posters in this forum are.

[union89]

Storm ~

You can't be that ignorant to not understand the point we are all attempting to make.  Achieving an NCAA playoff bid is the ultimate goal during double sessions....after that, you control your own destiny.  When you sweat, study and sometimes shed a tear alongside your fellow teammates in August.....playing in December is awfully rewarding....take my word for it...others will back me up I'm sure (although you have no idea because you were busy getting dizzy running around in circles).

All, come visit the Liberty League board....we have a ton of fun and deal with Storm's immaturity on a daily basis.

Has he metioned 1,000 times that he's an attorney yet??

[smedindy]

When you've run off me, Ypsi, and DC from a discussion, you've done something...goodbye and good luck. Hope you have fun talking to yourself.

Again, if you wouldn't insult people, it may be different. Alas, not meant to be.

[redswarm81]

Storm ~

You can't be that ignorant to not understand the point we are all attempting to make.  Achieving an NCAA playoff bid is the ultimate goal during double sessions....after that, you control your own destiny.  When you sweat, study and sometimes shed a tear alongside your fellow teammates in August.....playing in December is awfully rewarding....take my word for it...others will back me up I'm sure (although you have no idea because you were busy getting dizzy running around in circles).

I understand all that.

It sure sounds to me as if you're saying that sometimes, it's okay to put athletics before academics.  That's a perfectly acceptable position to take, but don't try and convince me that you're saying the opposite, that somehow the playoffs place academics before athletics.

Please don't insult my intelligence that way.

[frank uible]

redswarm: In DIII if it is done right, athletics, including inter-collegiate football, is part of education. Undoubtedly you like "jonny utah" and others prefer the order of authority over the messiness of freedom which I prefer. I submit that permitting students to make their own choices despite the risks of error is educational (beside it is democratic). You and jonny will never agree with me nor I with you.

[redswarm81]

redswarm: In DIII if it is done right, athletics, including inter-collegiate football, is part of education. Undoubtedly you like "jonny utah" and others prefer the order of authority over the messiness of freedom which I prefer. I submit that permitting students to make their own choices despite the risks of error is educational (beside it is democratic). You and jonny will never agree with me nor I with you.

So if you were a DIII college administrator, and you had pledged to place academics before athletics, when it came time to decide whether or not to permit participation in a five week playoff at the end of the fall semester, you would say "let the students decide, the risks of error is an educational, so that means I'm keeping academics before athletics?"

You're probably right that we'll never agree, but I don't understand what you think the pledge to place academics before athletics means, or why any school made such a pledge.  It seems to be a pretty flexible pledge.