Future of Division III

[Pat Coleman]

I think St. Vincent will be a top 100 basketball school but I don't think anyone else adds to the division in the sports we cover.

I don't necessarily see a D-IV situation. Looks like a good part of the next decade will be spent trying to find common ground rather than reasons to split up.

[johnnie_esq]

The NCAA attendance figures are out.  SJU was #1 with almost 8,000 ppg, while Ithaca and Linfield were #2 and #3 with a little under 5,000 ppg.  Concordia-Moorhead was #4 with a little over 4,000 ppg.  The MIAC led all conferences with appx 3,000 ppg.

Interesting, though-- D3 was slightly down (-17 ppg at home games, or -27 ppg overall) but D2 was up (+55 ppg at home games and +129 ppg overall).  D1-AA was down and D1-A was up as well.

Any thoughts to any impact this may have?

[Pat Coleman]

The downturn in D-III is so small it could almost be explained away by Linfield not having a home game against Lewis & Clark to help bump the average. Or it could be explained by extra scrutiny being given to the attendance counters at Emory & Henry, who annually are accused of overreporting their attendance.

It seems awfully coincidental, for example, that E&H reported its Bridgewater attendance as 1,734, which is 1,250 lower than any other game. Bridgewater fans were leading the charges all season.

[...]
ps. Kid has a little picture to sum up today's game, stay tuned!

Hmm, they must've known the attendance police were coming -- just 1,734 claimed in the box score.

Well, here you go...

I counted 286 fans on the home side (in the bleachers and standing around the field) during the second quarter.  Llama counted just fewer than 100 in the visitor's stands.  We threw in (just for good measure) another 50 who watched the game from their cars ... and another 50 who just tailgated the whole time (by the way, there were probably no more than that many that tailgated from both schools because of the weather).

So that gives us a grand total of 286+100+50+50 = 486 ... and we will be nice and round up to 500.  And actually, since we didn't account for those using the restrooms, at the concession stands, or in campus buildings ... we will throw in another 100 people (an obvious overshoot).

So that brings our (our being Llama and I) EHC-BC game attendance to 600.

So you all tell me (and below are pics of the home and visitor bleachers during the 2nd quarter), where are the extra 1,134 people they are counting?!

click here for larger image

(pictorial evidence sucks!) 

Point being, I don't put one bit of credence in Division III attendance figures.

[Ralph Turner]

Johnnie, I think that the numbers are within statistical norms.

If we are to see any changes in D3, I think that "drilling" down on the numbers on the southern schools will be a big predictor in any additional growth in D3 football.

Three of the Top 20 attendances belong to "new" programs, #9 CNU, #12 UMHB and #15 LaCollege.

LaCollege had a 4-5 record, so that tells me there is much fan support for D3 football in Louisiana.  Pineville/Alexnadria is away from Baton Rouge and New Orleans, so this is the "biggest" game in town.  If that translates into continuing attendance growth at Huntingdon and good numbers at LaGrange, then we might see other schools in the South adding football.  The other thought that I have about the better numbers is that they usually have a proud tradition and they are the "biggest" game in town, non-urban locales.

Now the denominator of 220+ schools will swallow that incremental change, but I think that I will bode favorably for the continued growth of D3 football, in the South Region at least.

[Gregory Sager]

2009-10 -- Bethany Lutheran MN (UMAC), La Sierra CA (IND), Mitchell CT (IND), Northwestern WI (UMAC), Presentation SD (UMAC), SUNY-Purchase (NEAC), Salem NC (IND).

The UMAC's Northwestern College isn't in Wisconsin, Ralph. It's in St. Paul, MN.

http://nwc.nwc.edu/

I think that there was a school called Northwestern College in Wisconsin somewhere at one time, but I don't believe it's in existence anymore.

[Ralph Turner]

2009-10 -- Bethany Lutheran MN (UMAC), La Sierra CA (IND), Mitchell CT (IND), Northwestern WI (UMAC), Presentation SD (UMAC), SUNY-Purchase (NEAC), Salem NC (IND).

The UMAC's Northwestern College isn't in Wisconsin, Ralph. It's in St. Paul, MN.

http://nwc.nwc.edu/

I think that there was a school called Northwestern College in Wisconsin somewhere at one time, but I don't believe it's in existence anymore.

Thanks Gregory.  Correction so noted. 

There was a former UMAC member that merged with Martin Luther in 1995..

http://www.umacathletics.com/about/about_formermbrs.htm

http://www.closedcollege.bizland.com/wisconsin.htm

[Jonny Utah]

Ithaca had three big home games this year that meant something that boosted their attendence. (Cortland, SJF and  Alfred).

And the Cortland game only sold a fixed amount of tickets and none could be bought after that.  I would say a few thousand more would have attended that game if they were allowed to sell on game day.

Is there anywhere else in the country where d3 tickets are limited to a fixed amount for a game?  I am dissapointed that security just isnt good enough to handle crowds so a fixed attendence isnt needed.

Ithaca also started charging $ for certain sports that were free before:
------------------------------------
Ticket Information

Beginning Jan. 1, 2006, admission will be charged for regular-season games in the following Ithaca College sports: baseball, men's basketball, women's basketball, gymnastics, men's lacrosse, women's lacrosse, men's soccer, women's soccer, softball, men's swimming & diving, women's swimming & diving and wrestling.

Ticket prices for those events will be $2 (general admission) and $1 (students). Ithaca College faculty, staff and students and children under five will be admitted free.

Tickets prices for Ithaca football games will remain $4 (adults) and $2 (students and senior citizens), with Ithaca College students, faculty and staff admitted free with ID.

Ticket information about the Cortaca Jug game is available from the host school approximately two months before the date of the game.

Admission is charged for all postseason events (Empire 8, ECAC, NCAA) hosted by Ithaca College and complimentary passes are not accepted. Ticket prices are set by the conference or governing body.

(From Ithaca SI)

[Gregory Sager]

Yeah, that's the one, Ralph. I didn't realize that the now-defunct institution was a Wisconsin Synod Lutheran school. I wonder why it merged with Martin Luther College, which is all the way over in New Ulm, MN, rather than merging with nearby Wisconsin Lutheran College?

Probably just as well that it closed its doors. I don't think that we could handle the confusion of two UMAC schools called Northwestern College.

[Warren Thompson]

Yeah, that's the one, Ralph. I didn't realize that the now-defunct institution was a Wisconsin Synod Lutheran school. I wonder why it merged with Martin Luther College, which is all the way over in New Ulm, MN, rather than merging with nearby Wisconsin Lutheran College?

That's a strange one, to be sure. Turf wars? Someone's nose got out of joint? Theological warfare? (The Wisconsin Synod Lutherans, if you can believe it, are far more conservative than their Missouri Synod cousins.)

[Gregory Sager]

That's a strange one, to be sure. Turf wars? Someone's nose got out of joint? Theological warfare? (The Wisconsin Synod Lutherans, if you can believe it, are far more conservative than their Missouri Synod cousins.)

Yeah, I know. They're much more insular as well, and that insularity might explain some of the possible turf wars. Of course, there's probably a more mundane explanation for merging with an out-of-state school rather than one nearby that we just don't know.

[Ralph Turner]

Yeah, that's the one, Ralph. I didn't realize that the now-defunct institution was a Wisconsin Synod Lutheran school. I wonder why it merged with Martin Luther College, which is all the way over in New Ulm, MN, rather than merging with nearby Wisconsin Lutheran College?

That's a strange one, to be sure. Turf wars? Someone's nose got out of joint? Theological warfare? (The Wisconsin Synod Lutherans, if you can believe it, are far more conservative than their Missouri Synod cousins.)

What if there were tax consequences for the Wisconsin school to assume the assets/liabilities of another Wisconsin school that would not be the problem for a Minnesota school?

[Gregory Sager]

Tax issues would definitely fit under the rubric of a more mundane explanation than turf wars.

[smedindy]

That attendance drop is much ado about nothing. Heck, one reason may be that when the Monon Bell game is at DePauw, the capacity is over 3,000 less than it is at Wabash!

[Coach C]

tax issues?  synods?  attendance?

Huh?

What the heck is going on in this room?

C

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

What the heck is going on in this room?

Anything we want!!