Future of Division III

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

Check out the bar on the right side for some comments on an issue we've discussed here in the past.

[Mr. Ypsi]

Nice find, Hoops!  +k to you.

She was a bit wishy-washy, but I sensed that she didn't favor the ban.

[Kira & Jaxon's Dad]

There was more heat than light concerning the graduate transfer rule in D1.  The NCAA News even has a feature on it today.  (Please go to the front page of www.ncaaonline.org if my hyperlink did not work for you.)

I am watching the UMass/Montana game on ESPN2.  UMass RB #19 Tim Washington graduated from Syracuse last year. and is participating in the "D1-Semifinal".

He will have the opportunity that very few Syracuse football players will ever have...to play in a national collegiate football championship playoff game.

I believe the Florida Gators have a Defensive Back (Smith maybe) who transferred from Utah based on this rule.

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

I can't believe I'm going to say this but there's a potential situation brewing in Wisconsin that the NCAA may wish to take a look at. It hasn't been approved yet but a committee is being formed to take a serious look at it. It calls for free tuition at any UW school if you promise to remain in state for 10 years after graduation. The theory is that the increased income tax revenue would offset the tuition costs.

What about the cost of the bureaucracy required to enforce the provision ?? What if your employer transfers you out of state prior to the 10 years. Would your tuition then be pro-rated or would you be on the hook for 100% of it. What does this do to the WIAC. It's not their fault because they didn't think of the idea but if passed I think their days as D3s are ended. Granted it wouldn't be an athletic scholarship but it would give them an unfair advantage in recruiting over private schools.

I'm not a big fan of governments attempting to spend their way into prosperity because it rarely ever works out as planned. Despite the good intentions I think this is one that needs to be voted down. Wisconsin and UW-Milwaukee probably don't benefit much from it but Green Bay and Parkside would, so it's not just a WIAC/D3 matter.

This is from The Roop over on the MWC board.  I don't see it as a potential problem, but it seemed like something we could at least discuss here.

It just seems too general to affect NCAA athletics.  Massachusetts gives some pretty nice grant (see: free) money to encourage kids to stay in state for college and this money applies for either public or private schools.

[johnnie_esq]

Hoopsfan, this is a big issue in the upper midwest, I'm afraid.  Wisconsin is getting such brain-drain after graduation they have resorted to pulling people in this way.  Considering Chicago and the Twin Cities are each within 30 minutes of the Wisconsin border, the possibility of a great number of individuals from major metro areas taking advantage of this program is huge, considering that there has already been tuition reciprocity between Minnesota in Wisconsin (there are already a LOT of MN students that go to UW-XXXX for school and return to Mpls. afterward, and this would only give a greater incentive to get into UW schools).

From a NCAA standpoint, it would get around D3 regulations because athletes would not be treated differently than other individuals.  However, the St. Norbert's and upper Midwest D3s should be concerned as the possibility to go to college and graduate without outstanding loans makes these schools far more desirable.  While there will still be a need for private colleges in this area, if you were an athlete thinking of playing at, say, UST in St. Paul and be forced to pay $10k per year, or UW-RF 30 minutes away for free, the Wisconsin program is mighty enticing.

All that said, I don't think Wisconsin will do this on a broad scale-- I think they will limit it on GPA and test score requirements and keep it to a high level of individuals, who would be giving up thousands in income after graduation by staying in Milwaukee instead of moving to Chicago (The U of MN is doing something similar, but limiting to income levels and eliminating the stay requirements).  So it will help but not make a huge difference at the end of the day.

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

I'm sorry, I can't resist; it's too perfect.



I never thought I'd hear the words "Brain Drain" and Wisconsin in the same sentence.

[foul_language]

Wisconsin could keep graduates if it a) had decent jobs that, 2)paid decent money. Wisconsin always seems to put bandaids in reasonable proximity to the problem. Or not. After all, this is the state that Tommy Thompson drove into the ground, escaped, and had the nerve to come back hinting at another run for political office. With our luck, participating students will spend their ten years after graduation on Wisconsin welfare.

[Ralph Turner]

Scottie Doug, the Maryville TN fan, posted these hyperlinks concerning D3 football.  The writer is Marcus Fitzsimmons at The (Maryville TN) Daily Times.

(On the occasions that I have read this paper, I think that they do a very good job of covering D3 in their part of the country, especially Maryville TN and the GSAC.)

This four-part series covers squad size, the economics of D3 vs D1, ...

Going big: D-III football coaches make decisions on team size

Dollars & directions: D-III and D-I schools travel different paths

Commentary...I think that Mr Fitzsimmons is using publicly stated numbers on football expenses, but the cost allocations may not necessarily reflect the discount rate that athletes receive from their respective institutions.

Thanks, scottiedoug!  +1K 

[wilburt]

Ralph I think his last name is Fitzsimmons (not Fitzgerald), and yes he is a great writer for D3 sports!

[Ralph Turner]

Ralph I think his last name is Fitzsimmons (not Fitzgerald), and yes he is a great writer for D3 sports!

Thanks!  My bad!

+1 Wilburt, and Happy New Year!

[Ralph Turner]

A friend asked me to comment on the "discount rate".  The "discount rate" is a slang term for the amount of institutional aid in the form of scholarships, merit-based and finanacial need-based, that the institution gives.

If a school charges $30K in tuition but gives $15K in aid, then the discount rate is 50%.

I will apprecitate comments from other posters, but I think that the $7M football budget must include some capital expendtures, such as building and stadium expenditures.

For example in big round numbers, CNU tuition is $10K and there are 150 football players.  If they received 100% (legal) financial, that is an expenditure of $1.5M.

...unless Head Coach Kelchner's new contract included a $1.2M bonus for the USAC Co-Championship in 2006.           8)

[Ralph Turner]

Third installment on the D3 article from the Maryville TN Daily Times.

Thanks to Scottie Doug!

At the bottom of the article, he includes the hyperlink to D3hoops.com!

Nice touch!

[Gregory Sager]

This is a great series, Ralph. Thanks for linking it here.

One small correction to the third installment: The University of Wisconsin system is not composed solely of D2 and D3 schools outside of the Big Ten institution in Madison. UW-Milwaukee and UW-Green Bay are D1 schools as well.

[scottiedoug]

I might have figured Ralph would beat me to linking the Daily Times articles to this board!  Can't get ahead of that guy!

I know that at Maryville, at least, everybody (or nearly everybody) gets a "discount."  Different sizes.  Maryville is trying to provide a high quality (and "expensive") liberal arts education to young people from the middle and working classes, including an intentional focus on first generation college kids.  Since a lot of kids come to Maryville thinking they will play some sport, it is true that a lot of athletes do not pay full freight. And many do not stay involved in intermural sports, but they do not lose their "discount" for not playing.

It would be interesting and difficult to learn if there is consistency among schools as to whether the athletics budget in any way gets charged for the "discounts" given to athletes.

And here is the link to the final article:

http://www.thedailytimes.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20061229/SPORTS/612290323

[batteredbard]

The error regarding the UW system has been fixed. Thanks for pointing that out. Somehow I misplaced two campi.

Unfortunately the graphic listing each school in the Great South (GSAC) and USA South as well as selected others (UW-W, Mount Union, UT, W&J, etc) couldn't be posted to the web. It provided a breakdown of each school's spendng on athletics, on football, enrollment, tuition, number of athletes, number of football players, the precentage of the students who were athletes and percentage of student body playing football.

The numbers were obtained from each school's Title IX filing with the Dept of Education, Office of Secondary Education. If you want to look up any school's 2005-06 numbers the site is
www.ope.ed.gov/athletics

Again thanks to those who have read and commented through postings or via e-mail. And thanks again to the coaches and ADs quoted and not who took the time before the holidays to do phone interviews or met me in their office when they could have been christmas shopping.