Future of Division III

[frank uible]

I believe that is in basketball.

[Spence]

The bottom line is people are starting to figure out (not sure why this took so long) that people will pay for the privilege of playing college sports. For schools that are offering scholarships, frequently lowering their admissions standards to do so, and not seeing much if any increase in revenue, they're just throwing money down a hole.

Many NAIA schools have opted for Division III already, and I think more is to come on that. D-II is shrinking as well and isn't far from being an unviably small division.

I think there in the end there will effectively be one scholarship division: Division I. The proposed split of D-III will basically facilitate more D-II and NAIA schools that don't want to go totally Swarthmore on sports to consider non-scholarship options.

Good for schools, bad for convicted felons that want free rides to college.

[wilburt]

Good for schools, bad for convicted felons that want free rides to college.

It's not just "convicted felons" that want free rides to college.

[Warren Thompson]

I think there in the end there will effectively be one scholarship division: Division I. The proposed split of D-III will basically facilitate more D-II and NAIA schools that don't want to go totally Swarthmore on sports to consider non-scholarship options.

What you say above may well be on the mark. For the sake of argument, however, I can't envision the D2 venues, say, in Texas taking the D3 non-scholarship path. In the Lone Star State that just might be akin to fessing up that the heroes of the Alamo stood and fought only because the Alamo had no back door .... 

[roocru]

I am attending the AFCA convention in Anaheim next week.  If I hear anything of interest from the coaches point of view, I will try to post it later next week.

[martin]

It seems one of the hangups about a split is who gets the name DIII - since DIV seems like a demotion.  So how about this - split DII.  You could have DII-Scholarship and DII-Non-scholarship.  The DIII schools which want looser rules could move to DII-NS.

DIV could be for NAIA schools which cannot meet most NCAA requirements.

[ILive4This]

I am not sure its really about tighter vs looser rules... And why not take a demotion, I mean lets be real that is what it is. Just like Amherst Probably would not play Duke, should they play Albertus Magnus....I mean as much as there is parity within the top 30-40 teams in D3 there is a big big difference between the top and the bottom.

[frank uible]

Would such demotion taking be voluntary or enforced? If enforced, what would be the rules of enforcement?

[joehakes]

Don't assume that people will look at this as a demotion.  For current DIII members, change of division will be an institutional decision, as long as they fit the criteria for that particular division.  The idea of the numbered divisions using new names is being discussed, but I don't think that DIII folks have looked at themselves as a lesser grouping so that should not be a big hurdle.

[Titan Q]

I think the name of the new division is significant as it applies to recruiting.  I follow Illinois Wesleyan basketball, a program that looks for that "scholarship level" kid who either slips through the cracks or simply prefers a D3 academically vs their D2 or NAIA (sometimes even low D1) opportunities.  Guys like recent IWU 1st Team All-Americans Zach Freeman ('07), Adam Dauksas ('06), and Keelan Amelianovich ('06).  Or 2000 Josten's winner Korey Coon.

Because of the way high schoolers are misinformed by AAU coaches and overhyped by recruiting services, it can be very difficult to get student-athletes the caliber of the 4 mentioned above to even consider a D3 school.  Some are made to believe that "D3" is nothing but glorified intramurals.  I can't even imagine how "D4" would be perceived.

Unfortunate, but a reality.



 

[Warren Thompson]

Because of the way high schoolers are misinformed by AAU coaches and overhyped by recruiting services, it can be very difficult to get student-athletes the caliber of the 4 mentioned above to even consider a D3 school.  Some are made to believe that "D3" is nothing but glorified intramurals.  I can't even imagine how "D4" would be perceived.

Unfortunate, but a reality.

Cannot something be done about these AAU coaches? (In some ways, I suspect they are a bane to all divisions, not just to D3.)

[Titan Q]

Because of the way high schoolers are misinformed by AAU coaches and overhyped by recruiting services, it can be very difficult to get student-athletes the caliber of the 4 mentioned above to even consider a D3 school.  Some are made to believe that "D3" is nothing but glorified intramurals.  I can't even imagine how "D4" would be perceived.

Unfortunate, but a reality.

Cannot something be done about these AAU coaches? (In some ways, I suspect they are a bane to all divisions, not just to D3.)

Most AAU coaches are closely tied with numerous D1 and D2 staffs.  From what I have seen, they push their kids to go "as high as they can go" with very little regard for academics and the big picture.

IWU was recruiting a HS senior out of the Peoria, IL area last year year.  Scott Trost, IWU's former head coach, was also recruiting the kid to Division II Lewis U and he had several D1's talking to him as well.  Scott and I were talking about the kid in about February and he said, "Unfortunately for you guys, it'd be a real uphill battle to get a kid like that who is so prominent on his AAU team to consider a D3 school."  That stuck with me, and Scott was right.  He's now at a Division II school with no better than a so-so academic reputation.  Barely gave IWU a sniff.  Academically and from a playing time perspective, the D3's recruiting him would have been a much better fit (and money wasn't really a big factor).

But that is what I am getting it with the "D4" thing.  We're already fighting a tough battle just to get some of the top-notch kids to our schools now.

[ILive4This]

Those D4 schools though are not really even in contention for major players even with the other D3 schools and that is the point. These are schools that more or less in many of their sports just have teams and whom ever emails the coach or shows up on day one is the team they have. This is perhaps lesser so in Basketball but still.

Also for the schools that do not have many sports Basketball being one of the few, they will be D4 because of the small number of offerings, but in many cases the money going into recruiting at these schools will be enough to grab the decent local talent they get now.

[golden_dome]

Titan, the AAU problem I think is also deep in the high school ranks as well. Coaches want players to go to as high a level as possible so they boost their own resumes in the process. I don't really know what can be done about that though, just a problem that will continue for Division III universities.

Has there ever been a legitimate push to try and expand membership in Division II? I would think that is an obvious solution for a lot of the problems. The much smaller DII membership is against change for their own good which is understandable, but could the NCAA mandate some change for the betterment of the entire system? If there were scholarship reductions helping budgetary contraints, I think it would be attractive to a lot of NAIA schools and some of the current DIII schools.

Or possibly, could DIII be split into divisions with one offering limited athletic scholarships and operating under scholarship rules concerning practice and redshirtiing. Regardless of the rhetoric being passed around right now involving the DIII philosophy and academics, it is apparent that much of the complaining stems from the huge difference in aid given in DIII.

[old ends]

Ralph Turner's case in point about his School.

Administrators can change how the college looks at all sports. Some of the Centennial football games do not charge admission( Ursinus, McDaniel) or you can stand outside the fence and watch(Moravin). Then they claim that football is a drain or the Athletic Dept. budget. Other schools use ticket sales and or contributitions to improve the playing field. Dickinson is putting up lights and a new turf from contributitions, so is Muhlenberg( no lights).

So I think each college can be pro active with the sports teams or use the Swarthmore approach. OF course Swarthmore is in the Centennial Conference, hope it does not infect the rest.