Future of Division III

[Ralph Turner]

But what if the "kid" graduates in four years and... 1) stays to get a post graduate degree while participating in athletics during that fifth year? or 2) he just moves on with his life as most others who graduate do?

Aren't both of those positives?

How many D-3 institutions have post-graduate work available?

The highest profile student-athlete in the ASC most recently was HSU QB Jordan Neel who stretched his career over 6 seasons.   

Actually, any D-3 that has a master's program should be considered.

[smedindy]

Right, but what number of D-3 schools have that as an option.

[johnnie_esq]

But what if the "kid" graduates in four years and... 1) stays to get a post graduate degree while participating in athletics during that fifth year? or 2) he just moves on with his life as most others who graduate do?

Aren't both of those positives?

How many D-3 institutions have post-graduate work available?

The MIAC alone has several (St. Mary's, St. Thomas, Bethel, Augsburg, St. John's and Hamline) that have graduate programs, but as a conference, the MIAC does not allow graduate students to compete in intercollegiate athletics by the member institutions.

I believe all WIAC institutions also have graduate programs also. 

A general rule of thumb is to look for D-3 schools with "University" in their name, since the historical connotation of that term was that it awards graduate degrees.  That has changed, but it is at least a chance to briefly survey on that data.

[smedindy]

I know St. Thomas is trying to take over the Twin Cities, but many of the smaller liberal arts colleges in the east and midwest do not have a grad school or continuing education option for most all of their students.

So I can see why red-shirting wouldn't be allowed.

[johnnie_esq]

I know St. Thomas is trying to take over the Twin Cities, but many of the smaller liberal arts colleges in the east and midwest do not have a grad school or continuing education option for most all of their students.

So I can see why red-shirting wouldn't be allowed.

In my opinion, it has more to do with the custom and program in the school than the true economics of it.  For example, the NWC, a recent NAIA conference, had several schools with redshirting practices, though the conference was very similar in schools as the MIAC or the SCIAC.  While the cost appears to be prohibitive for many people in order to do it, SJU seems to have an awful lot of students who manage to use the medical redshirt for a fifth year of competition.

Keep in mind that sometimes students will take off the spring semester of their fourth year and then come back for a fifth year in the fall, graduating that December.  There's an easy way to keep the economics working for the student without doing a whole year.  That only works for one-semester sports, though-- football and baseball, for example.

[smedindy]

Some schools allow that - many others don't. Graduation is in May, period.

Most all D-1 schools have plenty of opportunities for a student to take a 5th year, same with D-2. Many D-3 institutions don't so I can definitely see why a ban on non-medical redshirting is in place.

[golden_dome]

The decision has absolutely zero to do with academics.  It seems like a situation where an athletic decision is completely driving what should be an academic situation.

Titan, if we really applied that rule there would be no athletics in Division III, because the decision to participate in athletics for a student-athlete has absolutely nothing to do with academics.

[Gregory Sager]

But what if the "kid" graduates in four years and... 1) stays to get a post graduate degree while participating in athletics during that fifth year? or 2) he just moves on with his life as most others who graduate do?

Aren't both of those positives?

How many D-3 institutions have post-graduate work available?

The highest profile student-athlete in the ASC most recently was HSU QB Jordan Neel who stretched his career over 6 seasons.   

Actually, any D-3 that has a master's program should be considered.

It's more than a matter of whether or not a school has a master's program or programs. It's what master's program or programs the school offers that often makes a difference. If your school only offers a master's in a religion-related field such as divinity or biblical studies, chances are slim that your postgraduate menu will be useful to many of your potential fifth-year athletes. Similarly, if all your school offers in terms of a master's degree is an M.B.A., and your star forward or your all-conference quarterback is looking at using his fourth year of eligibility in a postgraduate setting -- but he's a future teacher, and you don't offer an M.A.Ed. program -- then you're not going to get him to use that fourth year of eligibility at your school.

This isn't simply a theoretical discussion. There's currently a prominent CCIW athlete, whose name and school shall remain nameless, who stands to graduate in May but who has a potential extra year of eligibility to use if he so chooses. One question as to whether or not he'll use it, however, has to do with whether or not his school has a postgraduate program that is pertinent to his future career field.

[Gregory Sager]

The decision has absolutely zero to do with academics.  It seems like a situation where an athletic decision is completely driving what should be an academic situation.

Titan, if we really applied that rule there would be no athletics in Division III, because the decision to participate in athletics for a student-athlete has absolutely nothing to do with academics.

Chris, a key issue that was behind the drive to eliminate non-medical redshirting in D3 was fairness. It's much, much easier to get a student-athlete to agree to redshirt, and thus adopt a five-year academic track from the outset, when he or she is paying the comparatively low tuition of a state school. As Titan Q said, the cost of adopting that five-year academic track from the outset is usually prohibitive for a student-athlete at a private school. That's why the D3 conference that, more than any other, used non-medical redshirts (and quite successfully) before they were outlawed was the WIAC.

[golden_dome]

Chris, a key issue that was behind the drive to eliminate non-medical redshirting in D3 was fairness. It's much, much easier to get a student-athlete to agree to redshirt, and thus adopt a five-year academic track from the outset, when he or she is paying the comparatively low tuition of a state school. As Titan Q said, the cost of adopting that five-year academic track from the outset is usually prohibitive for a student-athlete at a private school. That's why the D3 conference that, more than any other, used non-medical redshirts (and quite successfully) before they were outlawed was the WIAC.

I really do understand that, but I don't like to see the redshirting discussion brought up as if it is a longstanding staple of Division III. But at some point it has to be the responsibility of each institution to decide if they want to be successful, you can only legislate fairness to a certain point. In my opinion, the redshirting issue negatively affected student-athletes in order to help out some institutions.  I never like to see student-athletes lose opportunities.

[smedindy]

I think it hasn't affected that many student athletes and there are more institutions in D-3 that would find it hard to redshirt, if not impossible, than not.

[wilburt]

I cannot stress this enough as to the economics that face the Maryville's, the McMurry's, and even the Earlham's, and possibly the Sewanee's.

If your school's endowment is over $200M, and your proportion of "athletes to total student body" is less than 10%, then you can probably de-emphasize athletics in manner that some would want.

Yes you have stressed it enough Ralph, but the financial justifications you profusely argue to justify it does not necessarily make it the right direction to head towards in the eyes of many College Presidents. 

[wilburt]

The decision has absolutely zero to do with academics.  It seems like a situation where an athletic decision is completely driving what should be an academic situation.

Titan, if we really applied that rule there would be no athletics in Division III, because the decision to participate in athletics for a student-athlete has absolutely nothing to do with academics.

Has Division III sunk to that level where the decision for many to participate in sports is independent of academics?  This problem is worse than I thought.   

[Titan Q]

The decision has absolutely zero to do with academics.  It seems like a situation where an athletic decision is completely driving what should be an academic situation.

Titan, if we really applied that rule there would be no athletics in Division III, because the decision to participate in athletics for a student-athlete has absolutely nothing to do with academics.

Chris, can you clarify what you mean?  Are you saying Division III student athletes select schools based on athletics alone?

I want to make sure I understand your point before responding.  Thanks.

[wilburt]

If this keeps up at this pace (where athletics are emphasized) don't many Division III schools know they are sliding down as slippery slope.  In time they will inadvertantly becoming like those "prep academies" that cater to athlete-student.  What's the tipping point?  Will the day come when an incoming freshman class has 75% of the class as student-athletes as opposed to 50% like Maryville?  Where does it all end?   All for the $$$$! 

See link below to NY Times article on those type of prep schools tha the NCAA has been slow to regulate. 

www.nytimes.com/2006/02/25/sports/ncaabasketball/25preps.html