FB: Presidents' Athletic Conference

[OldPhart]

With the additions of Geneva and St. Vincent to the conference in 2007 that conference will be at 9 strong and the teams will only be open to 1 non conference game? 

This probably belongs more in the General Football area, but It looks like the NCAC play 7 conference games in a 10 team conference.  Allegheny, for example, doesn't play Oberlin or Denison this year.  It is my guess that they do this so that there is a chance to tune up before conference play and that the conference isn't won or lost on the basis of a weak early performance.  I'm not sure what they do for tie-breakers though.

A casual perusal seems to indicate that the NCAC is unique in this regard.  Anyone aware of another D3 conference that doesn't play the full round-robin?

[Pat Coleman]

Just the MAC, which has 11 teams. The NEFC plays a full round-robin within its seven-team divisions plus two crossover games.

[Cleveland Cartel]

Take into consideration the Wisconsin league in d3.  They do play two out of conference games, but then when they get into conference play they just knock each other in and out of the playoffs.  It is argueable one of the toughest conferences in D3.  There are so many teams and there is so much talent on those teams it will come down to who makes the least amount of mistakes, and who can capiltalize on those.  Most of the teams in the conference are all legitimate conference and playoff contenders.

Does anyone see the PAC becoming a powerful conference with 5 or 6 teams that are consistently challenging for the conference title, and are in the top 50 in the nation?  Interesting concept here!!!!

[Dutch12]

I certainly would like to see that happen.  I think just like now it will all come down to how well each team recruits.  Adding more teams hopefully would make it more competitive, but because Genava is an NAIA school and St. Vincent will be starting the program from scratch it could also dilute the talent pool for the existing PAC teams ( especially those in western PA) which will make recruiting even more important.  It will be interesting to see what kind of impact it will have. 

[OldPhart]

Re: Recruiting

While it is possible that the overall talent pool for the PAC will be diluted, I think the addition of programs in the area to be of limited significance.  I think the change will be that schools will recruit more often from outside of their traditional regional boundaries.  In fact this appears to be the case already at Thiel.

I check out Thiel's roster and notice that there are 9 team members from Florida.   Further, I note that doing a search for "Fl" (Florida) through the list of all D3 football schools turns up no hits.  I figure that Thiel has gone out of their way to recruit in Florida - where there appears to be plenty of football talent but no opportunity if you can't make it at a scholarship school.

I expect that there are other similar opportunities out there to recruit talented athletes who have little chance of making it in a scholarship based program - but still want to play.

Am I letting out a "secret" about Thiel recruiting by bringing this up?  I doubt it.  Besides, in a recruiting program it is frequently more important to be there, in the words of Nathan Bedford Forrest,  "the fuhstest with the mostest"

[Ralph Turner]

Actually in a 9-team conference, you will play 8 conference games and have 3 dates to play the other 2 games.

The decision that several schools will face is what or whether to do with that non-conference game in weeks 7-11, when you have that obligatory open date that comes with an odd-member conference.

You may have enough options from other conferences, e.g., the ACFC, the ODAC, the USAC in the South Region, that you can fill those dates.   Or do you go out of region to find another team in a similar situation, an open date in an odd-membered conference?

[spliskin]

OP,

Not sure where you did your "FL search", but I've seen a number of Florida kids on D3 rosters (especially in the OAC). John Carrol, for example has somewhere between 15-20 FL kids on their roster. That area is ripe but also being recruited very heavily by D3 programs. Not sure how much time the other PAC schools have spent there, but I know others bank on it for talent and numbers.

RE: St Vincent - What type of academic profile do they have? Can they get anybody in or are they an "upper tier" school? Anyone know what their niche majors are?

[Pat Coleman]

I was confused, like you, especially since we had a front-page story earlier this week about a school in Minnesota which has a nice Florida pipeline as well.

Then I reconsidered the post and decided he meant there are no Division III schools themselves in the state of Florida, which is correct.

[OldPhart]

Thanks Pat - your clarification is correct.  I went to the list of all D3 schools and did a quick search for Fl schools.  It would be an interesting study to do a nationwide roster analysis to see if there are other areas where schools are doing significant recruiting outside of what might be considered their "normal" recruiting area.  That said - I am not volunteering for the task.  My spouse accepts my addiction to football at the present level - I don't think I could spend significantly more time on football without incurring substantial legal fees.

[ThielFan]

As long as we are on the subject of recruiting...  I attended and graduated from Thiel in the late 90's and watched many of Thiel's games from the stands at the field of Greenville High School during that time.  Thiel did not win a single PAC game during my studies there, and had to schedule teams like Oberlin and Bluffton to have that hope of getting one or two wins to avoid going winless.  I distinctly recall R.J. Bowers running for several hundred yards against us in every Thiel vs. GCC game, as if we only played eight guys on defense.  Can you imagine being the head coach of a college football team (admittedly Division III) and having to admit to kids that you are trying to attract to your school, "Yes, actually, we DO play on a high school field."  I still contend now (as I did at a student) that the single biggest factor that Thiel needed to become competitive in the PAC was to have their OWN field, on campus, to actually be able to play games "at home".  It says a lot to potential recruits when you're not willing to budget the expense to build and maintain your own stadium.  Not only does Thiel have their own stadium now, but the whole campus has gotten a major facelift over the last decade, and I'm sure that has helped in being competitive in recruiting student-athletes.  

Needless to say, I'm quite excited about the recent turnaround in the fortunes of Thiel football.  They need to keep their heads from getting too big over that big game last week, take these games one at a time, and win or lose, they've made Thiel alumni like me very proud!

Anyone else going to Greenville tomorrow?

GO CATS!

[spliskin]

Ahha, now I see the light. Thanks Pat for pointing that out. OP, forgive me - you are correct...no D3 schools in the state of FL. Maybe you could open up a D3 school down there & call it "Old Phart College". You could field a great football team, you'd have name recognition, and maybe your wife wouldn't mind your addiction to what happens on the gridiron if it meant furthering your "small business" venture.

Although Thielfan makes a valid point about the value of an "on campus stadium", that seems to be only one example of Thiel finally making a "commitment" to it's football program. It seems they've assembled a great coaching staff & gave them the financiall resource to build a program. When you get a commitment from the top, everything else falls into place in just a matter of time.

Has Westminster made a bigger commitment to it's program with the regime change? When they hired Hand did they increase staff, budget, etc? Anyone out there in the know?

It will be interesting also to see what type of commitment Geneva & St. Vincent make to their programs with the recent jump to D3. I'd like to hear from some Geneva/St. Vincent supporters out there who have a sense of goals/intentions.

This conference has been getting steadily stronger over the last 5 years and it proves once again that competition, in all it's forms, is a positive thing as it forces others to make a commitment to get better or get left behind.

[Bob.Gregg]

My spouse accepts my addiction to football at the present level - I don't think I could spend significantly more time on football without incurring substantial legal fees. ;

OldPhart,  just tell your spouse what the rest of us tell ours:


Yes, dear.  Anything you say, dear.

[ThielFan]

With the exception of Thomas More, the PAC seems to be expanding by attracting teams from the NAIA.  What are some of the differences between NAIA and NCAA Division III?  I had heard that one of the reasons why Westminster joined the PAC was to be able to save on traveling expenses, not to mention some of the natural geographic rivalries which exist for them in the PAC.  I would guess that this probably is relevant for Geneva as well.

Another question... once you have gathered the necessary membership for your conference champion to be an automatic qualifier, what reason would there be to further expand membership?  The PAC currently stands at nine members, two more than the required seven, and I've heard rumors of further possible expansion (perhaps Seton Hill?)

[PittTBCW]

Thiel Fan,

I am heading to Greenville this weekend!

I heard that Seton Hill will be joining the conference. Not sure if it is 100% or just a rumor.

By the way my movie quote was from Varsity Blues.....Mr. Davis was the teacher/stripper who Billy Bob asked to go to the prom with.

Another great football movie which leads me to our newest poll. Please vote!

[PittTBCW]

Let's see what movie is the best!!!