FB: Presidents' Athletic Conference

[Bob.Gregg]

I believe Thomas More tried the HCAC before and was soundly rebuffed....

I can't believe that TMC is still in the PAC with the travel, etc....
Of course, winning (multiple sports having significant conferenece success) makes it a lot easier to deal with travel....

Other than the fun of watching CMU crawl back to the PAC to help them out of the scheduling pickle, this announcement was kind of a yawner....

[Bob.Gregg]

CMU took off from the PAC after the 1989 season because, their words, "CMU and W&J are heading in different directions."

Since that time, I think W&J has made the NCAA tournament 16 times, CMU 2-3.  And W&J's berths, the overwhelming majority of them at least, were through At-Large (Pool B) selection, the same pool that CMU would/could have been chosen from.

Now, having seen Pool B continually shrinking, and no Pool C berths forthcoming, having chewed fingernails to the bone and being left out, plus the NCAC dropping their scheduling arrangement with the UAA, CMU and CWRU were stuck in a pickle vat.  And the escape hatch required CMU to go in the same direction as their former rival, W&J...

Sometimes, what you get to eat are your own old, moldy, dusty, crusty words...

[ADL70]

CMU took off from the PAC after the 1989 season because, their words, "CMU and W&J are heading in different directions."

Since that time, I think W&J has made the NCAA tournament 16 times, CMU 2-3.  And W&J's berths, the overwhelming majority of them at least, were through At-Large (Pool B) selection, the same pool that CMU would/could have been chosen from.

Now, having seen Pool B continually shrinking, and no Pool C berths forthcoming, having chewed fingernails to the bone and being left out, plus the NCAC dropping their scheduling arrangement with the UAA, CMU and CWRU were stuck in a pickle vat.  And the escape hatch required CMU to go in the same direction as their former rival, W&J...

Sometimes, what you get to eat are your own old, moldy, dusty, crusty words...

Bob, do you have an attribution for your CMU/W&J quote? 

Let's hope the PAC doesn't consult with the NCAC on how to make a non-round-robin schedule, unless it is learn what not to do.

[Bob.Gregg]

Bob, do you have an attribution for your CMU/W&J quote? 

Let's hope the PAC doesn't consult with the NCAC on how to make a non-round-robin schedule, unless it is learn what not to do.

ADL, I will have find it, though will take me some time to dig through stuff back to 1988-89...

The Exec. said that the PAC will use the Big 10 model, what they did after the admission of Penn State and prior to admission of Nebraska...we'll see exactly how that works out.

[ExTartanPlayer]

Along with them comes an unbalanced schedule (not playing everybody in the league--translation:  trouble in AQ qualifying decisions).  Everybody will play 8 conference games, including the one designated "Rivalry Week" game...Thomas More does not participate in that...

Hopefully, there'll be another addition, brining the PAC to 12 teams, split into 2 divisions each playing 1 non-conference, 3 cross-over, and 5 in-conference games prior to the final week, Conference championship and additional cross over game.  At least, that's what I'd like to see.

Despite your axe to grind with CMU, I agree with most of your statement here.  I think that the unbalanced schedule will be a PITA (see what's happened in the NCAC a few times) and I agree that it would be nice to do a two-division, conference-championship setup.

Re: your apparent disdain for CMU's old decision to leave the PAC:

Yes, I know that the CMU coaching staff is still the same as it was in 1989, but let's be fair here.  The AD from back then is long gone.  The University president is long gone.  The kids on the current CMU team weren't even born yet.  Think maybe it's time to let that one go?

While you might be somewhat pessimistic about the quality of play that CWRU and CMU will bring to the league, it's worth noting that in the past six years the two schools have managed four playoff berths and two playoff wins, and they've competed just fine against most PAC schools (you know that CMU did beat the same Grove City team that beat W & J this year, right?).  I think it's pretty safe to assume that CMU and CWRU will slide in somewhere in the middle echelon of the conference.  As programs, they're certainly at least EQUAL to Waynesburg, St. Vincent, Westminster, Geneva, Bethany, Thiel, Grove City.  Thomas More and W & J are the only PAC teams that have accomplished appreciably more than CMU/CWRU over the last six years.

[Bob.Gregg]

Yes, I know that the CMU coaching staff is still the same as it was in 1989, but let's be fair here.  The AD from back then is long gone.  The University president is long gone.  The kids on the current CMU team weren't even born yet.  Think maybe it's time to let that one go?

While you might be somewhat pessimistic about the quality of play that CWRU and CMU will bring to the league, it's worth noting that in the past six years the two schools have managed four playoff berths and two playoff wins, and they've competed just fine against most PAC schools (you know that CMU did beat the same Grove City team that beat W & J this year, right?).  I think it's pretty safe to assume that CMU and CWRU will slide in somewhere in the middle echelon of the conference.  As programs, they're certainly at least EQUAL to Waynesburg, St. Vincent, Westminster, Geneva, Bethany, Thiel, Grove City.  Thomas More and W & J are the only PAC teams that have accomplished appreciably more than CMU/CWRU over the last six years.

Your analysis on CMU/CWRU likely positioning is probably a little lower than where I would put them.  The recent manifestations of CWRU & CMU will be in the top-shelf battles for the PAC championship on a regular basis. 

And, yes, I know full well that THIS year's CMU beat THIS year's Grove City that beat THIS year's W&J squad.  Congratulations.  You know that the 2000, 2004 and 2008 Grove City teams that W&J beat (along with every other year in between them) beat the Tartans, right?  Big deal.  That, and $2.23 will get me my jumbo coffee with cream at Donut Connection in the morning.

The statement I quoted was a clear and intentional smack at W&J on CMU's way out the door, whether it was the coach or AD.  The President is gone, AD (Jim Banner) is gone.  Coach is still there.  And, I just find it ironic that CMU needed W&J & the PAC now 22 years after throwing them a backhand to the face.  You know the old saying:  Be careful what you say.  You may have to eat it some time down the road.  Chomp. Chomp.  Perhpas a little mustard or mayo would help.

By the way, I spent a decent amount of time on the CMU campus when my oldest brother was working on his Math & Comp. Sciences BS degrees.  Enjoyed the good-natured poking at being from the home of W&J, etc... But when it comes from an official of the university, that's a whole different matter.  That's all.

I'm looking forward to the resumption of the rivalry and looking forward to both CMU & CWRU coming back, and hopeful that the League will add another school to get to what seems, to me, to be an ideal setup.

[ADL70]

Does anyone know if week eleven cross-over games beyond a championship are permitted by the NCAA?  I'm not aware of any conference doing that now.   Bob is that what you were suggesting by the "additional cross over game?"  What we used to call position night in my old bowling leagues.

Some of the NEFC teams schedule ten games and can still play an eleventh game in championship game.  So you could have two OOC games [CMU and CWRU would want that], but no open dates.

Would CWRU be able to join the ECAC and have a shot at one of those last chance bowl games?

Perhaps Allegheny will get tired of trips to Indiana and return to the PAC; that would be ten teams for all other sports and twelve for football.

Neutral site for the championship, YSU?

[Ralph Turner]

Does anyone know if week eleven cross-over games beyond a championship are permitted by the NCAA?  I'm not aware of any conference doing that now.   Bob is that what you were suggesting by the "additional cross over game?"  What we used to call position night in my old bowling leagues.

Some of the NEFC teams schedule ten games and can still play an eleventh game in championship game.  So you could have two OOC games [CMU and CWRU would want that], but no open dates.

Would CWRU be able to join the ECAC and have a shot at one of those last chance bowl games?

Perhaps Allegheny will get tired of trips to Indiana and return to the PAC; that would be ten teams for all other sports and twelve for football.

Neutral site for the championship, YSU?

The NEFC plays its 10 games in the first 10 weeks of the season.

The 11th week conference championship is permissible.  The NEFC does have ECAC post-season games for those teams who qualify and wish to compete, e.g., Endicott versus Mount Ida.

[ExTartanPlayer]

The statement I quoted was a clear and intentional smack at W&J on CMU's way out the door, whether it was the coach or AD.  The President is gone, AD (Jim Banner) is gone.  Coach is still there.  And, I just find it ironic that CMU needed W&J & the PAC now 22 years after throwing them a backhand to the face. 

That's exactly my point - it was TWENTY-TWO years ago.  In all likelihood, there will not be a SINGLE player on either roster next year that was even born when the aforementioned quote occurred.  I played for CMU from 2004-07 and certainly never heard a peep about "looking down" on W & J while I was there, academically or athletically.  In fact, as we awaited our playoff destination in 2006, it was widely assumed (within our team) that we would play the Presidents, and we were genuinely excited about the opportunity to prove ourselves against what was then a consistent powerhouse in the Division III ranks.  I'm glad that it worked out the way it did - winning our first-rounder against Millsaps at home remains the single biggest highlight of my collegiate career - but I would have been equally excited to play the Presidents.

I'm looking forward to the resumption of the rivalry and looking forward to both CMU & CWRU coming back, and hopeful that the League will add another school to get to what seems, to me, to be an ideal setup.

Wholeheartedly agree here.  The 11-team arrangement will be a bit awkward.  In an effort to make this a more productive discussion, who might be a potential 12th candidate?  Most likely, it will have to be a team that we "steal" from another conference.

I see one very logical candidate - Allegheny - but it might be difficult to poach them from the NCAC.  The Gators would be an ideal geographic fit, a decent competitive fit, and they've played a number of PAC schools (counting CMU/CWRU) for the last couple years.  Bob, you'll know this - wasn't Allegheny a former PAC member as well?

Wesley's looking for a home, and they would be a doable road trip for the PAC schools, but I'd be surprised if that came through.  Besides, Wesley would kick the crap out of everyone in the PAC.

Maybe Defiance from the HCAC?  Or perhaps TMC's rival, Mount St. Joseph?  I know that you've mentioned that Thomas More has been stiff-armed when they tried to join the HCAC - what if the PAC invited an HCAC member?  MSJ might be attractive since they're already TMC's rivalry game.

[Bob.Gregg]

ExTartan, I don't see the PAC unanimously voting to add either Wesley or MSJ.  Not for competitive reasons but rather for the sheer economics of it.  Those are overnight trips, long ones and with TMC already in, that's more than what the Pres.Council would choose to do NOW if they had their druthers....

While I clearly and totally get your "22 years ago" point, it's always easier to "let it go" when you're the one throwing the backhand...
I haven't mentioned that quote on these boards before (at least, I don't remember doing so)...but I do remember it and it is ironic the situation we're all in now...that's all.

[DagarmanSpartan]

Well, as a proud CWRU Spartan, (Class of 1994), I'm looking forward to the start of PAC play in 2014.  If nothing else, it'll be fun competing for an "automatic" playoff bid.

Given that Case and Western Reserve were both FOUNDING members of the PAC, it's only natural that CWRU would come back home.

Ideally, we'll have seasons in which we win BOTH the UAA and PAC titles, since football competition will continue to be sponsored by the UAA.  We'll play 8 conference games annually, including CMU, and our other two games will be against our remaining UAA football rivals, Wash U. and Chicago.

GO SPARTANS!!!

GO PAC!!!

[ExTartanPlayer]

ExTartan, I don't see the PAC unanimously voting to add either Wesley or MSJ.  Not for competitive reasons but rather for the sheer economics of it.  Those are overnight trips, long ones and with TMC already in...

I know they're not perfect - just spitballing. 
IMHO, Allegheny would be the best fit.

[Bob.Gregg]

ExTartan, Allegheny was a previous PAC member (joined in 1958, left in 1983).

PAC Timeline
1955  Formation of PAC:  Western Reserve, John Carroll, Case Institute, Wayne State
1958  Added Allegheny, Bethany, Thiel, Washington & Jefferson
1962  Added Ypsilati (Eastern Michigan)
1966  Wayne State withdrew, Ypsilanti withdrew
1968  Added Carnegie-Mellon
1972  Added Hiram
1983  Allegheny withdrew, Case Western Reserve withdrew
1984  Added Grove City
1988  John Carroll withdrew
1989  Carnegie-Mellon withdrew, Hiram withdrew
1990  Added Waynesburg
1996  Added Alfred
1998  Alfred withdrew
2000  Added Westminster (PA)
2005  Added Thomas More
2006  Added St. Vincent
2007  Added Geneva, Chatham
2011  Added Carnegie-Mellon, Case Western Reserve (football only)

[Upstate]

Someone just posted on the E8 board in the East Region that Thomas More is traveling to Rochester to open up vs St. John Fisher and then Fisher is traveling to W&J in week 2!

Back to back PAC games for us!

Can any TM or W&J fans confirm or tell me anything about them?

What does TM have coming back from this year? They've won 31 games the past 3 years so they look to be a very, very good team!

[ExTartanPlayer]

SaintsFAN will give you the best lowdown on TMC, and Bob's your man for W+J information.  Nice to see some "marquee" nonconference matchups (given that SJF, TMC, and W+J are all generally playoff contenders) spanning across different regions.