FB: Presidents' Athletic Conference

[Ralph Turner]

Well, we needn't have worried all that time figuring out what the tiebreaker was in the TMC-CWRU scenario.

Carnegie Mellon 26, Case Western 21, FINAL.

Terrific game.  Proud of this Tartan team for keeping it together after a tough start with several close losses to finish 7-3, with a possible ECAC bowl bid coming...

Also congrats to Sam Benger, who broke my teammate Travis Sivek's career rushing record of 4,183 yards in the last game of his junior season.  Benger will have an outside shot at 6,000 career rushing yards if he stays healthy and maintains his level of production.

With Mount Union losing, the playoff bubble will be very interesting. 

Sucks for Case and the PAC that their loss wasn't earlier in the season.

Respectfully, I don't think that the timing of the loss will make a difference. You are looking at Muhlenberg with a loss to #2 JHU versus the record of CWRU against its schedule.  I think that Muhlenberg moves ahead in the Regional Ranking.

[SaintsFAN]

Well, we needn't have worried all that time figuring out what the tiebreaker was in the TMC-CWRU scenario.

Carnegie Mellon 26, Case Western 21, FINAL.

Terrific game.  Proud of this Tartan team for keeping it together after a tough start with several close losses to finish 7-3, with a possible ECAC bowl bid coming...

Also congrats to Sam Benger, who broke my teammate Travis Sivek's career rushing record of 4,183 yards in the last game of his junior season.  Benger will have an outside shot at 6,000 career rushing yards if he stays healthy and maintains his level of production.

With Mount Union losing, the playoff bubble will be very interesting. 

Sucks for Case and the PAC that their loss wasn't earlier in the season.

Respectfully, I don't think that the timing of the loss will make a difference. You are looking at Muhlenberg with a loss to #2 JHU versus the record of CWRU against its schedule.  I think that Muhlenberg moves ahead in the Regional Ranking.

Right and I agree; but the timing gives Case absolutely no chance to tidy up their resume.  It's literally the last result in their schedule.  Had it been sooner, they may have made up at least some ground.

[E.115]

Congrats to CMU on a well earned victory.

Too bad for Case.  Rivalry games are always tough... Always makes things less predictive.

Case squandered 3 scoring opportunities in the first half.  A TD reception called back by ineligible down field, and two red zone trips (inside the 5 both times?) with zero points.  A field goal on either would have changed the course of the game.

Burke injured, Phan injured, and Cuda in and out of the game from injuries.  This is where lack of depth killed Case.

And case recovers not one, but two onside kicks at the end of the game?! Regardless of anything, crazy fun game to watch.

Both teams will have so much talent returning next season as well.

[ExTartanPlayer]

Congrats to CMU on a well earned victory.

Too bad for Case.  Rivalry games are always tough... Always makes things less predictive.

Case squandered 3 scoring opportunities in the first half.  A TD reception called back by ineligible down field, and two red zone trips (inside the 5 both times?) with zero points.  A field goal on either would have changed the course of the game.

Burke injured, Phan injured, and Cuda in and out of the game from injuries.  This is where lack of depth killed Case.

And case recovers not one, but two onside kicks at the end of the game?! Regardless of anything, crazy fun game to watch.

Both teams will have so much talent returning next season as well.

Seriously.  What a crazy finish.  If my hair was longer, I'd have been pulling it out when Cline ran out of bounds on 3rd down with 30 seconds to go (I think the clock would have expired, or at least come very close, if he'd have gone down in bounds).  The rollercoaster that followed - 4th down stop by Case, safety by CMU, onside kick by Case...penalty...another onside kick by Case...just an insane couple of minutes.  Couldn't relax until the final gun.

Also, kudos to Case on a high-quality stream.  I was able to watch the game easily on my laptop with pretty good sound and picture the entire time.

[ExTartanPlayer]

I'll do a full season final rankings and post-mortem at some point, but one thing that I'd like to shine a light on is the effort by both teams in the Thiel vs. Grove City game.  Last game of the season for a pair of struggling programs, Grove City winless for a couple seasons...and man, check out the box and recap.

Thiel jumps out to a huge lead (34-7 in the second quarter).  Grove City gets a touchdown before half to make it 34-13, which might have looked just like a little consolation prize but instead signaled a rally to come.  Thiel extended the lead to 41-20 as the fourth quarter started and it may have been over, but Grove City rallied for three straight touchdowns to tie the game at 41 before Thiel answered with Ryan Radke's fourth TD pass (and sixth overall).

Kudos to a pair of teams with "nothing to play for" that apparently gave it their all in the season finale.

I'll be back with a season wrap-up (for our own little fun) of each team in the next couple days.

[SaintsFAN]

Congrats to CMU on a well earned victory.

Too bad for Case.  Rivalry games are always tough... Always makes things less predictive.

Case squandered 3 scoring opportunities in the first half.  A TD reception called back by ineligible down field, and two red zone trips (inside the 5 both times?) with zero points.  A field goal on either would have changed the course of the game.

Burke injured, Phan injured, and Cuda in and out of the game from injuries.  This is where lack of depth killed Case.

And case recovers not one, but two onside kicks at the end of the game?! Regardless of anything, crazy fun game to watch.

Both teams will have so much talent returning next season as well.

Seriously.  What a crazy finish.  If my hair was longer, I'd have been pulling it out when Cline ran out of bounds on 3rd down with 30 seconds to go (I think the clock would have expired, or at least come very close, if he'd have gone down in bounds).  The rollercoaster that followed - 4th down stop by Case, safety by CMU, onside kick by Case...penalty...another onside kick by Case...just an insane couple of minutes.  Couldn't relax until the final gun.

Also, kudos to Case on a high-quality stream.  I was able to watch the game easily on my laptop with pretty good sound and picture the entire time.

I couldn't believe what I was seeing when Cline went out of bounds.  Not a bad year for the kid, though.  He was really on-target today and more so, it seemed, on that last drive.  That drive was key; they started really deep in their own territory and Case kinda bottled up Benger on the first play or two.  And I felt terrible for Cuda with that injury.  They really need to dial him back next year, it's very unrealistic that a QB who runs that much won't get at least nicked up.  It's hard enough on your body taking hits in the pocket. 

If Case finds a RB like Benger, Tarrant or Pitts - look out.  They'll average 60/game.

[Bob.Gregg]

CWRU would have gotten in the tournament had they beaten CMU.
They would have been an undefeated PAC co-champion and would have received a Pool C bid.
For the second time in the last 15 years or so, the PAC would have had two teams in the field.
But, they lost.

I hope, somehow, Case gets in, though I can't see how that happens.
Of course, it could have happened had the PAC actually had everyone play everyone else.
I don't see that the PAC would have gotten two invites in that scenario, but that's the breaks.

The solutions are many to the current situation in the PAC, and most of them are simple.

How we got here:
CWRU & CMU came back to the PAC in football, looking for a FB home.  The League accommodated them.
However, CWRU & CMU didn't REALLY come home.  They just rented a vacation house on the beach.
The League accommodated them.  And that's the League's fault.

If you want to "come home," come home.  Tell the UAA you're leaving and be done with it.
The League then sets up a 10-game, 11-week schedule where the PAC champion is determined on the field because everyone played everyone else.

OR, CWRU & CMU bring someone else with them to the PAC with divisions established and the League hosts a Week 11 crossover format (similar to DII PSAC).
And a League champion is determined on the field.

OR (and this one won't happen) the PAC loses a team, CWRU & CMU clear sufficient weeks to play 9 conference games, and the champion is determined on the field.

For some strange reason, I keep coming back to the same premise--the champion is determined on the field.....

Am I missing something?  Isn't that SUPPOSED to be where a champion is determined?

[Pat Coleman]

So, as you probably know, the UAA is no more after this year and Case and CMU won't be playing Wash U and U of Chicago going forward. You don't really want to play a 10-game conference (closed/inbred) schedule because it will flatten everyone's SOS to within a few points of .500, but I assume the PAC is going to a nine-game conference slate. That means this situation will happen only half as often.

[Bob.Gregg]

I'd be totally fine with a closed schedule, so long as everyone plays everyone.  SOS won't matter for the AQ.
If you go 9-1 and don't make the NCAA's, join a long list of heart-broken Larry's & Joe's that didn't do what they needed to do.

CWRU plays BOTH Chicago & Washington in 2017, at least according to their official website Future Schedules link.

CMU, not sure about the Tartans, but Rochester is definitely on the 2017 schedule (can't find a "future schedule" on CMU's site).
Rochester and Claremont-Mudd-Scripps are on the Tartans' 2018 schedule, with C-M-S and MIT on the 2019 docket.
CMU clearly has no intentions of only playing 9 PAC games.

So, based on the 'cut & paste' from CWRU's future schedule, they won't face TMC or W&J again next year.
I really can't feel too sorry for the Spartans if they don't make it to the dance.  They've received (and will again next year) more than sufficient accommodation.


CWRU 2017 schedule (from their site).
Sept. 2   @ Chicago &
Sept. 9   Bye
Sept. 16   GROVE CITY *
Sept. 23   WAYNESBURG *
Sept. 30   @ St. Vincent *
Oct. 7   BETHANY *
Oct. 14   @ Thiel *
Oct. 21   @ Geneva *
Oct. 28   WASHINGTON-ST. LOUIS &
Nov. 4   WESTMINSTER (Pa.) *
Nov. 11   @ Carnegie Mellon * &

[E.115]

So, as you probably know, the UAA is no more after this year and Case and CMU won't be playing Wash U and U of Chicago going forward. You don't really want to play a 10-game conference (closed/inbred) schedule because it will flatten everyone's SOS to within a few points of .500, but I assume the PAC is going to a nine-game conference slate. That means this situation will happen only half as often.

I agree with Pat with other benefits for not locking yourself in a full conference schedule for the reasons outline above.  Although before joining the PAC, Case Western Reserve had never even had the opportunity for an AQ.  Now, it seems having the flexibility in scheduling allows for more avenues for both AQ and Pool C. 

I'd be totally fine with a closed schedule, so long as everyone plays everyone.  SOS won't matter for the AQ.
If you go 9-1 and don't make the NCAA's, join a long list of heart-broken Larry's & Joe's that didn't do what they needed to do.

CWRU plays BOTH Chicago & Washington in 2017, at least according to their official website Future Schedules link.

CMU, not sure about the Tartans, but Rochester is definitely on the 2017 schedule (can't find a "future schedule" on CMU's site).
Rochester and Claremont-Mudd-Scripps are on the Tartans' 2018 schedule, with C-M-S and MIT on the 2019 docket.
CMU clearly has no intentions of only playing 9 PAC games.

So, based on the 'cut & paste' from CWRU's future schedule, they won't face TMC or W&J again next year.
I really can't feel too sorry for the Spartans if they don't make it to the dance.  They've received (and will again next year) more than sufficient accommodation.

CWRU 2017 schedule (from their site).
Sept. 2   @ Chicago &
Sept. 9   Bye
Sept. 16   GROVE CITY *
Sept. 23   WAYNESBURG *
Sept. 30   @ St. Vincent *
Oct. 7   BETHANY *
Oct. 14   @ Thiel *
Oct. 21   @ Geneva *
Oct. 28   WASHINGTON-ST. LOUIS &
Nov. 4   WESTMINSTER (Pa.) *
Nov. 11   @ Carnegie Mellon * &

Case Western Reserve's non-conference games can be an added bonus too, right?  WashU could have potentially won the PAC if roles were reversed. if you'd swap WashU for W & J on the schedule, for example, it would have weakened Case Western Reserve's resume even further had they ended the year 9-1 with the same loss to rival Carnegie Mellon.  Only having Thomas More on the schedule would have made a difference.

[Bob.Gregg]

You miss the point...
Based entirely on the League schedule and early results, when the TMC Saints ran the table and CWRU didn't play them, the Spartans STILL didn't have an opportunity for an AQ.  So, your "avenues for both AQ and Pool C" were dead ends. In fact, they were nearly "paper alleys"...

WashU being swapped for W&J doesn't mean a thing.  If WashU played in the PAC, they'd likely be about where CWRU, CMU and W&J are....behind TMC, on the outside of the NCAA tournament.  CWRU playing WashU did nothing for the playoff picture when all was said and done.

CWRU should have had TMC on the schedule.  They should have had W&J on the schedule.
The PAC should have NEVER allowed this mess to get to this point.

Let me repeat something I said a long time ago when this problem arose:  IF CWRU runs the table and goes 10-0, they're in the dance.  Period. Without debate.  Using the D3Football.com's projectionists' words:  there's no way any committee leaves a 10-0 CWRU team on the sideline when setting the bracket.

The clarity of the PAC AQ should never have been compromised by the accommodations afforded CWRU & CMU upon their return to the League.  The fact that it bit CWRU is the hind-quarters is more than appropriate.

[SaintsFAN]

Very intriguing match up:  Witt at TMore. 

This will be an excellent game; The Saints better be ready to play.  Witt players under Joe Fincham  really play hard.

Look at what happened at TMC in 2001 at TMC.

[WashJeff68]

Saints Fan,

I know a lot can change in 2 years, but W&J played Witt in the first round in 2014 and won 41-25. The next week they went North to Alliance, stayed close for the first half, then got blown out 67-0. My guess is Vegas odds favor TMC.

Jeff in Tennessee

[SaintsFAN]

Saints Fan,

I know a lot can change in 2 years, but W&J played Witt in the first round in 2014 and won 41-25. The next week they went North to Alliance, stayed close for the first half, then got blown out 67-0. My guess is Vegas odds favor TMC.

Jeff in Tennessee

Agreed.  Alot can change and I do believe TMC would be favored in this one (home games are worth 3 points in the tournament, also).  Hansen has the Saints favored as well.  I just hope they aren't looking forward to the following week.  Wittenberg can sting them, if thats the case.

I'll be putting a preview out later today/tomorrow on the game.  Some things I've noticed kind of jumped out at me. 

[WashJeff68]

Three PAC teams will be playing this weekend in the ECAC tournament in Philadelphia at Franklin Field:

W&J plays Brockport (7-3) Friday at 8:15 PM

Westminster plays Utica ((7-3) Saturday at 11:00 AM

CMU plays Salisbury (7-3) Sunday at 11:00 AM

Others playing are Kean (6-4)  Cortland (5-5) Frostburg (9-1) St John Fisher (9-1) SUNY Maritime (6-4) and RPI (5-5)

Sad that CWRU can't have a post season game, but having 4 PAC teams still playing ain't bad.

A little disappointed at the records of some of the participants. Are there better teams that aren't participating? I know teams have to apply, and perhaps some chose not to. I know W&J has declined to apply in the past.

Jeff in Tennessee