FB: Presidents' Athletic Conference

[spliskin]

did carlisle deserve to be pac player of the week for having 18 tackles last week.... A little bit late but what does everybody think???

I said this in an earlier post, but I'm surprised he was credited with 18 tackles. He wasn't that much of a factor in the game and the majority of his tackles were 5-10 yards downfield. Thiel's OL should have been "conference players of the weeK" for the snow plow type movement they got on the TMC defense.

[Dutch12]

Bob,

Quick question, a few weeks ago Pat mentioned he didn't think the "Northern" teams in the South region were very strong this year.  I know Thiel has been getting better and they beat W&J in OT this year, but in your opinion how does this years W&J team compare to last years or prior W&J playoff teams.  I know W&J won two playoff games last year and because you've seen them play I'm just wondering if you think W&J isn't as strong this year or Thiel has gotten that much better.  Maybe a combination of both? 

Do you think if (hopefully when) both W&J and Thiel make the playoffs they will stack up well against other playoff caliber teams.  Just asking your opinion because you've  had exposure to the playoffs and playoff caliber teams with W&J thoughout the years. 

[SaintsFAN]

I may be biased, but hey tackles are tackles.  I understand your point about making a tackle 5 yards downfield, but I think you can attribute that to him having to get off blocks and then make the play....sounds like our D-line got whipped.

Cleveland,

I agree. 

[spliskin]

Saints Fan,

Your point is valid and on target. I guess I don't put a lot of stock into numbers when measuring a player's performance. In watching the game, it didn't seem/feel like Carlisle made 18 tackles & I didn't hear "Mark Carlisle on the tackle" 18 times. Not that I was watching Carlisle every snap or even paying attetion to the game announcers every word. I just didn't have that feel.

I know that teams count tackles using different methods (even though they are all supposed use the same guidelines). I think Grove City is guilty of padding tackles for their players as they consistently have several defensive players miles ahead of the pack in tackles (there simply were not that many plays run in games for it to be possible for 3-4 guys to be in the double digits each week). I'm not accusing TMC of padding the tackle chart so don't take offense, I'm simply relaying my observations.

To me, a player who deserves "defensive player of the year" accolades isn't neccisarily the guy with the most tackles/interceptions, ect. It's the guy who requires every offense to change their schemes or check the play away from him because they are so scared of what he can do to you.

Mike Wilmus is an example at W&J - He may not have All-American numbers but that's more because everybody is afraid to throw to his side due to his ability level.

George Kumnji (sp?) was this type of player for Thiel over the last 4 years. Teams had to triple team him and/or change their protections to keep him from getting to the QB. This freed up other DL to sack the QB and spread out the numbers but had they single blocked him he would have led the conference in sacks all 4 years by a landslide.

Unfortunately, when the conference coaches vote for these accolades they pay too much attention to stats and, at least in my opinion, miss the boat on the true difference makers.

I've only seen Carlisle play one game and my opinion probably isn't worth a whole lot but from that one game, I'd be surprised if he were voted "defensive player of the year". Again, just my humble opinion.

[Cleveland Cartel]

Spliskin,

Carslisle's name was repeating in my eardrums on the way home after that game!  He was on every tackle and yes 5-10 yards down the field, but that was the difference in the score being 24-14 and 42-14. 

Also GCC I am not sure about padding the stats but I will say they had a tough linebacker Choby who graduated last year and was a all conference pick first team the last few years.  He used to always have a ton of tackles for some odd reason.  Just like Carslisle he was always around the ball and in on alot of tackles, but his tackles on the season were just absurbed compared to anyone else in the conference at that position.

In doing research last year Choby had 107 tackles credited
Casey Diemert linebacker for thiel had 71 who was also a first team selection with Choby
Eric fields from WJ had 87 tackles last year and i believe it said 89 the year before.
WJ had two guys in the last four years post 100 tackles and taht was in the same season 2001 BJ Swartslander and Dietz with 115 114 resepectively.

Call it what you want heres the stats!

[Bob.Gregg]

Dutch,

Thiel has been improvely tremendously over the past four years.  W&J this year is about the same level as last year, perhaps a little improved defensively.

I would agree to some extent with Pat's assertion.  Of course, the northern tier teams weren't thought to be any great shakes last year, and the Presidents went to the National quarterfinals.

If both the Tomcats and Presidents get in, they both have things in their favor, and things against them:

Thiel's two overtime games will have provided some testing, something newcomers to the NCAA's can benefit from.

The Tomcats will likely be at home, both a blessing and a curse.  When you go on the road, the only thing you have to really worry about is playing the game.  When you host, especially the first time, there are myriad things to take care of.  And whether you have a great committee and staff or not, there are things that come up in front of the coaches that can not help but distract them.

Finally, the Tomcats, while getting the final score victory (what really matters), were fortunate to win the game.  Chris Edwards threw four regulation interceptions and the game still went to overtime.  I know the Tomcats know of their good fortune that day.  Their fans should also consider it.

The Presidents are playoff-tested, but if they end up in the Texas sub-regional, that is going to mean very little.  Not saying that they'd die in the desert, but what UMHB did to the Red & Black last year was very real.  And very painful to watch.

An improved defense will help, but will it be enough.  The offense must move the ball on the ground (+ short pass game) when the other team knows that's what the Presidents want to do.

W&J's special team play has been outstanding, with one glaring exception--punting.  Everything else grades to a B+ or higher.  The Presidents are woeful punting the ball, but Zach Zebrasky's insertion as punter helped last week.  This could play a key role in mid-November.

The pairings are going to tell alot about how long either can play.  Perhaps, though according to all the gurus not likely, we'll face off in Greenville on the 19th.

[Pat Coleman]

I would agree to some extent with Pat's assertion.  Of course, the northern tier teams weren't thought to be any great shakes last year, and the Presidents went to the National quarterfinals.

By playing other northern tier teams. That doesn't prove anything.

[Bob.Gregg]

Perhaps, departed President Brian C. Mitchell should have taken some of the W&J endowment fund and told the NCAA not to worry about that "geography clause".  W&J would pay for any travel required to reach the "southern teir" of the region.

What W&J did last year in the playoffs was against the teams the NCAA scheduled them to play.  Period.

Northern tier (2-0), southern tier (0-1).


Perhaps contributing your appearance fees for ESPN's 15 minutes of appearing to care about D-III could persuade the NCAA to delete that provision from the RULES.

[SaintsFAN]

Bob,

The Tomcats will likely be at home, both a blessing and a curse.  When you go on the road, the only thing you have to really worry about is playing the game.  When you host, especially the first time, there are myriad things to take care of.  And whether you have a great committee and staff or not, there are things that come up in front of the coaches that can not help but distract them.



Very, very true.  We hosted our first playoff game ever in 2001 against MacMurray...the NCAA has you do many, many things to get the place ready to host a Playoff game.

[rabriggs]

I think Grove City is guilty of padding tackles for their players as they consistently have several defensive players miles ahead of the pack in tackles (there simply were not that many plays run in games for it to be possible for 3-4 guys to be in the double digits each week).

That is one of the most ridiculous statements I have ever read. What factual evidence to you have to support that?

Look at the PAC stats this year. http://www.pacathletics.org/FBHTML/confldrs.htm#conf.wi2

Grove City's strong safety, Aaron Margo is fifth in the PAC in tackles. The inside linebackers are 9th and 12th, respectively. I would not consider that ahead of the pack.

Mike Choby had 107 total tackles last year, 53 solo and 54 assists. In 2004, there were a total of 515 tackle opportunities for Grove City (runs + completions - TDs). I don't know about you, but for an inside linebacker to make 20 percent of a team's tackles seems rather plausible.

For you to come on here and question the integrity of Grove City sports information is quite comical to say the least. I would put our statcrew up against anybody's at any level, anytime.

[Dutch12]

Sounds good Bob, hopefully both teams will prove they deserve to be in the post season when the time comes.  

You are right about the game going into OT this year even with 4 int's during regulation.  I guess we could argue about whether or not Thiel was just "fortunate" Edwards threw 4 picks or if they caused Edwards to throw 4 picks !    It would be hard to beat W&J again for sure, but I would love to see a rematch somehow to settle that claim.  

[spliskin]

Cleveland,

I'm not sure what your point is but I wasn't suggesting that a team can't have 2+ guys with 100+ tackles over a season. Obviously they can. What I am referring to is this:

How is it possible for there to be 55 solo tackles in a game where the offense has a total of 50 offensive plays? Answer........it's not possible. Iv'e seen this happen with stats on many occasions. The only plausible explanation is this - There was an error in the compilation of the tackle chart, either accidentally or intentionally. This is the reason (and the only reason) I say that I don't put stock in tackle numbers as this scenerio proves that they can easily be skewed.

I am not at all suggesting that this happened in the TMC vs TC game as I have no idea. I do know that the original NCAA play by play released after the game said that Carlisle had 14 tackles, then by the time it hit the web he had 18 tackles posted (teams watch the tape and adjust the tackle chart then submit the "official" tackle chart so this means that the TMC coaches found 4 additional tackles that the game statistician must have missed). Game statisticians make errors and perhaps they did in his case as well.

You may be correct about Carlisle's tackles......it sounds like you were more in tune to the game announcer than I was or maybe watching him more closely than I was.

Regardless of how many tackles he made, I simply did not see him as an "impact" type player as has been portrayed. You were at the same game I was and you obviously did see him as such a player. I respect your opinion and we can agree to disagree on that point.

[spliskin]

rabriggs,

You're absolutely right. I have no factual evidence of that nor have I researched it in Grove City's case. I gave a hasty opinion soley based on watching them play over the years. My impression from merely watching their games was that their guys were credited with more tackles than what I witnessed, but I never bothered to get a game film and count them myself.

I was out of line with that accusation without doing the appropriate research and officially retract my statement about GCC. My sincerest apology to the GCC sports information staff, coaches, and players. I intended no harm but thank you for pointing out that my statement was harmful.

PS: Welcome to the board

[Bob.Gregg]

...PS: Welcome to the board

Actually, spliskin, RA has been around for a long time.  He's actually been PUBLISHED, not just POSTED....

You might want to step back from this.

[PittTBCW]

I believe he is the SID from GCC!