FB: Presidents' Athletic Conference

[E.115]

How incredibly impressive GCC running the table on CWRU, CMU, and W&J ... back-to-back-to-back

Getting some national attention:  https://twitter.com/RedditCFB/status/1708269733814898770

EDIT: And they've already beaten Westminster!

[mikefln]

Mine as well.  A small worry I have is that Grove City has had to really bring it a few weeks in a row and it can be hard to get fully "up" for a big game several weeks running. 

Look, I get it, I was a player, I would love to think in GCC's shoes I would be bringing the same intensity or even more to this week's game than last week's, especially knowing that a win this week puts them firmly in the driver's seat for the league title and playoff berth.  I'm oddly pulling for them even though it's probably the end of CMU's playoff chances if they win.  But I kinda worry they're going to be running out of steam and W&J might be a little too much.

Pretty much agree with mikefln's power rankings and breakdown.

How incredibly impressive GCC running the table on CWRU, CMU, and W&J ... back-to-back-to-back

Getting some national attention:  https://twitter.com/RedditCFB/status/1708269733814898770

EDIT: And they've already beaten Westminster!

It is incredibly impressive feat GCC just did.  I think what ExTartan was worried about of GCC not being up going into W&J, is actually more of a worry now that the gauntlet is over.  This is a classic trap game.  Very easy to lose focus this week. 

I find the Top 25 to be shameful.  I understand the PAC is not going to have 3 teams ranked, but GCC is only #23 after 3 weeks of beating quality teams and they are one spot behind number 22 MBH.  How long does MBH get to rest of their previous laurels?  I understand they lost to 3 highly Quality teams, but they lost all 3.  That has to mean something.  Is there another team that played 3 quality programs like GCC just did and win all 3?  They should be somewhere around 15-20.  Then CMU drops out of the ranking (if it happened last week I would have understood it better) and into other receiving votes this week after a win.  W&J went from other receiving votes (basically ranked #28) to no votes at because they lost by 7 points against a top 25 team that they were away for. 

Someone please make sense of this for me. 

[Pat Coleman]

Mine as well.  A small worry I have is that Grove City has had to really bring it a few weeks in a row and it can be hard to get fully "up" for a big game several weeks running. 

Look, I get it, I was a player, I would love to think in GCC's shoes I would be bringing the same intensity or even more to this week's game than last week's, especially knowing that a win this week puts them firmly in the driver's seat for the league title and playoff berth.  I'm oddly pulling for them even though it's probably the end of CMU's playoff chances if they win.  But I kinda worry they're going to be running out of steam and W&J might be a little too much.

Pretty much agree with mikefln's power rankings and breakdown.

How incredibly impressive GCC running the table on CWRU, CMU, and W&J ... back-to-back-to-back

Getting some national attention:  https://twitter.com/RedditCFB/status/1708269733814898770

EDIT: And they've already beaten Westminster!

It is incredibly impressive feat GCC just did.  I think what ExTartan was worried about of GCC not being up going into W&J, is actually more of a worry now that the gauntlet is over.  This is a classic trap game.  Very easy to lose focus this week. 

I find the Top 25 to be shameful.  I understand the PAC is not going to have 3 teams ranked, but GCC is only #23 after 3 weeks of beating quality teams and they are one spot behind number 22 MBH.  How long does MBH get to rest of their previous laurels?  I understand they lost to 3 highly Quality teams, but they lost all 3.  That has to mean something.  Is there another team that played 3 quality programs like GCC just did and win all 3?  They should be somewhere around 15-20.  Then CMU drops out of the ranking (if it happened last week I would have understood it better) and into other receiving votes this week after a win.  W&J went from other receiving votes (basically ranked #28) to no votes at because they lost by 7 points against a top 25 team that they were away for. 

Someone please make sense of this for me.

Guessing that once Grove City defeated W&J, voters consolidated around two PAC teams instead of three on their ballots and they voted more for Grove City, the clear best team of the three. Before this week, there was still doubt.

I'm not going to re-litigate Mary Hardin-Baylor's ranking here. You can find lots of discussion on it in the comments on the older Top 25 polls. But, in short, it does mean something. It means UMHB needs to be ranked behind UW-Whitewater, UW-River Falls and Trinity (Texas).

[mikefln]

Guessing that once Grove City defeated W&J, voters consolidated around two PAC teams instead of three on their ballots and they voted more for Grove City, the clear best team of the three. Before this week, there was still doubt.

I'm not going to re-litigate Mary Hardin-Baylor's ranking here. You can find lots of discussion on it in the comments on the older Top 25 polls. But, in short, it does mean something. It means UMHB needs to be ranked behind UW-Whitewater, UW-River Falls and Trinity (Texas).

Pat, I appreciate all the hard work you put into this site, I know it is not easy and I know I am just a guest here on your forum.  I do not understand the logic of your response.  With that logic, GCC should have been ranked ahead of CMU last week once they lost to them.   

[Pat Coleman]

Guessing that once Grove City defeated W&J, voters consolidated around two PAC teams instead of three on their ballots and they voted more for Grove City, the clear best team of the three. Before this week, there was still doubt.

I'm not going to re-litigate Mary Hardin-Baylor's ranking here. You can find lots of discussion on it in the comments on the older Top 25 polls. But, in short, it does mean something. It means UMHB needs to be ranked behind UW-Whitewater, UW-River Falls and Trinity (Texas).

Pat, I appreciate all the hard work you put into this site, I know it is not easy and I know I am just a guest here on your forum.  I do not understand the logic of your response.  With that logic, GCC should have been ranked ahead of CMU last week once they lost to them.

Understandable. Grove City was still splitting "PAC No. 1 team" votes with W&J until they beat W&J. Once they beat W&J and was clearly "PAC No. 1" on every ballot, then you saw their point total rise in accordance with that.

[WRMUalum13]

Mine as well.  A small worry I have is that Grove City has had to really bring it a few weeks in a row and it can be hard to get fully "up" for a big game several weeks running. 

Look, I get it, I was a player, I would love to think in GCC's shoes I would be bringing the same intensity or even more to this week's game than last week's, especially knowing that a win this week puts them firmly in the driver's seat for the league title and playoff berth.  I'm oddly pulling for them even though it's probably the end of CMU's playoff chances if they win.  But I kinda worry they're going to be running out of steam and W&J might be a little too much.

Pretty much agree with mikefln's power rankings and breakdown.

How incredibly impressive GCC running the table on CWRU, CMU, and W&J ... back-to-back-to-back

Getting some national attention:  https://twitter.com/RedditCFB/status/1708269733814898770

EDIT: And they've already beaten Westminster!

It is incredibly impressive feat GCC just did.  I think what ExTartan was worried about of GCC not being up going into W&J, is actually more of a worry now that the gauntlet is over.  This is a classic trap game.  Very easy to lose focus this week. 

I find the Top 25 to be shameful. I understand the PAC is not going to have 3 teams ranked, but GCC is only #23 after 3 weeks of beating quality teams and they are one spot behind number 22 MBH.  How long does MBH get to rest of their previous laurels?  I understand they lost to 3 highly Quality teams, but they lost all 3.  That has to mean something.  Is there another team that played 3 quality programs like GCC just did and win all 3?  They should be somewhere around 15-20.  Then CMU drops out of the ranking (if it happened last week I would have understood it better) and into other receiving votes this week after a win.  W&J went from other receiving votes (basically ranked #28) to no votes at because they lost by 7 points against a top 25 team that they were away for. 

Someone please make sense of this for me.

IMO the D3FB poll is the best poll in all of college football in terms of fairly and accurately ranking teams. What GCC did is very impressive but the D3FB Poll isn't some wild outlier.The AFCA coaches poll only has GCC at #25,  the Massey computer rankings have them at #19, and Logan Hansens' Computer rankings put the Wolverines at #37.

If you single out D3Fb you can't leave out the AFCA or the computers.

[mikefln]

And so the PAC continues to move into the new media age. As I'm sure you know it is much broader. W&J now streams MW Basketball, Lacrosse, field hockey, and baseball (there may be others). The production has become more professional. I'm sure this is happening at CWRU and CMU and many other D III schools.

So I went to the PAC app on Roku to watch the GCC vs W&J game.  It was not available on the app and I had to watch that game on my phone.   In fact, there was only 1 football game broadcasted on the app, Bethany's broadcast of their game against CWRU.  I understand that CWRU and CMU are not using the app, without knowing the reasons why, I am assuming it is because they are just affiliate members.  Ok no issue.  But Allegheny & Geneva had/have both men and women's soccer, volleyball, field hockey, etc broadcasted but not the football game.  At least GCC and Thiel did not broadcast any other games, they are consistent with not broadcasting on the app.

Does anyone know the reasoning why some schools utilize the app to broadcast all their sports but football.  And why some schools choose to not utilize the app the app at all?

[mikefln]

IMO the D3FB poll is the best poll in all of college football in terms of fairly and accurately ranking teams. What GCC did is very impressive but the D3FB Poll isn't some wild outlier.The AFCA coaches poll only has GCC at #25,  the Massey computer rankings have them at #19, and Logan Hansens' Computer rankings put the Wolverines at #37.

If you single out D3Fb you can't leave out the AFCA or the computers.

I agree with you that D3FB is the best poll to the point that I do not even look at the others.  I realize I came off strong and I would like to apologize for my harsh tone. 

With that said, I was not really complaining about GCC being #23 other than MBH being #22.  I get they are new to the polls this week, and with more football to be played they will get higher as other teams lose.  My heartburn had more to do with CMU and W&J both teams with the exact same resume of losing at GCC by 7 are being treated different. 1 is still receiving votes and the other is not.  make no logical sense.  I understand that the voters are not just looking at the PAC and cannot know all the nuances going on.  But 2 teams that were already on the voter's radar, having the same exact results in consecutive weeks, should be treated equally imo.  I would have actually been ok with neither of them getting votes instead of 1 getting them and the other not.  What did CMU do better than W&J to this point in the season? 

[Pat Coleman]

And so the PAC continues to move into the new media age. As I'm sure you know it is much broader. W&J now streams MW Basketball, Lacrosse, field hockey, and baseball (there may be others). The production has become more professional. I'm sure this is happening at CWRU and CMU and many other D III schools.

So I went to the PAC app on Roku to watch the GCC vs W&J game.  It was not available on the app and I had to watch that game on my phone.   In fact, there was only 1 football game broadcasted on the app, Bethany's broadcast of their game against CWRU.  I understand that CWRU and CMU are not using the app, without knowing the reasons why, I am assuming it is because they are just affiliate members.  Ok no issue.  But Allegheny & Geneva had/have both men and women's soccer, volleyball, field hockey, etc broadcasted but not the football game.  At least GCC and Thiel did not broadcast any other games, they are consistent with not broadcasting on the app.

Does anyone know the reasoning why some schools utilize the app to broadcast all their sports but football.  And why some schools choose to not utilize the app the app at all?

I'm guessing some of the inconsistencies have to do with the KDKA broadcasts, and they had the Allegheny-Carnegie Mellon game.

Here's the Grove City-W&J game: https://livestream.com/accounts/13431056/events/10935965/videos/237753710

[Ice Bear]

IMO the D3FB poll is the best poll in all of college football in terms of fairly and accurately ranking teams. What GCC did is very impressive but the D3FB Poll isn't some wild outlier.The AFCA coaches poll only has GCC at #25,  the Massey computer rankings have them at #19, and Logan Hansens' Computer rankings put the Wolverines at #37.

If you single out D3Fb you can't leave out the AFCA or the computers.

I agree with you that D3FB is the best poll to the point that I do not even look at the others.  I realize I came off strong and I would like to apologize for my harsh tone. 

With that said, I was not really complaining about GCC being #23 other than MBH being #22.  I get they are new to the polls this week, and with more football to be played they will get higher as other teams lose.  My heartburn had more to do with CMU and W&J both teams with the exact same resume of losing at GCC by 7 are being treated different. 1 is still receiving votes and the other is not.  make no logical sense.  I understand that the voters are not just looking at the PAC and cannot know all the nuances going on.  But 2 teams that were already on the voter's radar, having the same exact results in consecutive weeks, should be treated equally imo.  I would have actually been ok with neither of them getting votes instead of 1 getting them and the other not.  What did CMU do better than W&J to this point in the season?

I've regrettably done this many times over the years. It's all good. Sometimes our love and passion of D3 football gets emotional. Pat has always been very forgiving with thick skin to boot. +k

Just curious, and please don't think I know the answer to this, or that I have a confident and snarky thought that I'm ready to respond with. Do you think Grove beats UMHB head to head? I really respect what Grove has done and will continue to root for them.

[mikefln]

I've regrettably done this many times over the years. It's all good. Sometimes our love and passion of D3 football gets emotional. Pat has always been very forgiving with thick skin to boot. +k

Just curious, and please don't think I know the answer to this, or that I have a confident and snarky thought that I'm ready to respond with. Do you think Grove beats UMHB head to head? I really respect what Grove has done and will continue to root for them.

Yes, I am a little embarrassed by my words/actions.

Fair questions and to answer it, I would say yes they could beat UMHB.  But that really does not mean much.  Upsets happen all the time, and while GCC beating MBH would be an upset, it would not be a huge one this year, in my mind.

If you don't mind, I would like to word your question a little differently than how you asked.  To me there are 2 better hypothetical question to ask, and they are:

1) IF UMHB and GCC played at a neutral site who would win more games?  IMO UMHB would probably win 6 or 7 of those games compared to GCC's 3 or 4 wins. 

2) is if GCC would have played GCC schedule would they have done better?  This is a little tougher to answer because football is about execution, match ups, and momentum.  2 of those 3 are tough to compare.  Execution you can compare by who has the better players and better coaching.  But the focus/discipline aspect of execution cannot be easily to compare.  If I had to answer that I would say yes.  GCC would have won at least 1 of the 3 games that UMHB lost.  Probably the River Falls or Trinity game imo. 

That seems contradictory at first glance for me to say in question #1 UMHB is superior, yet I think GCC would have a better record against UMHB schedule.  That is the point, it is all theoretical.  So we go with what we know. What we know is GCC is undefeated and UMHB lost 3 games, and until they win a few games, imo they should not be ranked.

[E.115]

My heartburn had more to do with CMU and W&J both teams with the exact same resume of losing at GCC by 7 are being treated different. 1 is still receiving votes and the other is not.  make no logical sense.  I understand that the voters are not just looking at the PAC and cannot know all the nuances going on.  But 2 teams that were already on the voter's radar, having the same exact results in consecutive weeks, should be treated equally imo. 

Hey now, CWRU lost to GCC by less than 7

[mikefln]

Hey now, CWRU lost to GCC by less than 7

I respect CWRU and they defiantly came the closest to beating GCC this year.  My comments in my power rankings from last week and this week state as much.  With that said it is time for my power rankings.

My Power Rankings after week 5 - This week there are changes at the top and bottom.  This really is starting to become a top strong and bottom weak conference.  There is not much in the middle. With 11 teams, one would expect 4/5 teams to be in the middle, but that is not the case at this moment.

Tier 1

1) Grove City- Huge statement they made.   IMO opinion no team in the nation faced as tough of a 3 week schedule and came out on top, better than GCC.  If they avoid the letdown this week, they win the PAC as they control their own destiny and they are entering the easier part of the schedule.  Again, the goal is to just avoid the let down after 3 tough emotional wins in a row.
2) W&J- Tough loss to who is most likely to be the PAC Champs this season.   They still have a few tough games ahead in CMU and CWRU
3) CMU – A nice bounce back win against a respectable Allegheny team.  2 tough games ahead which includes their rival game against CWRU who just may win out themselves

Tier 2

4) Case- If the go 1-1 against W&J/ Case and if  the loss is by a TD or less, then they could make a case for being tier 1 assuming they win their other games. 
5) Westminster- off this past week
.

Tier 3

6) Allegheny- I think they are more Tier 3 than Tier 2 right now.  If they beat CWRU or West, I may bump them to that category. 
7) SVC- A good win for them this past week. Looking to see continuous improvement.
8) Thiel-  1st time in 6 years they have won 2 games in a season.  Hopefully they can pick up a full more and build off this year going forward
9)Geneva- They really should be performing better than they do.
10) Waynesburg- At some point you need to win.  I called them scrappy and I still think that, but losing to Thiel is not a good path forward.
11) Bethany- They still have Geneva, Waynesburg, and SVC to try an pick up a win.  If they win 2 of those 3 I would say it was a good season for them.  If they can win all 3, then that is a great season and something to build off of.


ATTENDANCE: taken from the box score of the PAC web site.

Grove City Attendance: 5000
Allegheny Attendance: 4834
Geneva Attendance: 4320
Bethany Attendance: 1895
Thiel Attendance: 1724


2023 Total attendance

Allegheny- 8,229 (3 games)
Bethany- 2,991 (2 games)
Carnegie Mellon- 2,150 (2 games)
Case Western Reserve- 1,642 (2 games: they did not report their 1st game)
Geneva- 9,475 (2 game)
Grove City- 15,200 (3 games)
St. Vincent- 3,250 (2 games)
Theil- 3,177 (3 games)
W&J- 4,740 (2 games)
Waynesburg- 2,495 (3 games)
Westminster- 1,727 (1 game)

[Pat Coleman]

IMO opinion no team in the nation faced as tough of a 3 week schedule and came out on top, better than GCC. 

I'd encourage a look at UW-Whitewater.

[Ice Bear]

I've regrettably done this many times over the years. It's all good. Sometimes our love and passion of D3 football gets emotional. Pat has always been very forgiving with thick skin to boot. +k

Just curious, and please don't think I know the answer to this, or that I have a confident and snarky thought that I'm ready to respond with. Do you think Grove beats UMHB head to head? I really respect what Grove has done and will continue to root for them.

Yes, I am a little embarrassed by my words/actions.

Fair questions and to answer it, I would say yes they could beat UMHB.  But that really does not mean much.  Upsets happen all the time, and while GCC beating MBH would be an upset, it would not be a huge one this year, in my mind.

If you don't mind, I would like to word your question a little differently than how you asked.  To me there are 2 better hypothetical question to ask, and they are:

1) IF UMHB and GCC played at a neutral site who would win more games?  IMO UMHB would probably win 6 or 7 of those games compared to GCC's 3 or 4 wins. 

2) is if GCC would have played UMHB schedule would they have done better?  This is a little tougher to answer because football is about execution, match ups, and momentum.  2 of those 3 are tough to compare.  Execution you can compare by who has the better players and better coaching.  But the focus/discipline aspect of execution cannot be easily to compare.  If I had to answer that I would say yes.  GCC would have won at least 1 of the 3 games that UMHB lost.  Probably the River Falls or Trinity game imo. 

That seems contradictory at first glance for me to say in question #1 UMHB is superior, yet I think GCC would have a better record against UMHB schedule.  That is the point, it is all theoretical.  So we go with what we know. What we know is GCC is undefeated and UMHB lost 3 games, and until they win a few games, imo they should not be ranked.

Solid post Mike and I concur with much of your thinking here.