FB: Presidents' Athletic Conference

[PACalum]

never said they scheduled them on purpose as easy games- just happened to end up that way

[PACalum]

I thought this was interesting- it is a division III version of the BCS system with strength of schedule playing into the equation, along with quality of wins---check it out-----> http://www.masseyratings.com/rate.php?lg=cf&sub=III&mid=6]http://www.masseyratings.com/rate.php?lg=cf&sub=III&mid=6

[Pat Coleman]

Yep, Massey does Division III football. I would avoid putting too much stock in any computer ranking this early in the season, though -- any system like that needs more games to be played.

[Bob.Gregg]

never said they scheduled them on purpose as easy games- just happened to end up that way

You DIDN'T say they scheduled them on purpose???

"it means in their opening games every year they play sub-par teams, in other words, teams they can beat up on."

[Cleveland Cartel]

Burgh, my comment about the lack of competition WJ has played for their first 4 games the last 4 years has been down.  Bob Gregg showed the massey ratings which has WJ ranked in the 70's and Thiel in the mid 20's.  Don't get me wrong I do not take those for what they are worth, but there is one thing that comes out of those rankings.  The level of competition that Thiel has played compared to WJ is stronger.  Bob Gregg brought to the table some excellent stats on the history of those teams that WJ has played, but we must be honest with ourselves.  Over the last 5  years these teams programs E&H, Tri-State has not been successful.  While Allegheny has tasted playoffs recently they are nowhere close to the late 80's early 90 playoff and national championship teams.  Hanover also has seen WJ in the playoffs years ago, but now they seem to be off track with their history and level of play. 

Overall, WJ has continued to recruit finer players and also this is a kudos to the coaching staff for their efforts.  Anyone who has followed the PAC especially in the last few years knows that they do not have a strong first 4 games, and they always crush their opponets. 

Am I making a valid point here, or am i seeing this all wrong?  Let's hear the room speak up about this topic, and I would like to hear what burgh boy has to say in defense of his beloved Presidents. 
You stay classy PAC board!

[Cleveland Cartel]

Another random rant that I forgot to add was the d3football rankings which has Thiel actually ranked 7th and WJ is ranked 80th in the country.  In noway are those two comparable or justified.  They are simply based on the limited amount of games the teams have played, and those teams current records.  Overall the 4 teams that WJ has played has a combined record of 1-9, and Thiel's is better but not outstanding by any means at 4-7.  Also WJ has played one more game than Thiel due to their bye week they had earlier in the season.  Stay Classy PAC Board!

[the_burghboy]

Quite frankly Cleveland, I think you couldn't be more wrong. 

Until the Tomcats prove otherwise, Allegheny and E&H are considered better programs than Thiel.  Toss Hanover in there as well.   

I'm not much into some formula that a guy on his couch comes up that is applied through three weeks of September play.  Schedules are at times made years in advance, and as I will explain below, other factors in my opinion come into play.  You also want to look for opponents with a solid tradition of winning programs, playoff representation, and even coaches/represenatives that could provide support for you when it comes to the playoffs, especially when you are in a conference that doesn't have an automatic bid.

In the meantime, take these numbers into account when questioning recent W&J opponents:

*  Hanover has a winning tradition, with only one non winning season (.500) in the previous six years, and four appearances in the NCAA playoffs. 

*  Emory and Henry over that same span has not fared as well, but still has four seasons of .500 or better with one appearance in the NCAA playoffs.   As Mr. Gregg mentions, there is a history between the two teams in earlier years and a great playoff contest that many familiar with the program still talk about to this day. 

*  Allegheny:  No seasons of under .500 football and one NCAA appearance in as many seasons.  A regular season record of 35-26 during that time.  Again, Mr. Gregg notes the national championship (I believe it was 1990). 

I also know from personal experience that the program has historically had a difficult time scheduling games outside of the conference. 

Not to paint with a broad brush, but there are teams that have enough competition in their own conference and don't need 'tested', or teams that may have playoff aspirations and think playing W&J would risk their chances should it come to an playoff bid.  I remember dealing with that as a player, and getting responses similar to that in recent years when not excited about the upcoming schedule.   As I noted before, scheduling is also attempted quite soooner than year to year in many cases. 

I understand the hatred toward W&J and it's grip on the conference.  If I didn't have my own ties, I would be probably wanting someone else to finally upend them as well.   If you want to say they 'haven't been tested', I will grant you that.  If you want to say that this is their first 'real opponent', I could see you point there as well for that opinion. 

That said, comments about them being 'known' for not scheduling competition is inaccurate, and implies that they are looking for teams to push around before conference play.  Maybe that wasn't meant to be the implication, and maybe I'm reading it wrong. 

If anything, W&J has been 'known' for not playing in a competitive conference.  I applaud Thiel and Waynesburg in recent years for their quest to change that, but can it be done for a period of time that improves the reputation of the PAC?  I think that should be the real issue.

Sorry for the rant. 

[Cleveland Cartel]

Burgh Boy,

Great Reply and you had some terrific stats to back your statements.  I said quite a few things in my rants, but you definetly got the 3 main points out of it.  First being that their competition has been sub par.  Secondly they do not schedule any tough opponets and you proved otherwise, and lastly that Thiel is the first test for the Presidents.  My question is how much of the history of a team is really taken into consideration?  I agree with what you replied back with, and not to be mistaken either that a reason for the constant blowouts in the first 4 games of the season is also to the school and the coaches for their hardwork on recruiting.  They are staying above the game and trying to make it to the big dance and have done better than anyone else in the PAC.  The game this weekend should be exciting and a true test for both of these teams.  Goodluck to both sides.  Thanks for the reply burgh boy.  Now if we were talking about the Pirates and Indians it might be a little more one sided! J/K

You Stay Classy PAC board!

That said, comments about them being 'known' for not scheduling competition is inaccurate, and implies that they are looking for teams to push around before conference play.  Maybe that wasn't meant to be the implication, and maybe I'm reading it wrong. 

[the_burghboy]

  My question is how much of the history of a team is really taken into consideration? 

I don't know if I'm qualified to answer that in all honesty, as I'm not tied to the program other than following them.  The playoff system has changed through the last several years, but I can assure you that if W&J wanted to pile on more wins, they would have lobbied to play their conference opponents twice through the years 

I do know (and this may date me a bit) that when I was involved with the program, they attempted to play programs that would broaden their profile and strengthen it from a regional and national perspective. 

Ithaca and Cortland State were on the schedule for some of those years.  W&J beat Ithaca when they were the defending National Champions in 1989, and while that may seem like a long time ago, adds to a program through recruiting and most of all, respect outside your area.   

I remember playing teams in other regions in attempts to 'build a case' should your team be on the bubble come playoff time.  Teams like Widener and Juniata in the eastern part of the state come to mind (where teams like Lycoming were a power).  I remember when Carnegie Mellon defected from the PAC W&J attempting to play teams in their conference.   There was definitely a method to who the program would schedule.  It may not succeed with win/loss records at the time when you play them, but it's far from what you were implying earlier. 

Again, I'm not tied to the program, but in my opinion there were years where maybe W&J was not as deserving of a playoff spot, but did receive one due to their reputation as a program.  I think the foundation for that reputation in part was because their willingness to play opponents as I have mentioned through the years.  Those are things you can't just put into a formula in my opinion.


Just my two cents. 

 

[Pat Coleman]

Cleveland Cartel:

Those are the NCAA's rankings. We just publish them. And in your selective reading, you must have missed this:

"This measure is even more meaningless in September and early October, with the majority of the schedule yet to be played."

[Cleveland Cartel]

Pat,


Another random rant that I forgot to add was the d3football rankings which has Thiel actually ranked 7th and WJ is ranked 80th in the country.  In noway are those two comparable or justified.

This is from the post of the D3football rankings post earlier, and yes I definetly understand that those rankings are meaningless and are not comparable or justified to the actual teams. 

What we can take from this is the quality of the opponets early in the season.  Obviously the computer does not know that WJ is a top 10 team, been dominant inside and outside of the PAC, and has made and gone deep into the playoffs in previous years. 

Pat what is your take on the game this weekend and also about WJ's first 4 games this season?  Also predictions for the rest of the PAC games that are taking place?

[PACalum]

My picks for this week:

Grove City over Bethany-- expect a close one
Waynesburg over Thomas More-- TMC gets a taste of the upper half of the PAC--but a close game
Thiel over W&J-- W&J gets dethroned on homecoming

anyone else?

[Pat Coleman]

If you continue to refer to the NCAA's Quality of Wins ranking as "d3football's ranking" then I have no desire to answer your questions. I quite clearly spelled out whose rankings those are, not only on the page on which they appear, but also in my earlier message.

[OldPhart]

Ok PACAlum, I'll bite -

Bethany  - Bethany has improved.  They have been able to generate some O but they have generated a fair number of turnovers too.  If they can hang onto the ball they should end the day a touchdown over GCC.

Waynesburg - TMC has shown they can play D - but against the lower half of the PAC.  I see Waynesburg providing a reality check for TMC - by at least 10 and probably more.

W&J - My heart says Thiel & my head says W&J.  I think that  Thiel fields a strong team this year.  That said,  injuries, the loss of their strong Freshman punter to the guards (he is now serving in Louisiana as part of the post-hurricane Katrina contingent), and W&J on their home turf holds Thiel at bay for another year.  Despite this, I expect Thiel to keep it within 10.

C'mon Tomcats - prove me wrong!

Now in the "step-sister" games:

PAC newcomer Geneva (3-1) will bow to St. Francis (3-0).  I expect they will keep it within two scores though.

St. Vincent - remains undefeated and unscored upon for the 2005 season 

Geez - maybe we could actually start a PAC pick 'em thread if there is enough interest out there. 

[xfactor]

Log on next friday for the XFACTOR 'cause he's back like scoliosis.