FB: Presidents' Athletic Conference

[the_burghboy]

Also wanted to give my congrats to TMC.  They are the better team, and program.

I could get into what I saw, what my thoughts are, etc.  It may not be fair because this is the first W&J game I attended this year, and that's very unusual of me to do.

That said, I will say that W&J needs to be judged on what the program is TODAY, not on the 'reputation' they have in terms of national recognition.  With all due respect and playoff appearances aside, it's a program that has lost the PAC more than won it under the current staff.

Maybe I'm just getting older, and need to change my expectations.   I did enjoy my afternoon and will wish another matchup was better than the Pitt/Syracuse game I'll sit through a week from now. 

All the best to TMC in the playoffs!

[Cleveland Cartel]

Saints Fan,

Congrats to TMC. THey came they saw the Conquered. Impressive display of defense by both teams. I do hope both make it into the tournament to represent the conference. I agree WJ's lack of out of conference games hurts them if they do not win the conference. I don't know where this takes WJ in the future. Burgh Boy is right about the new coaching regime and winning the PAC conference. Banasiak was an unbelievable recruiter. I think this is healthy for our conference with different teams winning the crown. For WJ fans its a turning of the tide. THis was their conference for the last 20 plus years. MY thoughts are we shoudl get used to this.

The Cincy roots are going to go along way for Tmore. If they can continue to get Div 1 talent from the local areas they will thrive in the PAC. I've had this belief in my mind for awhile, but I question how long Tmore will stay in the PAC. I have friends and family in Cincy. THey have kids who play athletics at Tmore. They dont travel to many away games due to the distance from Tmore. With the bulk of the schools in this conference in Western PA and Northern WVA. Tmore seems to be the odd team out in Kentucky.

Saints Fan, Any thoughts to the schools consideration of a conference closer to the school's location?


Congrats to all PAC teams with a W. Good Luck to all next weekend as the regular season is coming to a close.

[the_burghboy]

Burgh Boy is right about the new coaching regime and winning the PAC conference. Banasiak was an unbelievable recruiter. I think this is healthy for our conference with different teams winning the crown. For WJ fans its a turning of the tide. THis was their conference for the last 20 plus years. MY thoughts are we shoudl get used to this.

Good to read from you CC.  I know I have gone on that rant before here, but think there is a significant drop in recruiting from the Luckhardt and Banaszak
years.   Some of that may be out of their control, or was de-emphasized though the years Mitchell was president. 

That being said, I don't know if I buy it entirely, and don't really like to hear the quotes I'm reading about how the PAC has 'never' had such a good team other than W&J in the conference.  Waynesburg was supposed to be 'back' when they won the PAC in 2003, and the same comments about 'more competition' in the conference was discussed here when Thiel beat them in '05 for the conference.

That is meant as no disrespect to those teams, or TMC beating them the last two years.  I do think it's time to stop making excuses from the W&J end about the competition improving and admit you have fallen back.

That's my two cents.  For better or (probably) worse.  Beating Bethany, Waynesburg, and being served up for a playoff game or two doesn't really mean much IMO.   

[SaintsFAN]

Saints Fan, Any thoughts to the schools consideration of a conference closer to the school's location?

Not really.  The school tried to get into the HCAC earlier this decade but was shot down by Admins from Mount St. Joe and Hanover.  It would've been a great fit for the school, despite what was said about the college.  MSJ just doesn't want to compete in the same conference as TMC in any sport --- period.  Not sure the reasoning behind it.  But the President had said it was because of the academics not matching up with the HCAC Mission.  That statement was ridiculous, the academic program is on par if not better than it is at MSJ --- and then you look at some schools who are behind TMC academically like Defiance and Manchester.  TMC won't be leaving for the Heartland, they just went out and got Earlham from the NCAC --- THAT should improve the football part of the equation for them (tongue in cheek).

[PAC Homer]

Great moves at halftime to get #1 into the game. If TMC gets versatile in the passing game, they will be in the Final 8 teams this year...Hats off to O-coordinator for mixing it up.

[Cleveland Cartel]

Saints Fan,

Good to hear a vote of confidence for Tmore to stay in the PAC. I think this conference will be tougher for WJ to win every year due to the recent additions. Consider Geneva who is 7-1 as we speak and mowing through the competition. TMore has stepped up their game with back to back PAC championships now. Yes, as burgh boy mentioned, Waynesburg and Thiel has stepped up to take the crown away from WJ recently.

Burgh boy, 10-0 seasons and playoffs have become a familiar sight for all President Fans. Its a changing of the guard just like the change in time this weekend. You and Bob Gregg have more insight to share on the recent drop off in talent. I would be very interested to hear Bob's take this dicussion. I remember the likes of Joey Nichols and Brian Dawson tearing through the competition and deep into the playoffs. Their players were always bigger faster and stronger than everyone in the conference, but i believe this is no longer the case. Siranni hasn't done anything to show he doesnt deserve to be in the position he's in. Its very true this conference has changed immensly from the days of just the orginal PAC members. It has become more competitive.

Wayenesburg has dipped into Pittsburgh taking talent away from WJ. GCC, Thiel, Westminster, Geneva, St. Vincent,  Slippery Rock (Div 2) ,and even Carnegie Mellon too. With the WPIAL being the dominant league in PA. You have many Div 3 schools fighting for that talent in Pittsburgh. I really believe Tmore from a demographics is setup beautifully to continue its dominant ways in the PAC. Especially if they can bring guys in from Akron, OH. THat is a backyard of Mount Union, Walsh, Malone, and nearby Cleveland schools BW, and JCU.

[SaintsFAN]

Thomas More is now #11 in the country according to this website.  I definitely feel they are a Top 10 team..

That said, the Saints owe Geneva big time.. Time to go back to work.

[Bob.Gregg]

Institutionally, Mike could never get the kids that Lucky, and even Banny to some extent, got.  That's a fact.

However, that didn't appear to be the issue yesterday, not to me, anyway.

Let me start off by saying, unabashedly, that I never played the game.

But, the obvious emotional difference between the teams in the second half was THE difference in the game.

W&J's defense has upgraded significantly over the past four seasons.  They are an outstanding D-3 defensive unit this year, and held a significantly talented TMC offense to two scores, one coming off a W&J turnover.  The W&J defense played well enough to win the game yesterday, well enough to win by several scores.

The Presidents offense drove 80 yards on 12 plays late in the first quarter, and NEVER gave anything close to the impression that they were all that excited again.

In fact, the most emotion I saw came on a 3rd & 2 play in the fourth when Shumacher was QB.  He was supposed to throw the quick slant to the left to Besong.  He looked left, then took off running to the right and was dropped.  Besong was clearly agitated and Coach Mike showed a little angst.  If thrown and caught, it would have moved the chains.  And that HAD to be the goal at the moment.  But Shu bailed on the play.  And the Presidents never threatened...

The offensive line, while undersized, has done an adequate job.  But let's be clear...there is not a Pintar or Pivnik among them.  Sometimes, you just have to play bigger, faster, stronger than you are.

The difference in the game yesterday (and last year at TMC) was the appearance on one man--Will Imposition.  Will entered the game early in the third quarter and Imosed TMC's will on the Presidents.  Plain & simple.  And the Red & Black didn't answer.

The next two weeks, and the national conference call will be a very pensive time on Lincoln Street.

Will Mike Sirianni ever get admitted the academic borderline players that Lucky got in under Howard Burnett?  Absolutely not.

Will Mike get the same kids that Banaszak was able to recruit?  No, but he doesn't have the Super Bowl rings that Banny has.

Will the Presidents hold their own in the recruiting?  Yes, they will.

But once they get here, as I said yesterday, there comes a day, a game, a play when it's time to simply Man Up and make a play.  The biggest games are usually won by the team that does that.

Yesterday, that team was Thomas More, not W&J.

[SaintsFAN]

Viewing from a distance, Bob... I agree with you.  TMC has been very evenly matched with W&J the past two years in terms of talent.  The combination of coaching and talent they are able to get admitted into school is definitely NOT the issue.   

I had an old coach of mine who used to say.... "it ain't about the X's and O's.... its the Jimmys and Joes" --- TMC Jimmy and Joes have an attitude about them... As CC said... more and more kids being brought into the program were winners at some big-time High Schools in Cincinnati.  Played in front of some big crowds in some big games before TMC...

Now, I think W&J has players from the schools similar to that.  They'll show that the next 3 weeks of their season... yep, I said it... 3 weeks.  I feel their defense is tough... Caponi has them playing in that MUC-esque 4-2-5.   They are definitely a top 15 team in the country this year.  They just were shocked (IMO), by the speed and guts of the Thomas More defense... and never recovered from that shock.


I still don't know how TMC rushes 3  and gets to the QB though... when I heard that, I was puzzled... especially with one being Tyler Owens who is 200 lbs at nose tackle --  don't get me wrong.. he's very quick, but if two guys were assigned to him...

What changes (if any) do you guys see for this weekend with Bethany --- whom, btw, I would NOT want to be this Saturday. 

[Bob.Gregg]

The Presidents can play without emotion this week and win comfortably.
I don't expect any changes.

That being said, I wouldn't want to be Bethany this week either.


I've heard the "Larry's & Joe's" many times, particularly from John Luckhardt, along with this one:  "Scheme all you want, Bobby.  If they don't do it, it ain't gettin' done!"

W&J is rooting for TMC to run the table.  Go, Saints!

[touchdownman2010]

WOW, I have been an active D3football fan for many years. I have followed the PAC as much as possible but I have never felt the need to get on this board until now.  I usually enjoy hearing what Bob and Saintsfan have to say because they report on the two best teams in the PAC. Also, the occassional post from Pat Coleman is always inspiring.

But, now to some points I have to make. After the Presidents lost the PAC title for the second year in a row, it seems that everyone wants to call W&J a failure under the current regime. We have Bob who wants to go back to the Banny and Lucky days of the past. I would love to know how many of the players from Banny's era were recruited by Sirianni since he was there as the OC and even the oline coach who has been there as well.

Also, if you follow W&J football, they have been in the playoffs for the past 5 seasons. We are sitting here critiquing a program over four losses. One to Waynesburg, One to Thiel and two to Thomas More. Also, in the past how many games did you have to win to be a PAC Champs 4 maybe 5? So my question to Bob, Is it more important to win the PAC or make the playoffs and have a chance to win a National Title?

If I recall even with these so called great recruits during the Banny era, they never made it past the second round of the playoffs. The current regime as already done that twice with their own recruits.  I think W&J program is just fine. It has not fallen, I would say it has actually progressed more players on the roster than ever. Let's give credit were credit is due, Thomas More is a good football team and well coached.

So for everyone saying that W&J has fallen, you are crazy. The program continues to carry an X on its back. They are still the most respected program in the PAC. So, yea they may not have won the PAC championship but they continue to make the playoffs and win playoff games. I do not remember a W&J team that would rather win the PAC than win a couple of playoff games.

I guess the W&J program even carries an X on its back on this board as well. Maybe you are right Bob, maybe there needs to be more emphasis put on winning the PAC. But, until W&J stops making the playoffs and stops winning playoff games than I think they are just fine. 

Look at the winning percentages of all regimes at W&J. I believe it is something like .83 to .78... Which one would you want?

[SaintsFAN]

I don't think Bob was saying the recruits were the problem.  They are definitely still getting high level kids into school at W&J... and its definitely NOT Coaching... Sirrianni is one of the best at the Division 3 level  ---- I think he's just saying Thomas More imposed their will in each of the last two years they've played.  

W&J's playoff run last year was not unexpected --- they were a great team.  The only difference between the past years and now, is there is a team competing with W&J --- that has a different name than Waynesburg and Thiel.  

There are 3 very good teams in this conference.... Thomas More, Washington and Jefferson and Geneva.  I feel the games played between these three will have the PAC Representatives ready for Playoff Football.


W&J is a playoff team in 2009.


EDIT:

PAC Homer --

The Saints didn't throw downfield at WJ on Saturday because of the winds.  They are not scared to go downfield as I had brought up to you 10 days ago.  They have Farley (#1),  Olthaus (#86), and Kendall Owens as their primary deep threats while Brinck (#88 at 6'4''), Ganshirt (#83), and Doucette (#22) can either go up and get the ball or run down a long pass.  Trevor Stellman is an extremely smart, accurate and efficient passer.  He processes the information (Pre-Med Major) quickly in this offense and will continue to get the ball to his playmakers.

These kids made play after play through 7 weeks of the season, as Stellman has complete trust in each.  At several of the games I've been to, Stellman has been able to throw the ball up into traffic and have these kids come down with the ball.  If TMC gets calm winds these next two weeks, look for them to put the ball into the air --- and these kids will make the plays.  This is the best group of WR's/pass catchers I have seen at Thomas More since the days of my WRs in the late 90s (who hold most of the WR records).  In terms of athletic ability --- they are probably the best TMC has had as a unit since I've been around the program (1995--present).

[touchdownman2010]

Thanks SaintsFan for your quality input.

Back to Football anyway... Does Thomas More get shifted out of the South again or where do we see them in the playoffs?

Also, interesting point can the south get two pool c bids with UMHB and W&J?

[Bob.Gregg]

2010, I NEVER called W&J a failure.  I do NOT long for a return to the Lucky or Banny eras.  Period.

My point wasn't about Mike's personal ability to recruit.  My statement was, INSTITUTIONALLY, the rules have changed about who can get in.

And I do follow W&J Football, have for more than 30 years.  They've been to the NCAA playoffs 20 times in the most recently completed 24 seasons.  And I'm not sitting here critiquing a program at all.   The success the Presidents have enjoyed over the past 25 years is what nearly every athletic programs aspires to.

I have, however, written extensively over the weekend about ONE HALF of one football game, and specifically about the OFFENSIVE UNIT'S presentation in that half.  Period.

The performance of the offense after intermission Saturday, Oct. 31, vs. Thomas More, is THE issue that I've talked about since the end of the game.

You write as if winning the PAC title and making the playoffs/national title shot are mutually exclusive.  TMC has both.  W&J could have the second.  We'll see how they respond.

But here's my question:  with the PAC title, the AQ to the national playoffs and a shot at the national title on the line, the offense gave us all what they gave us Saturday afternoon.  Are you pinning YOUR playoff/national title shot on that?  If so, let me be the first to tell you that you'll be disappointed.

What some of the great W&J teams of the past have done is what remains to be seen if the 2009 W&J team can do:  Learn hard, tough, valuable lessons from a loss and put those lessons to use in the playoff run that (hopefully) lies ahead.

The issue that I continue to fail to understand is this:  How can an entire unit LOOK so flat, so disinterested, so uninspired for an entire half of football AFTER intermission, in a game against a team that A) beat you last year, B) is undefeated, and C) is trying to take YOUR automatic berth into the national playoffs away and force you into Pool C's dark, mysterious abyss?

Craig Besong appeared to be one of a very few offensive players who gave a damn.

Tell me I read the whole thing wrong.  Tell me they were all fired up.  Tell me that I should stick talking about bands that play at halftime.  Tell me that I should stick to broadcasting and leave all the motivation stuff to somebody else.  Tell me that I don't know a damn thing about football.

But do not tell me that, after Saturday's second half performance, that
1)  all is well and
2)  that we'll make a nice extended NCAA tournament run and
3)  that losing to Thomas More in a game where the defense allowed just 14 points wasn't really that big a deal.

I don't know how long you've actually been a D3Football fan.  The screenname of "Touchdownman2010" doesn't lead me to think it's been all that long.  I've been at this thing for more than 30 years, 25 straight calling W&J Football.  I've seen losses that, while difficult to take, were losses where it was all left on the field.  And Saturday, I saw a loss that should have been a win, and there was plenty left in the tanks of far too many people, in my opinion.

Enjoy the abyss.  You don't seem to mind that road at all.  Hope it works out for all of us that have enjoyed W&J Football.

[touchdownman2010]

Bob,

Loved the response. Glad to hear that you are only making all of these institutional allegations on one half of football. Anyway, you are right and I will be interested in to how W&J responds. I am sure you have seen other halfs of football like that from some W&J teams. I can recall one against Salisbury and another one against Buff State. Also, one against Allegheny.

But as you stated, all of those teams bounced back. I am interested to see what happens. I have no doubt that the coaching staff will have this group of guys prepared.

The difference I see is at the quarterback position as well as the lack of weapons besides Besong. All of the W&J team in the past have had multiple WRs that the quarterback could target. Also, this was the first big game for inexperienced quarterbacks. 

I will say this much. I do not remember too many W&J team win with defense in the past and I think that is definitely were the strength of this team lies.

Thanks for the valid points Bob. I look forward to hearing you on the radio.