FB: Presidents' Athletic Conference

SaintsFAN · September 17, 2016, 03:45:25 PM

Well, Thomas More's post season started today and the Saints were crisp. Looks like the defense played well while the offense ran 83 plays.

Coughlin was held to 170 yards and threw 2 INTs. Thomas More's defense held W&J to 10 first downs.

I'll have to check if the 1st team defense gave up the long TD pass.
The Saints got away with Tarrant not playing the 2nd half - hope he's okay.

I feel like this team will be a handful for the rest of their schedule.
On to next week's playoff matchup.

WashJeff68 · September 17, 2016, 04:50:40 PM

Went to the TMC W&J game today with my wife and son.

Best things were that the rain held off and I got to spend some time with my son and visit with some fellow alums and player parents. W&J had a good turnout.

7-3 at half time. Both defenses played well. W&J really shut down TMC''s rushing game. I don't know what happened to CT Tarrant, but he was not a factor.

Second half did not go well for W&J. The TMC quarterback played an outstamding game. W&J's defense was on the field to long as TMC shut down the W&J offense. A couple of breaks that went TMC's way didn't help.

TMC is the better team. Hope both W&J and TMC win out, and perhaps the PAC will have two teams in the playoffs - recognizing CWRU and Westminster may have some say in who those teams might be.

Bob.Gregg · September 17, 2016, 08:36:53 PM

W&J Head Coach Mike Sirianni, via Twitter, following today's game: "Humbled"

WashJeff68 · September 18, 2016, 06:09:03 PM

As I posted, I went to the W&J/TMC football game yesterday and shared my thoughts afterwards.

As I was driving home with my wife I thought about SaintFan's comment about there being an underground move to oust TMC from the PAC for winning too much. We all know about football and women's basketball, but what's the total picture? I spent some time (it's raining here and I enjoy looking into this kind of stuff) at TMC's website. I was absolutely amazed at what I learned.

Here is a summary of TMC's NCAA post appearances. Safe to assume most if not all were the result of a PAC championship:

Since 2000 Last Since 2010
Baseball 7 2016 5
M Basketball 1 2000 0
W Basketball 14 2016 7
Football 6 2015 3
M Soccer 7 2015 6
W Soccer 6 2015 5
Softball 7 2015 4
Volleyball 14 2015 5

here is the link:

http://www.tmcsaints.com/information/ncaa_history

According to the TMC web site in 2015 there were 959 full time traditional students at TMC.

http://www.thomasmore.edu/academics/iped_enrollment.cfm

According to the latest rosters there were 293 male athletes competing in 8 sports with 37 +/- coaches. There were 155 female athletes competing in 9 sports with 27 +/- coaches. The total number of students athletes at TMC is 448 or 46.7% of students. That number is, of course, slightly lower since there are some students who play more than one sport.

This looks to me like across sport and across time domination (need to get that men's basketball program fixed, though). I'm not aware (although I haven't looked) of any other conference where one school has dominated across the board for an extended period of time. Sure, there are instances where one school dominates one, two or even three sports but all but one of the major sports they compete in?

Should the PAC be concerned that they have become a one trick pony and do something, or should they just wait and hope there is a reversion to the mean some day? Not for me to decide, but having looked at this data I can see why there might be some discontent at some schools that have looked at the same data, and I'm sure they have.

Jeff in East Tennessee

jknezek · September 18, 2016, 07:53:11 PM

I doubt this is all that unusual. For example, W&L has won 19 of 21 Overall ODAC Commissioner's Cups. That's weighted average best performance finishes across all ODAC sports. The W&L men have won 16 of 23 men's cups, the women have won 15 of 23 women's cups.

I'm not going to do the individual stuff. But last year the W&L men topped the ODAC in every fall sport. This year the men and women were the favorite in the preseason of every fall sport except women's soccer, where they were predicted 2nd. Winter and spring aren't as dominant, though men's and women's swimming is every year, women's tennis is every year, men's tennis is almost every year. Basketball, men's and women's, and baseball, tend to be the only sports where W&L is not consistently expected to compete or win year in and out. Softball is the only ODAC sport W&L has yet to adopt.

I'd expect you'd find something similar in many conferences.

FOUR · September 18, 2016, 09:31:29 PM

Quote from: SaintsFAN on September 17, 2016, 08:21:56 AM
Quote from: DagarmanSpartan on September 16, 2016, 05:49:44 PM
Any predictions for CWRU v. Grove City?

I have two:
1. The concession stand will run out of hot dogs in the 3rd Quarter.
2. Case will score more points in the first half than they did on September 10th.

Ha! Wrong on both... Although not sure we've seen the Wolverines hit rock bottom yet... no where to go but up. I do have a bold prediction and it is they will not lose on Oct 22.

WashJeff68 · September 18, 2016, 11:53:14 PM

Jknezek,

No surprise that W&L dominates the ODAC. They have two things no other ODAC team has - a national recruiting base due to their academic reputation, and tons of money for facilities, coaching, financial aid, recruiting, etc. Here is how the football playing members of the ODAC stand up. Stats from Wikepedia, which you can, of course, contest.

School Students Endowment Endowment/Student
Guilford 2682 70,700,000 26,360
Randolph-Macon 1146 126,300,000 110,209
Shenandoah 724 54,900,000 75,829
Bridgewater 1690 70,100,000 41,479
Emory & Henry 1000 86,500,000 86,500
Hampden-Sydney 1120 154,600,000 138,035
W&L 2200 1,477,000,000 671,000

I'd say W&L has a substantial edge versus the rest of the ODC and if they are at all committed to athletics (which I think they are) they should prevail across the board. I looked at the non-football playing members and no school jumped out as one that would compete with W&L on a financial basis.

Been to W&L and a few other ODAC schools, and none compares to W&L.

Regarding the PAC I'll publish similar data tomorrow, but based on a preliminary look I don't think TMC has the endowment resources of most of the other PAC schools.

Jeff from East Tennessee (and the other W&_)

Mr. Ypsi · September 19, 2016, 12:02:25 AM

Quote from: WashJeff68 on September 18, 2016, 11:53:14 PM
Jknezek,

No surprise that W&L dominates the ODAC. They have two things no other ODAC team has - a national recruiting base due to their academic reputation, and tons of money for facilities, coaching, financial aid, recruiting, etc. Here is how the football playing members of the ODAC stand up. Stats from Wikepedia, which you can, of course, contest.

School Students Endowment Endowment/Student
Guilford 2682 70,700,000 26,360
Randolph-Macon 1146 126,300,000 110,209
Shenandoah 724 54,900,000 75,829
Bridgewater 1690 70,100,000 41,479
Emory & Henry 1000 86,500,000 86,500
Hampden-Sydney 1120 154,600,000 138,035
W&L 2200 1,477,000,000 671,000,000

I'd say W&L has a substantial edge versus the rest of the ODC and if they are at all committed to athletics (which I think they are) they should prevail across the board. I looked at the non-football playing members and no school jumped out as one that would compete with W&L on a financial basis.

Been to W&L and a few other ODAC schools, and none compares to W&L.

Jeff from East Tennessee (and the other W&_)

I hope your W&J major was not math (or, worse, accounting)!

Your endowment/student number for W&L is off by a factor of 1,000!

WashJeff68 · September 19, 2016, 12:08:40 AM

It's late. I've corrected it. I was an English major, but that's no excuse. Thanks for the catch.

SaintsFAN · September 19, 2016, 08:53:09 AM

Bingo, WashJeff68.

This thing has legs. Cincinnati is a great area for recruiting Division 3 athletes. The school has also recently added wrestling and track/field.

ADL70 · September 19, 2016, 09:37:50 AM

GCC broadcasters had me rolling on the floor when they described CWRU as a "big-time football factory"!

WashJeff68 · September 19, 2016, 10:50:45 AM

SaintsFAN,

I knew about wrestling, but not track & field. Add swimming and diving and you have all the pieces in place to win the PAC All Sports Trophy which is difficult if you are not playing three conference sports.

Got any prospective donors inline to pony up for a swimming/diving complex?

Jeff in Tennessee

jknezek · September 19, 2016, 11:22:30 AM

Quote from: WashJeff68 on September 18, 2016, 11:53:14 PM
Jknezek,

No surprise that W&L dominates the ODAC. They have two things no other ODAC team has - a national recruiting base due to their academic reputation, and tons of money for facilities, coaching, financial aid, recruiting, etc. Here is how the football playing members of the ODAC stand up. Stats from Wikepedia, which you can, of course, contest.

School Students Endowment Endowment/Student
Guilford 2682 70,700,000 26,360
Randolph-Macon 1146 126,300,000 110,209
Shenandoah 724 54,900,000 75,829
Bridgewater 1690 70,100,000 41,479
Emory & Henry 1000 86,500,000 86,500
Hampden-Sydney 1120 154,600,000 138,035
W&L 2200 1,477,000,000 671,000

I'd say W&L has a substantial edge versus the rest of the ODC and if they are at all committed to athletics (which I think they are) they should prevail across the board. I looked at the non-football playing members and no school jumped out as one that would compete with W&L on a financial basis.

Been to W&L and a few other ODAC schools, and none compares to W&L.

Regarding the PAC I'll publish similar data tomorrow, but based on a preliminary look I don't think TMC has the endowment resources of most of the other PAC schools.

Jeff from East Tennessee (and the other W&_)

Stats match more or less what I know. And you are right. There is a big difference in resources between W&L and the rest of the ODAC. I wish we had stats for dollars spent per student athlete. I don't think W&L devotes more dollars, on average, to athletics than many other DIII schools. No ridiculous number of coaches, no crazy travel budget. The facilities are good, but I wouldn't say they stand out in DIII with the indoor tennis center and probably the currently being built swimming and diving center being the exceptions. No doubt W&L could spend more, it's just not really part of the school's philosophy. For example, playing in the ODAC versus the SAA. Mission and values wise, the SAA matches up better with W&L, but the costs and time of travel just don't compare to how good life is for student athletes in the ODAC.

We'll see. There has definitely been a step forward in facilities in the last 20 years. Before that almost everything was horribly behind. I don't think it will pay off too much with W&L becoming more of a national power anywhere, but we have definitely seen regional results improve in football, men's soccer, men's golf and field hockey. Adding to sports where we were already regional powers, M&W tennis, M&W swimming, and M&W lax.

In the end though, I still think most conferences have a school that is consistently a cut above. There are too many ways, and needs, for a school to emphasize athletics if they feel it will benefit them in the long run.

SaintsFAN · September 19, 2016, 01:07:24 PM

Quote from: WashJeff68 on September 19, 2016, 10:50:45 AM
SaintsFAN,

I knew about wrestling, but not track & field. Add swimming and diving and you have all the pieces in place to win the PAC All Sports Trophy which is difficult if you are not playing three conference sports.

Got any prospective donors inline to pony up for a swimming/diving complex?

Jeff in Tennessee

No but there is an adequate swimming/diving facility behind the school at the Country Club. TM students have been welcome there in the past..

WashJeff68 · September 19, 2016, 07:38:59 PM

Saints FAN

If you are talking about Summit Hills Country Club, looks like they do have a nice outside facility. Swimming and Diving is a winter sport, so I don't think that will work.

Jeff