FB: Presidents' Athletic Conference

[jknezek]

I hear what you are saying and agree, but I am not talking about who they market their product to, or anything they teach to create the bell curve you are talking about.  I am speaking strictly about how they run the business side.  As I mentioned and Pat C commented on, they do not take federal money including federal financial aid.  Yet they have the lowest tuition.  I do not know all their business practices, but I do know one of the ways they keep it low is by only giving scholarships if they have the physical money to cover it.  I listened to a radio program with the President of the GCC (this was roughly a decade ago, it may be a new president now I do not remember the name but the position he held and what he said.) 

He went into the reason why most colleges tuitions are through the roof but how GCC was able to stay low cost without government money.  The 2 main points he made that I would give the gist about is, government money is nice, but it comes with a lot of strings attached that are every bit as costly.  If those programs are not managed well, they end up costing more than the government money they receive.  Just knowing how businesses/bureaucracies od certain sizes (all college even the smallest of them are big enough) work, I would venture to say that most schools, if any, manage it well and that the cost exceeds the money received.

The other reason he stated is scholarships.  The great majority of scholarships schools award out, are not endowed.  To cover the expenses of the non-endowed scholarships, schools raise the price for all the students to pay for the few.  That led schools raising the cost even more as they had to then give aid to all the students, because the tuition rose too much. So, if school X tuition is $50,000 no one attending pays that, as they all receive some aid.  So, let's say the real cost averages to $35K.  According to the GCC Pres of that time I heard him talk, if they never played the shell game of awarding non-endowed scholarships, that school could have just kept tuition low for everyone and the set tuition would be said $28K.  Again, that is not a quote from him, just my interpretation and the gist of what he was saying. 

None the less, if you are Theil and Bethany, even others, I do not think it would hurt to ask GCC what their business plan is and see what from it you can use.  They are clearly doing better from a financial perspective regardless of what your/mine/other people's opinion of them are with regards to politics/marketing/viewpoint/etc .  Maybe Bethany and Theil want to keep the government money and deal with the strings attached.  If what the GCC president said is true about scholarships, maybe they can at least go with the only funding the endowed scholarship route.  1 thing is for sure, GCC has always be rated as one of the better run colleges that stays out of the red.  That is not the norm for most colleges.  It just is not. Again, I am a SVC grad, I have no ties to GCC but I can look at data and make fairly accurate assumptions on it.

It works for Grove City. But, Grove City is also 92-93% white according to collegefactual. If you only serve those who can pay for it, you lose a lot of diversity of experience. Maybe that is a big deal, maybe it's not. The Supreme Court decision is certainly going to reframe the debate, but it undoubtedly leads to more of an echo chamber environment. It's easy to say everyone should pay their own way and no one should be required to pay more to help out those less fortunate, but there are plenty of arguments to the contrary, primarily that such a policy tends to benefit a socioeconomic class that statistically ties more closely to some racial backgrounds than others.

As I said, Grove City is very successful at what they do. I applaud them for being on very stable financial footing and for helping create a broad spectrum of educational opportunities in the United States. It's just not really a model I think can be replicated at too many places at once. I also don't believe you can divorce their financial practices from their underlying mission and values.

Personally I have said before and I'll say it again, there are simply too many colleges in the United States. There are too many college degrees awarded each year, and we have diluted the value of attaining an undergraduate degree badly by awarding them from colleges more interested in staying open than in educating students who want or should be going into higher education.

In 1970, 10% of the population (age 25 and above) had a post h.s. degree. In 1990 it was 21.3%. In 2020 it was 37.5%. With so many people with degrees, jobs that didn't used to need a degree now require one to screen out applicants. That unnecessarily squeezes the job options for those unable or unwilling to go to college, usually adding the burden of student debt to people who shouldn't have needed to take it on.

In my opinion, the contraction of colleges we are going to see is not a bad thing. There are a lot of schools that simply don't need to exist. While that may be a tragedy to the stakeholders of each school that closes, I'm hopeful that a contraction is what we need for colleges to understand that prices are out of control, costs are out of control, non-teaching administration is out of control, quality of experience has trumped quality of education at many schools, and that many, many schools have strayed from their purpose, providing an educational experience to best prepare graduates for life in the white collar workforce.

Time will tell I guess.

[DagarmanSpartan]

Here are CWRU's room and board rates, since somebody asked.

https://case.edu/housing/rates-and-dates/2022-2023-room-and-board-rates

[DagarmanSpartan]

Regarding scholarships, CWRU has scholarships that are both endowed and non-endowed.  Likewise, there is need based financial aid, and the university accepts federal financial aid and federally backed student loans.

They also accept ROTC scholarship money.  Those people get the best deal of all.  How?  Well, if you get an ROTC scholarship, and attend school at Case, that scholarship will cover your tuition, and CWRU automatically kicks in free room and board, so you basically end up going to school cost-free; about your only expense will be transportation to the school at the start and end of each semester.

Regarding Bethany...........I am guessing that it has always been that small, and has probably always been on the lower end endowment wise.

That hasn't shut it down.  I am skeptical that such a shut down or crisis is imminent, given that.  At that particular school.........that is the NORM.........and that norm seems to have been sustainable for many decades.  I'd be shocked if it changed.

And that's why I don't necessarily see a big "college contraction" to be either in progress or imminent.  Schools that have always been small like Bethany will remain such........and will continue on precisely that way.

To the extent that the population of people seeking a college education might be reduced, that reduction will mostly be felt at "directional" public universities.  We can already see that at a school like Central Michigan U., which went from 30K to 17K in enrollment within the space of just over a decade.  That's where you'll see enrollments drop.  That said, those schools will stay open in order to educate the communities that they are publicly funded to educate..........simply in smaller numbers. 

I could be wrong, but schools that have always been tiny, like Bethany, will simply continue to go on the way that they always have.

[mikefln]

It works for Grove City. But, Grove City is also 92-93% white according to collegefactual. If you only serve those who can pay for it, you lose a lot of diversity of experience. Maybe that is a big deal, maybe it's not. The Supreme Court decision is certainly going to reframe the debate, but it undoubtedly leads to more of an echo chamber environment. It's easy to say everyone should pay their own way and no one should be required to pay more to help out those less fortunate, but there are plenty of arguments to the contrary, primarily that such a policy tends to benefit a socioeconomic class that statistically ties more closely to some racial backgrounds than others.

There are schools who are set up to serve those in finacial need.  They are state schools that are funded by taxpayer money for the very reason you said.

As I said, Grove City is very successful at what they do. I applaud them for being on very stable financial footing and for helping create a broad spectrum of educational opportunities in the United States. It's just not really a model I think can be replicated at too many places at once. I also don't believe you can divorce their financial practices from their underlying mission and values.

To me it is not divorcing financial practices from underlying mission and values.  It is making sure expenses stay under X.  Too many schools, businesses, governments, people have a tendency to spend X+.  Again, there are state schools that are tax funded, no private school is a charity, it is a not for profit but it is not a charity. 

Personally, I have said before and I'll say it again, there are simply too many colleges in the United States. There are too many college degrees awarded each year, and we have diluted the value of attaining an undergraduate degree badly by awarding them from colleges more interested in staying open than in educating students who want or should be going into higher education.

In 1970, 10% of the population (age 25 and above) had a post h.s. degree. In 1990 it was 21.3%. In 2020 it was 37.5%. With so many people with degrees, jobs that didn't used to need a degree now require one to screen out applicants. That unnecessarily squeezes the job options for those unable or unwilling to go to college, usually adding the burden of student debt to people who shouldn't have needed to take it on.

In my opinion, the contraction of colleges we are going to see is not a bad thing. There are a lot of schools that simply don't need to exist. While that may be a tragedy to the stakeholders of each school that closes, I'm hopeful that a contraction is what we need for colleges to understand that prices are out of control, costs are out of control, non-teaching administration is out of control, quality of experience has trumped quality of education at many schools, and that many, many schools have strayed from their purpose, providing an educational experience to best prepare graduates for life in the white collar workforce.

Time will tell I guess.

Now this I agree with except for the white collar workforce part.  There are a lot of programs that schools could be created to help the blue collar workforce too.  Delaware Vally College is a good example with their agriculture focused niche.  A lot in that program can choose the white collar route or the blue collar route.  It does not need to be just agriculutre, but i am using that as an example.  None the less I do agree with this above.

Regarding scholarships, CWRU has scholarships that are both endowed and non-endowed.  Likewise, there is need based financial aid, and the university accepts federal financial aid and federally backed student loans.

They also accept ROTC scholarship money.  Those people get the best deal of all.  How?  Well, if you get an ROTC scholarship, and attend school at Case, that scholarship will cover your tuition, and CWRU automatically kicks in free room and board, so you basically end up going to school cost-free; about your only expense will be transportation to the school at the start and end of each semester.

Regarding Bethany...........I am guessing that it has always been that small, and has probably always been on the lower end endowment wise.

That hasn't shut it down.  I am skeptical that such a shut down or crisis is imminent, given that.  At that particular school.........that is the NORM.........and that norm seems to have been sustainable for many decades.  It'd be shocked if it changed.

CWRU is big with student body and general endowment it can handle issues that these smaller schools cannot.   I am not an expert on Bethany (or any of these schools), but good for them for running all these years if that has always been their makeup.  1 question, did they always have a graduation rate lower than the national average?  I can see that being a big differnce between surviving and not.

[jknezek]

I don't think you've looked at Penn State's average cost of attendance lately. It's just under 19K for in state tuition and just under 13K for room and board.  Amazingly, that's 32K per year. I also think it's a bit ridiculous to look at sticker prices. The department of education actually does an "average cost by income" for schools that report. Theil's looks like this:

Cost by household income
From US Dept of Education (IPEDS) · Learn more
Household income   Average cost after aid
Less than $30,000   $21,435
$30,001–48,000   $19,524
$48,001–75,000   $19,321
$75,001–110,000   $23,762
More than $110,001   $24,553


Room and board is about 14K.  So in the top bracket, it costs, on average, about 39K. So yeah, it's more than the state school, about 18% more, on average if you make over $110K.  Its only 6% more if you make less than 75K, roughly.

State schools aren't cheap, and state taxpayers only cover miniscule amounts of each state school's budget. For most state schools, in-state taxpayers cover less than 15% of the operating budget, though it varies greatly state by state. I know in PA they were arguing about around $650 million this year for all the state schools in total. Penn State's system alone has an operating budget close to $7.7 billion, though a huge chunk of that, close to 45%, is for the hospital. You can get a breakdown on at the link below, but state taxpayers kicked in $296 million to the Penn State school system, on a budget of $2.6 billion. 

https://budget.psu.edu/BOTJuly/BoardDocuments%2021-22/incomepie.aspx

[mikefln]

I don't think you've looked at Penn State's average cost of attendance lately. It's just under 19K for in state tuition and just under 13K for room and board.  Amazingly, that's 32K per year. I also think it's a bit ridiculous to look at sticker prices. The department of education actually does an "average cost by income" for schools that report. Theil's looks like this:

Cost by household income
From US Dept of Education (IPEDS) · Learn more
Household income   Average cost after aid
Less than $30,000   $21,435
$30,001–48,000   $19,524
$48,001–75,000   $19,321
$75,001–110,000   $23,762
More than $110,001   $24,553


Room and board is about 14K.  So in the top bracket, it costs, on average, about 39K. So yeah, it's more than the state school, about 18% more, on average if you make over $110K.  Its only 6% more if you make less than 75K, roughly.

State schools aren't cheap, and state taxpayers only cover miniscule amounts of each state school's budget. For most state schools, in-state taxpayers cover less than 15% of the operating budget, though it varies greatly state by state. I know in PA they were arguing about around $650 million this year for all the state schools in total. Penn State's system alone has an operating budget close to $7.7 billion, though a huge chunk of that, close to 45%, is for the hospital. You can get a breakdown on at the link below, but state taxpayers kicked in $296 million to the Penn State school system, on a budget of $2.6 billion. 

https://budget.psu.edu/BOTJuly/BoardDocuments%2021-22/incomepie.aspx

Penn State is not a good example, and neither are Pitt, Temple and I think Lincoln too.  All of those schools are state related, basically part private and part state supported.  The PASSHE is the state system of higher education, think Slippery Rock/IUP/Etc.  For the 2023 school year SR tuition is $10,506, w/room and board it is $22,412 for instate students.  So yes, they are significantly cheaper than private schools and there is still finical aid involved at those institutions also. Plus, your claim that using sticker price is ridiculous, is actually backfiring on you.   Your example of Theil's true cost to attend if you make less than $30K a year proves my point, GCC sticker price is still cheaper without any and before subsidy.

[unionpalooza]

Mikefln, I think the basic point folks are trying to make here is that there's nothing special or exceptional about GCC's financial acumen or approach.  The average price (per DOE data) a kid pays at Thiel is $23k; that's basically the same average price as GCC, assuming you believe their claim they don't discount tuition.  Lots of other schools is the same ballpark.

[WashJeff68]

In all the years D3boards has been in existence  I don't recall anyone from GCC (or most of the other PAC schools) posting here. As Pat will know in the early days there was lots of "smack" going on with players and assistant coaches posting. As I understand it Head coaches got involved and basically shut down any players and coaches from posting. Lots of forums on here are very active, but this one is now some old guys from Case, and old guys Bob  Gregg (sorry Bob) and I from W&J (yes, there was the recent grad from CMU but he has moved on). The coaches were right to keep their people from posting here  (certainly nothing to gain)but this is certainly a much more boring thread than others unless  there is a D3 wide topic like our current discussion that draws comment/debate. Why are the other members of the conference not participating? Oh, there was also a Thomas More alum but he is gone. Pat, (or any one else) any data/ thoughts you can share?

[jknezek]

I think most of these boards have a couple regulars.  Then a few sporadic posters. Then the ones who show up for a season or two while their kid plays or they are a year or two after playing. But message boards everywhere are a dieing. Doesn't seem to matter or the topic.

[mikefln]

In all the years D3boards has been in existence  I don't recall anyone from GCC (or most of the other PAC schools) posting here. As Pat will know in the early days there was lots of "smack" going on with players and assistant coaches posting. As I understand it Head coaches got involved and basically shut down any players and coaches from posting. Lots of forums on here are very active, but this one is now some old guys from Case, and old guys Bob  Gregg (sorry Bob) and I from W&J (yes, there was the recent grad from CMU but he has moved on). The coaches were right to keep their people from posting here  (certainly nothing to gain)but this is certainly a much more boring thread than others unless  there is a D3 wide topic like our current discussion that draws comment/debate. Why are the other members of the conference not participating? Oh, there was also a Thomas More alum but he is gone. Pat, (or any one else) any data/ thoughts you can share?

Jeff,

I assume you referencing me as the GCC grad since recently I talked and defended the school. I am actually a St Vincent Grad, class of 2002 before they had football.  I initially went to Robert Morris for football but left after my freshman year as I hurt my knee (thought it was worse than it was) and I just didn't like the school much.  I chose SVC because I had a cousin there and they did not have football (or wrestling) as I was afraid of being tempted to play with a bad knee.  After completing my sophomore year at SVC, my knee was better than ever and I wanted to transfer somewhere that had a team.  I missed football (and wrestling) too much but felt stuck at SVC as I didn't want to transfer again and lose more credits than I already did from transferring.  So my plan worked too well, as I never considered my knee healing stronger.  If I had to do it again, I would have gone to Theil or Waynesburg and tried to play football and wrestle while in college.

I only bring my history up, to explain why I visit this board (infrequently) and never talk much.  I really do not have much of a connection with the SVC football program or school that much to come here and post about it.  Honestly, I never even went to one of their games yet and they have been playing for over a decade now.  Maybe I will go this year to show my son (who is a wrestler not a football player, way too small to play ball) the school as they are getting a wrestling team.  Sometimes I watch SVC on the PAC channel on a Sunday morning after church and before the NFL, but I would do that to any PAC school if it was supposed to be a good game because I am a football nerd.  So, I am not close to the program and have nothing of value to add to the discussion here most of the time.  There is nothing as far as just being an alum, that makes me want to be anything more than a casual onlooker.  Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed my time at SVC, it is/was a good school at a great value, and it is in a great area for outdoor activities. With that said, I do not have a strong love for it like some people have for their school.

My interest in coming on this board is the fact that I am a football nerd from WPA.  I just like to keep up with the on-goings of the local schools and former WPIAL players.  Honestly my closest connection to any PAC school is when a player from my old HS Bishop Canevin is on the team.  I know I am excited to see what Xavier Nelson does at Waynesburg.  If he was bigger, that kid would at least of been a FCS recruit if not FBS.

When you made that chart and talked about the possibility of schools closing, I like diving into data and making assumptions, hypothesis, analysis, etc with them so I took it and ran with it.  In doing so I was impressed by GCC and as I stated I know a few GCC alums, and they just always seem to be squared away people.  So, I looked at a few more factors and went with it.  I found it enjoyable, but it did not seem others did, so I stopped responding. 

As far as trying to get more interest on this board, did anyone ever talk to any of the schools ADs or SIDs to see if they would promote this board at the games?  Speaking of which, how are the atmosphere at most schools in the PAC?  From what I can tell, it is fairly lackluster outside of a few schools and a few big game/events (ie homecoming).  There are no big rivalries, bands, tailgating, or gameday traditions that get the juices flowing.  Most schools in the PAC do not have any of that college pageantry to them.  It is like they have a team and therefore a game just because.  My nephew graduated from John Carroll a couple years ago where he played on the team.  They always had good attendance, tailgating, and college pageantry but when they played Mount Union or Baldwin Wallace everything was turned up a few notches.  I know D3 will not be confused with D1, but these PAC schools should promote better and build better environments to give people reason to want to go to the game as much as some of those JCU fans do.  That is an attainable level to reach.  From the outside looking in, it appears only Geneva, W&J and Case and maybe Westminster is at least respectable in trying to have a good college gameday atmosphere.   But like I said, it seems like a lot of PAC schools have teams just to have teams.  YMMV

[mikefln]

In an effort to get some discussion on this board before the season kickoffs, tell us about your schools gameday environment.

Cost of ticket?
What does the tailgating scene look like?
Average attendance and what does that equal to in terms of capacity %?
Any special gameday traditions the school partakes in?
Any annual traditions the school partakes in? (example: bon fire before homecoming or rival game)

[DagarmanSpartan]

I wouldn't say Case's gameday atmosphere is super-good.

In a 2400 seat stadium, there will probably be between 1K and 1.5K in the stands.

There will be a small amount of tailgating, but nothing super huge.  At homecoming, you'll see somewhat more.

They do have a fun band and decent cheer and dance squads.

On homecoming, they do have a bit of a homecoming parade which has grown over the years.

That's about it.

It's NOTHING like attending a D1-FBS P5 level game.  Those have massive tailgates taking up acres and acres of parking space with lots of tents, etc., beer flowing by the keg, huge bands on both sides with lots of pageantry and fancy halftime shows, video scoreboards, and thousands upon thousands of screaming fans in the stadium.

I would imagine the situation is similar at all but a handful of D3 schools.

I'll qualify that by saying that my last CWRU game was 2014 homecoming against Geneva.

ADL70 might be a better authority because he attends many more games, but that's how that 2014 homecoming game was, and that's not too different from how it was when I attended games as a student in the early 90s.

[mikefln]

Thank you Dagarman for responding.  I know a D3 school will be nothing like a FBS P5 programs, that would be unrealistic.  But I used John Carroll as an example.  Most of their games are well under 100% capacity (Mount and BW are the 2 sold out games) and many are around the 50% capacity that you mention Case hovers around.  Despite that, most of their games still provide a good atmosphere/environment that makes you feel like "this program means something here!" With JCU there is still a ton of room to get to a Wabash or St Johns level.   Go to youtube and look at those enviroments.  That is great stuff there. But a JCU level is still good for D3 schools.

It just seems like football is just a thing most PAC schools have to just have it.  It is like the administration hired a coach and put the team together then said "ok that is good enough!", then they never supported it past that.  I have been to a few Geneva games (been a few years so it could have changed) but you could tell, the school and community cared about having a program. It was more than just having a team.  I went to W&J home game vs John Carrol and it had a nice college feel to it.  Neither place was to be confused with P5 football pageantry, but there was still a spirit to both Geneva and W&J similar to JCU where it was more than just having a team for the sake of it.   From what you are describing it sound like Case could have that college spirit I am talking about and I hope it does.  Just having that band and dance squad go a long way.

Sorry for my rambling.  Not trying to piss anyone off here.
Maybe I am wrong, and every PAC school has it. From the games I stream, it does not feel that way at all.

[E.115]

Thanks @mikefln. 

I will add Case Western Reserve has what I'd described as a pretty unique playing environment, being encased in buildings, in a dense urban area (the second photo is my favorite):

https://twitter.com/DebeljakGreg/status/1624945032468787205

Several students often watch the game from their dorm rooms.

Alumni/guests/recruits can also watch from the two-story Wyant Athletic Center (https://case.edu/president/initiatives/enhancing-our-campus/wyant-athletic-and-wellness-center), which can also be seen in the north end zone in the fourth photo: https://twitter.com/mikeygcle/status/1624927787688550402/photo/4

[CNU85]

In an effort to get some discussion on this board before the season kickoffs, tell us about your schools gameday environment.

Cost of ticket?
What does the tailgating scene look like?
Average attendance and what does that equal to in terms of capacity %?
Any special gameday traditions the school partakes in?
Any annual traditions the school partakes in? (example: bon fire before homecoming or rival game)

I'm going to steal this and post it over on the NJAC board. Great idea you had!