FB: Presidents' Athletic Conference

[mikefln]

Thanks @mikefln. 

I will add Case Western Reserve has what I'd described as a pretty unique playing environment, being encased in buildings, in a dense urban area (the second photo is my favorite):

https://twitter.com/DebeljakGreg/status/1624945032468787205

Several students often watch the game from their dorm rooms.

Alumni/guests/recruits can also watch from the two-story Wyant Athletic Center (https://case.edu/president/initiatives/enhancing-our-campus/wyant-athletic-and-wellness-center), which can also be seen in the north end zone in the fourth photo: https://twitter.com/mikeygcle/status/1624927787688550402/photo/4

I have never been to Case but I have seen photos of the stadium and I agree that it is a cool looking setup that I like a lot.  That is I never knew that about the dorm rooms or the Wyant center.  That is neat.  Thank you for sharing.

I'm going to steal this and post it over on the NJAC board. Great idea you had!

Feel free too, I basically stole the idea from another board where they asked for ticket cost and average attendance.  I just decided to add a few more items to discuss.

[IC798891]

In 1970, 10% of the population (age 25 and above) had a post h.s. degree. In 1990 it was 21.3%. In 2020 it was 37.5%. With so many people with degrees, jobs that didn't used to need a degree now require one to screen out applicants. That unnecessarily squeezes the job options for those unable or unwilling to go to college, usually adding the burden of student debt to people who shouldn't have needed to take it on.

1,000% this.

I went to Ithaca College, from 2001-2005, studying journalism, graduating magna cum laude. Fortunately, my father worked for them, and my parents could pay my room and board. Recognizing my luck there, but that's not really the point. This is:

I worked in journalism and I now work in college communications for IC as their assistant director of news strategy and operations.

My wife graduated from DeSales University, and studied film. She, by her own admission, got poor grades in college. She has taken the following career path:

Phon sales job for IBM --- Administrative Assistant and Community relations coordinator at that local non-profit --- Marketing coordinator at the non-profit --- Operations and external relations coordinator for the School of Humanities and Sciences at IC --- Communications Coordinator at Cornell Law School --- Communications Coordinator for Cornell School of Engineering

She has never used her degree. That's not to say she hasn't used her college education, and the various skills she developed during her time there. But the degree itself? Nope. EXCEPT, as jknezek says, places just require degrees to screen people

Not only do we both work in Communications at the college/university level, she has the better job. She makes a higher salary, she has better insurance, the better retirement, better annual raises.

And honestly, there's nothing about her career path she needed her degree for, or really any degree. She's incredibly smart and hard-working, and she worked her way up the ladder. I did things the way we're increasingly told is the "right way". And we both ended up in the same spot.

The shift that needs to happen is on the employer side. Stop requiring degrees. Let people develop skills in the jobs they have.

[WashJeff68]

In looking at the USDE College Scorecard data one piece of data that stood out to me was Bethany's graduation rate. Most non-Case CMU schools had graduation rates in the 70%+ range. Bethany's was 38%. That churn rate has to be a very costly issue.

My sons and I may go to W&J Homecoming this year. Nice of them to humor the old man.

Received the following from W&J's president today.


View in browser





"Dear W&J Alumni & Friends,

The campus sprang to life last week as we welcomed the Class of 2027 and marked the second consecutive year of enrollment growth. Our new students bring a variety of unique experiences, and we can't wait to see all they accomplish at W&J. They join us from 16 states, the District of Columbia, and nine countries. One-quarter of the class is first-generation college students. More than 100 students have been active community volunteers, 52 are musicians, and nearly 50 percent plan to participate in athletics. The class is also more racially and ethnically diverse than any previous W&J class.

We welcomed our new students with a week of exciting orientation activities culminating with a beautiful Matriculation ceremony in the Ross Family Recreation Center, followed by the opportunity for each student to "Cross the Seal" in Old Main. We also began the year with a record number of new academic programs. Over the last two years, the faculty have developed 27 innovative areas of study ranging from Sports Economics to Conservation Biology to Nonprofit Management. In addition, the College's recently-announced Bachelor of Science in Nursing is attracting great interest from prospective students who hope to join the initial class in fall 2024.

Finally, I am proud to share that W&J was recognized three times in the last week in national rankings based on quality and affordability. College Raptor placed W&J in the top 25 colleges and universities nationwide on its annual list of "Most Affordable Hidden Gem Colleges for The Middle Class." The ranking considers factors including graduation rates, median test scores for entering first-year students, student/faculty ratio, and affordability.

W&J was also recognized in the top tier of Third Way's national ranking of "institutions that are fulfilling higher education's purpose of promoting economic mobility for their students." Out of more than 100 private institutions in Pennsylvania, we were among only six to receive this recognition. These rankings reflect our commitment to offering an education of unsurpassed quality at a price families can afford. And just this morning, Washington Monthly published its annual college guide ranking W&J among the Top 10 liberal arts institutions nationwide in "Earnings Performance" of graduates, yet another indicator of the economic mobility made possible by this College.

We are able to provide an outstanding return on investment thanks to the alumni and friends who generously support today's students with gifts to scholarships, academic programs, athletics, the W&J Fund, and more. Indeed, the College has received more philanthropic support in the last year than at any time in the last decade, ensuring that we are financially strong and able to make college affordable while continuing to invest strategically in new programs that keep W&J at the forefront of undergraduate education."


.......And next week it is football. Go Presidents!

[WRMUalum13]

In all the years D3boards has been in existence  I don't recall anyone from GCC (or most of the other PAC schools) posting here. As Pat will know in the early days there was lots of "smack" going on with players and assistant coaches posting. As I understand it Head coaches got involved and basically shut down any players and coaches from posting. Lots of forums on here are very active, but this one is now some old guys from Case, and old guys Bob  Gregg (sorry Bob) and I from W&J (yes, there was the recent grad from CMU but he has moved on). The coaches were right to keep their people from posting here  (certainly nothing to gain)but this is certainly a much more boring thread than others unless  there is a D3 wide topic like our current discussion that draws comment/debate. Why are the other members of the conference not participating? Oh, there was also a Thomas More alum but he is gone. Pat, (or any one else) any data/ thoughts you can share?

I follow Thiel College Football very closely... Ironically I'm also a Mount Union alum, so I've been following both ends of the d3 football success spectrum for the last several years.

I'll try to post more regularly here to diversify our PAC engagement lol.

I'm optimistic about the Tomcats this year, I've heard good things  about our offensive line and new assistant coaching personnel in that department. Need to build a program from the LOS out, so hopefully we'll see improved line play this year. Players have also had 1 year to adjust to the new coaching staffs schemes and playbook.

CWRU as our home opener on Saturday is a tough task, 1% win chance according to Massey Ratings. However JCU reportedly beat them pretty handily in a scrimmage (according to the OAC board) which I'm hoping indicates a down CWRU team more than a great JCU team.

Thiel went from 3-7 in 2003 to 11-1 (with a playoff win) in 2005. Hoping we're at the cusp of that type of turn around. At the very least I hope we start making GCC a little nervous about the Mercer County Cup game again.

[DagarmanSpartan]

CWRU is going to need to break in a new QB.

Everything depends on how the new field general pans out.

[HansenRatings]

Playoff projections for the season using my model's preseason ratings:



As a note, I think my Pool C projections may be getting thrown for a loop with the lack of non-conference games, but I haven't had time to troubleshoot

You can look at other conferences on my website: https://hansenratings.github.io/.

[ADL70]

CWRU is going to need to break in a new QB.

Everything depends on how the new field general pans out.

I'm more concerned about the two new OTs.

[mikefln]

What is everyone's thoughts after week one?  Who are the contenders and who are the pretenders? 

My Power Rankings after week 1

1) CMU
2) W&J
3)Grove City
4) Case
5) Allegheny
6) Westminster
7) Waynesburg
8) Thiel
9) Bethany
10) Geneva
11) SVC

ATTENDANCE: taken from the box score of the PAC web site.

Grove City ATTENDANCE: 5400
Geneva ATTENDANCE: 5155
St Vincent ATTENDANCE: 1330
Thiel ATTENDANCE: 846
Waynesburg ATTENDANCE: 455

[WRMUalum13]

What is everyone's thoughts after week one?  Who are the contenders and who are the pretenders? 

My Power Rankings after week 1

1) CMU
2) W&J
3)Grove City
4) Case
5) Allegheny
6) Westminster
7) Waynesburg
8) Thiel
9) Bethany
10) Geneva
11) SVC

ATTENDANCE: taken from the box score of the PAC web site.

Grove City ATTENDANCE: 5400
Geneva ATTENDANCE: 5155
St Vincent ATTENDANCE: 1330
Thiel ATTENDANCE: 846
Waynesburg ATTENDANCE: 455

I'll post a power ranking later. As a Thiel fan, I'm hoping our defensive performance was more than a 1 game fluke, I was really impressed.

Also I think Thiel attendance was higher than 846, the stands were pretty full and capacity is 1400.

For those in the ytown metro area, Thiel vs Westminster will be televised on WKBN this week

[mikefln]

WRMUAlum I took the attendance straight from the box scores found on the official PAC website.  I do not know what else to use, but glad it was better than what I wrote.  Maybe that is the paid attendance? 

My Power Rankings after week 2

1) CMU -Until they get beat, the returning champs get the top spot.
2) W&J- Scoring a lot of points and not giving up many
3) Grove City- 2-0 with a road win against a scrappy Waynesburg team
4) Case- off this past week
5) Westminster- I could see them pushing Case for the 4th spot soon.
6)  Geneva- Bounced back nicely.  number 6-8 could be anyone of the 3 in any order.  But Geneva beat Allegheny who beat Waynesburg so it is what it is until there is more information. 
7) Allegheny- Can't put them past Geneva who they just lost to
8) Waynesburg-2 loses but they seem scrapy.  Barley lost to Allegheny and put up a hell of a fight against who I consider the clear 3rd best team in this conference.
9) Thiel Slight edge over Bethany for now.
10)  Bethany- performed better than SVC against W&J
11) SVC- Have yet to score a touchdown.  Good news is they played the 2 best teams in the PAC already.

ATTENDANCE: taken from the box score of the PAC web site.

Allegheny Attendance: 2281
Westminster Attendance: 1727
Carnegie Mellon Attendance: 1237
Bethany Attendance: 1096
Waynesburgh Attendance: 895

2023 Total attendance

Allegheny- 2281 (1 game)
Bethany- 1096 (1 game)
Carnegie Mellon- 1237 (1 game)
Case Western Reserve- 0 (0 game)
Geneva- 5155 (1 game)
Grove City-  5400 (1 game)
St. Vincent- 1330 (1 game)
Theil- 846 (1 game)
W&J- 0 (0 games)
Waynesburg- 1350 (2 games)
Westminster- 1727 (1 game)

[ExTartanPlayer]

In all the years D3boards has been in existence  I don't recall anyone from GCC (or most of the other PAC schools) posting here. As Pat will know in the early days there was lots of "smack" going on with players and assistant coaches posting. As I understand it Head coaches got involved and basically shut down any players and coaches from posting. Lots of forums on here are very active, but this one is now some old guys from Case, and old guys Bob  Gregg (sorry Bob) and I from W&J (yes, there was the recent grad from CMU but he has moved on). The coaches were right to keep their people from posting here  (certainly nothing to gain)but this is certainly a much more boring thread than others unless  there is a D3 wide topic like our current discussion that draws comment/debate. Why are the other members of the conference not participating? Oh, there was also a Thomas More alum but he is gone. Pat, (or any one else) any data/ thoughts you can share?

Wait, is this me?!?!  I haven't totally moved on! I just have two little kids (5 & 3) that limit my time for fun, like posting on D3boards.com. 

But I was able to watch the live stream of CMU's opener vs. Geneva and then catch the first quarter or so of the home opener vs. St Vincent live (before the kids got too tired and we had to bail).  Tartans look about as expected IMO - the defense is really superb, the offense good enough to get the job done but unspectacular.  They do have a bell cow running back (Vasiliadis) with a nice change of pace playmaker (Bouma) and a few receivers that have made some plays; it's not a bad offense, and considering the quality of the defense I expect them to compliment each other quite well.  But I wouldn't expect this offense to win many 49-42 shootouts; luckily, I don't think they will have to.

CMU fun fact of the first two weeks from my standpoint is the presence of the "one yard touchdown specialist" Joey McGinnis IV, a sophomore quarterback who the Tartans bring in near the goal line.  Last year: 7 rushes, 8 yards, 5 touchdowns.  This year through 2 weeks: 4 rushes, 5 yards, 4 touchdowns.  He's not especially big - just seems to have good vision and a feel for finding the right crease.  9 conversions on 11 attempts from the 1-2 yard line is pretty good, and a useful weapon to have in your pocket - a guaranteed score from the 1-yard line is a valuable skill if you have an offense that's good at getting there!

There are some really interesting posts on the past couple of pages about the direction of college(s) in general, which I won't touch, and then a few about the game-day atmosphere and support at the various programs.  I have a few thoughts on this...

As a lover of college football, I have tried to experience it in all its forms (and continue doing so).  My wife & I went to see Duquesne at West Virginia this weekend (we live about 10 miles south of Pittsburgh, which puts us about an hour north of Morgantown...I said I really just wanted to go see a WVU game to see what it was like).  WVU was an interesting place to see a game and (considering that it was a nonconference "paycheck" game) the crowd was big, loud, and enthusiastic...but then again, there are no major professional sports in West Virginia so the Mountaineers are the team for everyone in the state, practically. 

Going back a few laps, my wife taught at Central Michigan for two years and we went to several games.  They drew decent crowds (especially earlier in the season on Saturdays when the weather was decent...rather less so in November or the wacky weeknight games), but ultimately their fanbase was always going to be kind of an odd niche - mostly alums that still lived in the area.  Central was only an hour from Lansing (Michigan State) and two hours from Ann Arbor (UM) so realistically not a lot of people were just going to grow up being Central Michigan fans - given the choice between checking out a Michigan State game and Central Michigan game, I suspect most would gravitate towards Michigan State.  Central's attendance was probably tied to whether Michigan or Michigan State had a big game that weekend - I suspect that it was lower if UM or MSU had a big game because some people would rather stay at home or go out to a bar and watch that vs. going to the Central game.

How does this tie into Division III ball and the PAC schools?  I think you have to consider what the "other options" are in a given area and just be kind of realistic.  Schools like Carnegie Mellon and Case Western are not going to develop many of "their own" fans no matter what administration or athletic department does.  They're located in cities that have other college / professional teams who will always be the primary rooting interest for locals seeking a big football game, and...deep breath, acknowledging some academic elitism here...the student body is generally one that a) comes from all over the country/world, b) goes back out all over the country/world when they graduate, and c) is not one comprised of people who consider themselves particularly big football fans (as evidenced by the fact that every single year, surprised freshmen exclaim "I didn't even know we had a football team" despite presumably having toured a campus which has a football field with a scoreboard and stands right in the middle of it).  Over 2 decades of playing and attending CMU games, student interest has typically been something ever-so-slightly greater than zero, but it's quite low - I'd guess only a few hundred students attend any given game (at a school with enrollment approaching 7,000 undergraduates). 

The stands are usually about half-full when the weather is decent, with some other folks milling around the edges of the stadium or watching from the pavilion on the other side.  There's usually a tailgate on the roof of the parking garage, which is almost always a few dozen parents of current players plus some alums and a few parents of alums that happen to be local.  The crowd is basically that group plus whatever students show up for the game (and, being college students, they're often late arrivers who are just there to hang out with friends, not really a rowdy football crowd).  It's interesting - CMU is located in a fairly residential area - but there aren't many local residents who will wake up and say "You know, we should go check out the Carnegie Mellon football game today!"  I'm one of the only football alums from my graduating class that still lives nearby (not just local, like in the city proper, but within anything resembling driving distance to attend a football game).  I occasionally meet younger alums when I go to games; honestly the most common alums to see at games are guys who are only 1-2 years out of school who still know guys on the team, and maybe are still local because they're going to grad school or got a job in the area.  As for non-football alums, forget it.

IMO schools like Geneva, Grove City, and W&J might do better in this regard because they're located in smaller towns where the college itself is a relatively bigger part of how the area identifies, even being located in the greater Pittsburgh region (probably with lots of Steeler fans), some folks will make that the Saturday event.  If I lived in Beaver Falls, I'd probably go to some Geneva games.

(post below is what inspired some of these thoughts...)

As far as trying to get more interest on this board, did anyone ever talk to any of the schools ADs or SIDs to see if they would promote this board at the games?  Speaking of which, how are the atmosphere at most schools in the PAC?  From what I can tell, it is fairly lackluster outside of a few schools and a few big game/events (ie homecoming).  There are no big rivalries, bands, tailgating, or gameday traditions that get the juices flowing.  Most schools in the PAC do not have any of that college pageantry to them.  It is like they have a team and therefore a game just because.  My nephew graduated from John Carroll a couple years ago where he played on the team.  They always had good attendance, tailgating, and college pageantry but when they played Mount Union or Baldwin Wallace everything was turned up a few notches.  I know D3 will not be confused with D1, but these PAC schools should promote better and build better environments to give people reason to want to go to the game as much as some of those JCU fans do.  That is an attainable level to reach.  From the outside looking in, it appears only Geneva, W&J and Case and maybe Westminster is at least respectable in trying to have a good college gameday atmosphere.   But like I said, it seems like a lot of PAC schools have teams just to have teams.  YMMV

As for the opening weeks of this PAC season:

I think the league itself has quietly moved up a few notches in the tiers of Division III.  Nobody will confuse it for the WIAC, but I think it used to be viewed as a very middling conference (for a few years really very much W&J / Thomas More lording over a crowd of peasants) and now I'd probably rank it in the top third or so.  CMU's playoff performance last year (a blowout win vs. the NCAC champ, a league that I think used to be about on par with the PAC, and then an incredibly sterling effort against the eventual national champions...I think CMU was the only team to lead North Central the entire season, and it was still 14-7 into the fourth quarter) may have opened some eyes. 

Consider that CMU did have to labor to a few of their league wins:

- one-score win against Grove City where CMU was outgained by 200 yards
- a 10-0 win against Westminster where CMU had no offensive touchdowns and only 105 yards of offense
- a 27-20 win against Waynesburg, winning score with 1 minute to go
- a 12-7 win against W&J, again with no offensive touchdowns
- a 20-7 win against Case Western that was 14-7 into the fourth quarter

I think some of that was strategic, sure.  CMU's defense is very strong and the coaching staff probably doesn't take big risks on offense once they get a lead.  But, still: that's five separate teams from last year who absolutely could have beaten CMU with a few bounces the other way.  Then you look at some other results - CMU had two other quality nonconference wins vs Whitworth and RPI (both decent teams from decent conferences); W&J beat John Carroll to start the season (JCU's only other loss was 34-28 against Mount Union!) and Hobart to end it in an ECAC game; Westminster played a respectably tough game against eventual quarterfinalist Delaware Valley (score was 13-8 into the fourth quarter) and lost close ones to CMU and W&J; Grove City lost competitive games to the aforementioned three teams and closed the season with an ECAC bowl win; Case lost one-point games to Grove City and Westminster.  I think you can argue that there were five legitimately "quality" teams in the PAC last year (CMU, W&J, GCC, Westminster, Case).  If you look around the nation, a lot of D3 conferences (below the WIAC/MIAC elite level tier) are either a) 1-2 good teams far separated from everyone else or b) a jumbled mess of flawed teams (which can be fun to follow and I actually kind of like, but you know none of them are threats to win a playoff game).  There really aren't too many conferences (more than zero, but probably less than 10) that can offer five quality teams.

Through two weeks...it pretty much looks like those five again.  I don't really expect anyone other than those 5 to contend for a league title, but you always want to see growth/competitiveness up and down the league, so I am interested to see if Thiel can parlay two moderately competitive results of the first two weeks into a few wins against their peers lower down the pecking order. 

Someone always has to finish last, but one of the things I always look for in a league is that the teams who end the year at the bottom are at least playing competitive games against all but the very best team(s) in the league.  I don't expect the last-place team in the OAC to be giving Mount Union much of a sweat, but are they at least scoring touchdowns and in-the-game with their peers?  I worry when a team falls to the level of getting shut out more often than not, or seemingly losing every game by scores like 48-7.  Unfortunately, Thiel has been living down there for a few years.

I follow Thiel College Football very closely... Ironically I'm also a Mount Union alum, so I've been following both ends of the d3 football success spectrum for the last several years.

I'll try to post more regularly here to diversify our PAC engagement lol.

I'm optimistic about the Tomcats this year, I've heard good things  about our offensive line and new assistant coaching personnel in that department. Need to build a program from the LOS out, so hopefully we'll see improved line play this year. Players have also had 1 year to adjust to the new coaching staffs schemes and playbook.

CWRU as our home opener on Saturday is a tough task, 1% win chance according to Massey Ratings. However JCU reportedly beat them pretty handily in a scrimmage (according to the OAC board) which I'm hoping indicates a down CWRU team more than a great JCU team.

Thiel went from 3-7 in 2003 to 11-1 (with a playoff win) in 2005. Hoping we're at the cusp of that type of turn around. At the very least I hope we start making GCC a little nervous about the Mercer County Cup game again.

I played against that 2005 Thiel team (we lost 50-48 in triple overtime...and then they beat Johns Hopkins in the playoffs the next week) and the 2006 team that was also quite competitive.  In 2005 they came to our place 9-0 looking to finish an unbeaten season with us at 5-4 and it turned into a classic; they returned the favor in 2006 as we came in 9-0 with Thiel at 5-4; we had to sweat out a 14-7 win in the rain that was not over until we recovered an onside kick with about 2 minutes to play.  Seems like they fell off pretty hard the next year, and have never gotten back off the mat since then.  I'm not expecting everyone to contend for conference titles, but from 2010 onwards Thiel has almost as many 0-10's as they have seasons with a win.  So even if the full "last to first" turnaround isn't in the cards, I think "competitive" results against Westminster and Case (two of the league's better teams) in the first two weeks are a very encouraging sign.  They should have a chance against Bethany this weekend.

[ExTartanPlayer]

My Power Rankings after week 2

1) CMU -Until they get beat, the returning champs get the top spot.
2) W&J- Scoring a lot of points and not giving up many
3) Grove City- 2-0 with a road win against a scrappy Waynesburg team
4) Case- off this past week
5) Westminster- I could see them pushing Case for the 4th spot soon.
6)  Geneva- Bounced back nicely.  number 6-8 could be anyone of the 3 in any order.  But Geneva beat Allegheny who beat Waynesburg so it is what it is until there is more information. 
7) Allegheny- Can't put them past Geneva who they just lost to
8) Waynesburg-2 loses but they seem scrapy.  Barley lost to Allegheny and put up a hell of a fight against who I consider the clear 3rd best team in this conference.
9) Thiel Slight edge over Bethany for now.
10)  Bethany- performed better than SVC against W&J
11) SVC- Have yet to score a touchdown.  Good news is they played the 2 best teams in the PAC already.

I wouldd rank'em the same way this week.

As a random aside...since I was rambling a little bit about the state of various programs in the conference...Geneva sort of puzzles me.  Whenever I see them play, I think they run that option offense pretty well, and I can't figure out why they are perpetually hovering around 3-7 and in the lower half of the standings.  They have never fully"bottomed out" like Thiel / Bethany / Allegheny have, but they also haven't even managed a 5-5 season since 2013.  Even in 2017 & 2018, they had a real stud of a running back - and went 3-7 and 2-8 in those two seasons.  Like I said...I don't expect everyone to be a league title contender every year, but they're one that has been consistently living in the bottom half of the league for a decade and (when I see them play) am genuinely surprised they haven't burbled up to 6 or 7 wins even once in the last decade.

This is an incomplete picture, of course, but it surprises me because (as others mentioned) among the PAC schools that I have played at or been to...they seemed to have one of the more enthusiastic crowds / game day experiences!  I remember attending a game there once in 2015 & being amazed at the crowd size for a random, not-particularly-big-time Division III game (I just looked it up - attendance that day was reported as 6127, and that matches my memory).  Just weird to me that they've been sitting in the bottom half of the league without even a single 6-win season for a decade.

[WashJeff68]

Nice to see you back ExTartan!

[E.115]

ExTartan, nice writeup.

Agreed on Thiel, who has seemingly been the biggest surprise as it relates to preseason projections.  Although being 0-2, to be 2-3 scores away for both Westminster and Case Western Reserve is certainly worth taking a second look.   That Bethany game will be the first real litmus test to see if they have in fact turned the corner.

[mikefln]

Great stuff Ex Tartan

That is awesome information/Insite you brought there.  A few things you brought up I would love to comment.

I certainly agree about the city schools in pro towns compared to more rural/isolated schools.  That is even true in D1.  Look at Pitt, they have a much harder time getting attendance in a football crazed city compared to the PSU/OSU/WVU/Michigan's of the world.  If Pitt is not playing WVU/PSU/ND or undefeated playing against a top ranked team (think 2003 against VT) there is going to be 45,000 fans at that game at most.  Those schools I mentioned are coming close to sell out against little sister of the poor.  This holds true for all Urban schools in Pro towns like Boston College, UCLA, Washington, Minnesota, even Miami and USC.  So it does not surprise me that it also holds even more true for D3 schools.

The next thing I want to comment on is Geneva.  IMO they are the biggest enigma in the PAC.  Genva as you mentioned has great support from their community.  I do not understand how they are satisfied with the current results.  Last time since they were .500 was 10 years ago in 2013.  Last winning record was in 2009 where I may be mistaken but was the last year, they had scholarship players on their roster. Which goes to my next point.  When I was in HS in the 90's they were always in the NAIA playoffs, then towards the end of their NAIA they were not elite and making playoffs, but respectable with winning seasons minus a year here and there.  How do you go from being respectable to not having a winning season in 13 seasons and still keep the same head coach?  I understand this is not D1 where it is win or else.  But to tolerate 13 years of this, at any level is mindboggling to me.  I do not know their situation (I know it is a close-knit religious community), but I think that program needs new blood to say the least.