FB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[cardinaldad]

For the most part, the officials let the teams play, as well they should. But, I have to ask, how many holding penalties were called in the game? When?

This doesn't matter. Did you see this hold? was it a hold? did he tackle the wheaton defender because he was beaten cleanly? I don't know but that's what matters. I have to assume (as another poster pointed out) that this must have been pretty blatant to be called by the official who was best in position to see it. How many holding penalties and when have nothing to do with it in my view.

That is very interesting about Toal. I've never seen or heard of that. Are you sure he was taken out at the official's direction? Or, maybe did the coaches take him out to cool him off rather than get an unsportsmanlike penalty? Do you have any more information on why that occurred?

Definatley the referree told swider to "get him out of here". I heard the official yell it to him. Swider asked him everyplay when he could return. He was out for 2 plays. very odd.

Again Usee, I'm not saying he didn't hold. It was me that posted that a former player told me that he saw the holding. I personally, did not see it. But, I saw other holds throughout the game by both teams. My point is the same as your's. Relax!! The officials let the teams play. There was holding going on. I saw some of it. You yourself posted that they could probably call holding on every play. You're right. But, I don't remember a hold on the line of scrimmage being called on either team. Being an NCC backer, naturally, I AM disappointed that they decided to throw the flag at that point in the game. That's all.

Very interesting about Toal. I've never seen that. Like you said.....Very odd. If you hear more, please update.

[New Tradition]

Jaybird- regarding the 4th down T.D pass that was ruled out of the endzone, I talked to a couple of parents after the game and the Elmhurst photographer has a photo of the recievers foot clearly inbounds.

Was his name Greg Brady?

Apparently not many here grew up on the Brady Bunch, eh?  Or my comments are a bit too obscure at times...

I will say that I did not grow up on the Brady Bunch, being an '06 NCC grad, but I did pick up on it!  I was out of town today, so just got to it now.  If his name were Greg Brady, he would have been taking pictures of the Elmhurst cheerleaders (possibly Comet's daughter? ) and accidentally got the shot of the receiver with his feet in bounds!  

*Modified for grammar

[cardinaldad]

Substitutions are covered under Rule 3 Section 5. There is no mention of a grace area. So, if you want to claim that no call was made because the player had entered the grace area, you're not playing under the rules of college football.

No, the advantage was to Wheaton. They were making substitutions to get the personnel on the field that they thought could best stop NCC. And they ended up with 12 men on the field. Sometimes it gets called, sometimes it doesn't. I hope all the good Wheaties took a moment at church on Sunday and said "Thank You God."

However, there is no "grace area" for 12 men on the field. There are either 12 men on the field or not. On the college level, that penalty will be called 99.99999999999999999999% of the time. I say 99.9999999% because it wasn't called Sat. This is not youth or freshman high school level football where the game is a learning experience and the officials can tell a player what he did wrong and flag him the next time.

If the guy is a step and a half from his sideline with no possibility of affecting the play I believe there is in fact a "grace area". whether there should be is another debate. I have seen this many, many times with a guy trying to get off the field. You just don't often see it at the end of the game with so much on the line. The official could have called it but obviously realized it had no impact on the play. In fact I would argue the confusion on wheaton's side was to NCC's advantage.

I have seen hundreds of times the player trying to get off the field and if he is reasonably close it isn't called. Call it what you want but that rule isn't enforced. And I did say a few thank you's at church. thank you that mugsy was safe after the marathon

I wouldn't go there. you can take your bitterness somewhere else. no one to blame for this loss but your own team.

Usee, i was going to drop it, but I couldn't after this post Hundreds of times???!!!!!!!!!!! How old are you? Have you watched football since it's inception? Like I've said, I've watched and coached alot of football and have seen 12 men on the field many times. But, HUNDREDS> I know they play better football than that in the CCIW and especillay at Wheaton

[cardinaldad]

CardinalDad,  stats don't always tell the tale and can be misleading. 
Augie will tell you that Elmhurst owned the first half but fell apart when it came time to convert opportunties into points.

I ,like you, also believe that stats don't always tell the tale. While I can understand your observation that Elmhurst's D played well, I'm confused how you and (doubtfully) Augie will tell us that Elmhurst owned the first half?  Augie control the ball and clock for 44 minutes of the game. Did Elmhurst's 16 minutes of possession occur in the first half? I'm troubled with "owning a half" when your D appears to have been on the field defending their end-zone the majority of the game. Possessing the ball for 44 minutes sounds more like "owning" to me. Can you expound a little more on the first half circumstances?

Comet 14,  your observations concerning the above questioning would also be welcomed.

Tailgater- my point exactly. Thanks for stating it better than me.

[cardinaldad]

Jaybird- regarding the 4th down T.D pass that was ruled out of the endzone, I talked to a couple of parents after the game and the Elmhurst photographer has a photo of the recievers foot clearly inbounds.

Was his name Greg Brady?

Apparently not many here grew up on the Brady Bunch, eh?  Or my comments are a bit too obscure at times...

I will say that I did not grow up on the Brady Bunch, being an '06 NCC grad, but I did pick up on it!  I was out of town today, so just got to it now.  If his name were Greg Brady, he would have been taking pictures of the Elmhurst cheerleaders (possibly Comet's daughter? ) and accidentally got the shot of the receiver with his feet in bounds!  

*Modified for grammar

Now thay's funny right there, I don't care who you are!

[cardinaldad]

Substitutions are covered under Rule 3 Section 5. There is no mention of a grace area. So, if you want to claim that no call was made because the player had entered the grace area, you're not playing under the rules of college football.

No, the advantage was to Wheaton. They were making substitutions to get the personnel on the field that they thought could best stop NCC. And they ended up with 12 men on the field. Sometimes it gets called, sometimes it doesn't. I hope all the good Wheaties took a moment at church on Sunday and said "Thank You God."

However, there is no "grace area" for 12 men on the field. There are either 12 men on the field or not. On the college level, that penalty will be called 99.99999999999999999999% of the time. I say 99.9999999% because it wasn't called Sat. This is not youth or freshman high school level football where the game is a learning experience and the officials can tell a player what he did wrong and flag him the next time.

If the guy is a step and a half from his sideline with no possibility of affecting the play I believe there is in fact a "grace area". whether there should be is another debate. I have seen this many, many times with a guy trying to get off the field. You just don't often see it at the end of the game with so much on the line. The official could have called it but obviously realized it had no impact on the play. In fact I would argue the confusion on wheaton's side was to NCC's advantage.

C'mon midwestfb, be cool. Keep it on football. Your points here are well taken and I agree with you on them. But, lets keep it to football!

[cardinaldad]

This is great having the whole board to myself. I'll be to 200 in no time.

[New Tradition]

This is great having the whole board to myself. I'll be to 200 in no time.

Hey, you don't have it completely to yourself!  You're not the only one online...  

[cardinaldad]

However, there is no "grace area" for 12 men on the field. There are either 12 men on the field or not. On the college level, that penalty will be called 99.99999999999999999999% of the time. I say 99.9999999% because it wasn't called Sat. This is not youth or freshman high school level football where the game is a learning experience and the officials can tell a player what he did wrong and flag him the next time.

If the guy is a step and a half from his sideline with no possibility of affecting the play I believe there is in fact a "grace area". whether there should be is another debate. I have seen this many, many times with a guy trying to get off the field. You just don't often see it at the end of the game with so much on the line. The official could have called it but obviously realized it had no impact on the play. In fact I would argue the confusion on wheaton's side was to NCC's advantage.

First of all, the guy was more than a step and a half from the sideline. Whether his being on the field "affected" the play or not is immaterial. If its an infraction it should be called. Furthermore, he was offsides, so the refs really had a choice of calling either one of TWO penalties.

Instead of disregarding both possibilities, as Usee suggests was the proper course of action, I'd rather believe that the refs were just incompetent and didn't even notice that Wheaton had 12 men on the field, one of whom was offsides. 

Don't put words in my mouth. I never said not calling it was appropriate, in fact, if you would actually takes some time to read what I posted I said it should have been called but wasn't. I explained why I thought it wasn't. I never said that was at all appropriate. again, take your bitterness to your own team's performance. You don't see wheaton fans complaining about the phantom offsides on the kickoff that netted NCC 25 extra yards do you? move on.
[/quote

You are right, Usee. Early on you did say that it should have been called. But, don't fuel the fire. Now you are starting to sound like a poor winner, which IMO is worse than a poor loser. No posts regarding the calls or no calls are going to change a thing. The debate can go one forever with no one being correct. We all have our opinions. Like you say, let's move on.

[cardinaldad]

However, there is no "grace area" for 12 men on the field. There are either 12 men on the field or not. On the college level, that penalty will be called 99.99999999999999999999% of the time. I say 99.9999999% because it wasn't called Sat. This is not youth or freshman high school level football where the game is a learning experience and the officials can tell a player what he did wrong and flag him the next time.

If the guy is a step and a half from his sideline with no possibility of affecting the play I believe there is in fact a "grace area". whether there should be is another debate. I have seen this many, many times with a guy trying to get off the field. You just don't often see it at the end of the game with so much on the line. The official could have called it but obviously realized it had no impact on the play. In fact I would argue the confusion on wheaton's side was to NCC's advantage.

First of all, the guy was more than a step and a half from the sideline. Whether his being on the field "affected" the play or not is immaterial. If its an infraction it should be called. Furthermore, he was offsides, so the refs really had a choice of calling either one of TWO penalties.

Instead of disregarding both possibilities, as Usee suggests was the proper course of action, I'd rather believe that the refs were just incompetent and didn't even notice that Wheaton had 12 men on the field, one of whom was offsides. 

Like it or not, there IS a grace area that MOST officials use.  That is called very infrequently at any level.  Stop using that no call as an excuse.  Talk about the pass we threw that went incomplete late in the 4th quarter when we still had the lead and stopped the clock.  Talk about spiking the ball on 3rd down when Wheaton had done us a favor and called a timeout.  Talk about the adjustments that Wheaton made at halftime that NCC didn't adjust to.  Those are legitimate excuses for losing the game.  Call it whatever you want, but begging for a 12 man on the field call when you should have had one more down to score is a bigger problem to me.

Good, correct points Cardinalalum and already pointed out numerous times on the board. You say that 12 men on the field is infrequently called...I say it IS frequently called. Great country America is, isn't it?

[cardinaldad]

I'm not jumping into the pool on the 12-man discussion, except to say I hope everyone will take a deep breath and count to 3 before attacking each other too much.  I think all agree that (1) the flag could have legitimately been thrown but wasn't, (2) Wheaton is lucky the flag wasn't thrown but did plenty beforehand to merit winning the game, (3) NC had other opportunities that went by the wayside,  (4) there were a number of questionable calls or no-calls in the game, adversely affecting both teams at different times, and (5) we all wish this was a non-issue and the game had ended in a non controversial manner.

Given #5, I humbly propose not spending the rest of the week arguing about who misunderstood whom regarding posts on the 12-man rule no-call.   Sounds like one of those games that neither team deserved to lose, but unfortunately only one could win.  I remember being on the short side of a couple of those and it wasn't fun. 

Mugsy, belated congrats on your accomplishment.  Covering 26 miles on foot in one day is a huge accomplishment, regardless of how much of it was run, jogged, walked or crawled.

All great points.....I'm done!!!

[cardinaldad]

This is great having the whole board to myself. I'll be to 200 in no time.

Hey, you don't have it completely to yourself!  You're not the only one online...  

Hey NT....great to have you aboard.......get it?

[cardinaldad]

I'm punchy....I'm going to bed. Happy reading and/or posting!

[devildog29]

Good, correct points Cardinalalum and already pointed out numerous times on the board. You say that 12 men on the field is infrequently called...I say it IS frequently called. Great country America is, isn't it?

I have to agree and disagree with both of you.  I've seen it both ways.  I've seen some officials call it to the letter of the law, and if the guy was still on the field even 1 or 2 steps, it was called.  I've seen other games where the official takes more of a liberal approach to the rule, where if the player is only a step or two away and not having any effect on the play, they let it go.  Just depends on how that particular ref enforces the rule, maybe one of those letter of the law vs. spirit of the law kinda things.  

[burly]

Substitutions are covered under Rule 3 Section 5. There is no mention of a grace area. So, if you want to claim that no call was made because the player had entered the grace area, you're not playing under the rules of college football.

No, the advantage was to Wheaton. They were making substitutions to get the personnel on the field that they thought could best stop NCC. And they ended up with 12 men on the field. Sometimes it gets called, sometimes it doesn't. I hope all the good Wheaties took a moment at church on Sunday and said "Thank You God."

However, there is no "grace area" for 12 men on the field. There are either 12 men on the field or not. On the college level, that penalty will be called 99.99999999999999999999% of the time. I say 99.9999999% because it wasn't called Sat. This is not youth or freshman high school level football where the game is a learning experience and the officials can tell a player what he did wrong and flag him the next time.

If the guy is a step and a half from his sideline with no possibility of affecting the play I believe there is in fact a "grace area". whether there should be is another debate. I have seen this many, many times with a guy trying to get off the field. You just don't often see it at the end of the game with so much on the line. The official could have called it but obviously realized it had no impact on the play. In fact I would argue the confusion on wheaton's side was to NCC's advantage.

I have seen hundreds of times the player trying to get off the field and if he is reasonably close it isn't called. Call it what you want but that rule isn't enforced. And I did say a few thank you's at church. thank you that mugsy was safe after the marathon

I wouldn't go there. you can take your bitterness somewhere else. no one to blame for this loss but your own team.

Usee, i was going to drop it, but I couldn't after this post Hundreds of times???!!!!!!!!!!! How old are you? Have you watched football since it's inception? Like I've said, I've watched and coached alot of football and have seen 12 men on the field many times. But, HUNDREDS> I know they play better football than that in the CCIW and especillay at Wheaton

Actually, he probably has seen it a hundred times.  Have you ever seen how late Wheaton gets its defensive calls in?