FB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[Gregory Sager]

Congrats to NPU wide receiver Chris Durr upon making the All-CCIW first team, and to QB Shelby Wood and RB Kelvyn West upon making the All-CCIW second team. Getting three sophomore skill-position players onto the All-CCIW team is a nice accomplishment, and it's one that bodes well for the future.

Now NPU needs to clear the big hurdle that has always proved insurmountable for the Vikings: Getting a good O-line put together.

Said it at the beginning of the year, this trio is very good.  As long as they stay healthy, they will win a CCIW game before they graduate.

That's not the most flattering tribute I've ever read, BP. While NPU is definitely still in "win one first, then worry about the next step" mode, if Scott Pethtel can only win one CCIW game in four years then it will not have been a successful journey for either him or his sophomore trio.

I certainly hope that Durr, Wood, and West have set their sights higher than winning a solitary CCIW game over their four-year careers.

Mr. Sager, when was the last time North Park won a conference game?

Just looked it up - Elmhurst in 2000.

This is the brutal reality.  I agree that there is more to winning and I'm sure Scott is teaching these guys to stay tough,  not to quit and how to keep working for the greater good.  However, if they win a CCIW game on top of that, then they will have accomplished something that nobody else could do in the last 8-9 years depending if that CCIW W comes next year or the following.

I'm sure they have set their sights higher too.  But, for now, they must get that first CCIW W.  Which I believe, would be a major accomplishment for NPU football.

Nobody's saying that it wouldn't be a breakthrough of tremendous magnitude, BP. I'm sure that there will be a lot of whooping and hollering and singing of "Hail to the Varsity" when the Vikings finally come out on top and snap that 54-game CCIW losing streak. However, saying that NPU will have achieved a major accomplishment by winning a CCIW football game, simply because it hasn't been able to do so since 2000, is the very definition of "faint praise". Marking success by the comparative standards of a repeatedly winless team does not interest Scott Pethtel at all. Like any coach worth his salt, he'd be insulted by the insinuation that he has achieved a major accomplishment just by winning a single football game in the midst of losing all of the rest of them. He's more interested in measuring major accomplishments by the standards that are customary to normal football programs. I mean, come on -- we're talking about one football game. No program that wins one conference football game over four years can be considered a success.

[Mr. Ypsi]

Very true, and Heidelberg is certainly the "poster-child" for how that breakthrough can blossom.  Prior to this season, they had won 4 games total this millenium (all against fellow bottom-feeders in the OAC), and were on a 36-game losing steak (even NPU has not approached that overall).  First game of the season, they beat Oberlin (ho-hum, but it WAS their first non-conference win in 'forever').  Later they beat OAC 'perennial contender' Bald-Wally ('wow, what a fluke'!), then followed up with two more OAC wins.  While hardly a threat yet to Mount Union (who is?), Heidelberg no longer gets mixed up in my head with Hiram ('let's see, which is the OAC 'dog', and which trails the NCAC?)!

Once NPU finally breaks through, there well be more than one CCIW team longing for 'the good old days'!  But for the sake of the conference health overall, I will welcome it - just so long as my Titans are not victims in some otherwise glorious year!

[burly]

He's more interested in measuring major accomplishments by the standards that are customary to normal football programs. I mean, come on -- we're talking about one football game. No program that wins one conference football game over four years can be considered a success.

Mr. Sager, inside the program, I think that is great.  It's what a coach should do to take the necessary steps to turning around a program.  However, these necessary steps really mean little to anybody outside the program.  In other words, until you start winning, those improvements have little validity.  Also, do normal football programs measure their major accomplishments by something more than winning?

I want you to know that I respect the fact that throughout the year you have called the boards' attention to what we are calling "improving metrics".  And, I would also not consider one CCIW victory over four years a success; however, it would be in the words of Mr. Tipsy, a significant "break through".  And, for the health of the conference, I welcome competition; it makes us all better...just as long as it doesn't result in a Thunder loss.

[Mr. Ypsi]

"Mr. Tipsy", eh?  Just wait 'til you have to sign on as "Hester Prynne"!

[Gregory Sager]

Mr. Sager, inside the program, I think that is great.  It's what a coach should do to take the necessary steps to turning around a program.  However, these necessary steps really mean little to anybody outside the program.  In other words, until you start winning, those improvements have little validity.  Also, do normal football programs measure their major accomplishments by something more than winning?

Yes, they measure their accomplishments by winning more than one game. They measure their accomplishments by winning multiple games.

And that is my entire point. I realize that NPU has to start somewhere. In the words of the ancient Chinese proverb, "A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step." Before the Vikings can win multiple CCIW games and be taken seriously as an opponent by the rest of the league, they first have to win a single game.

But if Scott Pethtel wins just that one single CCIW game in four years, it will make no difference in the greater scheme of things. He will have failed just as miserably, and just as thoroughly, as have Robin Cooper, Mike Liljegren, and the vast majority of their predecessors at the Park. One solitary CCIW win over the four-year career spans of Chris Durr, Shelby Wood, and Kelvyn West, in other words, really won't make a dime's worth of difference.

I want you to know that I respect the fact that throughout the year you have called the boards' attention to what we are calling "improving metrics".  And, I would also not consider one CCIW victory over four years a success; however, it would be in the words of Mr. Tipsy, a significant "break through".  And, for the health of the conference, I welcome competition; it makes us all better...just as long as it doesn't result in a Thunder loss.

Who's talking about "improving metrics" here? That was before. This current conversation is about winning football games.

Look, winning a CCIW football game will be a great and wonderful thing for NPU. Lord knows it's been a long time since it's happened. It will be worth celebrating and worth noting. But in terms of the program's progression it won't be an accomplishment in and of itself. Who in the world could ever be impressed by a team that goes 1-6 in the CCIW? A 1-6 team is not a team that deserves to have the words "major accomplishment" or "breakthrough" attached to it. A 1-6 football team is a bad football team. Moreover, a coach who has gone 1-27 over four years has not done his job; and players who go 1-27 over the course of their careers are not players who will remember their playing days fondly, or who will be remembered with unqualified respect.

[cardinaldad]

Just to clear up my post....I'm not even saying that Thorne deserved it over Eash.  There were some question marks about the Cardinal team coming into the season (mainly QB), but its not like the Cards had a talent shortage.

If anything, I kind of question a coaching staff that had the CCIW Offensive Player of the year platooning at QB the first few weeks of the season.  Obviously I wasn't around to see the Cards practice...I didn't see Fanthrope early in the year...maybe he was inconsistent and making stupid mistakes...but it does make one wonder.

From the beginning of the season, Fanthorpe was clearly the starter. One of two things MIGHT have led to the QB platooning:

     Either they made some promises to Kniss when he transferred (to get him here) and tried to give him every opportunity to win the starting job.......or, with Kniss not taking many reps at EIU, they were giving him the opportunity to shake out any cobwebs. The concensus was that Kyle was a better QB than Kam was. Perhaps the coaches were giving him every opportunity to prove it.

It does make one wonder, though!

[cardinaldad]

Just want to point out for the third consecutive year, the remarkable strides that the current NCC coaching staff has made with the program.  When I played at NCC, we were an afterthought.  If we went .500 it was a good season...and anything that was a winning record was a great season.

Now, it is going to be a dissappointment if the Cards fail to win the conference, or fail to make the playoffs.

I don't think anyone other than someone who was firsthand witness to the debacle that the program used to be...can fully appreciate the success that NCC has achieved. I don't mean to indicate that the prior coaching staffs were poor...there were many very good coaches and players at NCC in the past...but however the current combination of players and coaches was achieved...there is no arguing with their success.

As an alum, I am very proud of the results that NCC has achieved.  I just hope that the coaching staff is doing it the right way.  I have heard a few rumors about question marks with the program.

Rumors!?

[cardinalpride]

Former Card,
You make excellent points as to why JT should have won a COY in the last 5 years.  However, I'll liken it to Albert Pujols in baseball... the guy puts up monster #'s every year but there always seems to be someone (Ryan Howard in 2006) who does just a little bit better and steals the MVP from him.  As deserving as JT is in 2007, Eash just eeked it out in the end (and rightfully so).

I will add... (and I'm sure I'll probably take heat for this) as much as it is public knowledge that Eash is not well-liked, I do believe that JT is not on everyone's "favorite coach" list (outside of NCC players).

Thunderdog, there may be some truth to that statement!  John Thorn became the first football coach in CCIW history to win consecutive titles and NOT win COY honors in either year!  I will go out on a limb and say this has never happened in any NCAA conference that carries football and gives a COY award!

[Titan Q]

Thunderdog, there may be some truth to that statement!  John Thorn became the first football coach in CCIW history to win consecutive titles and NOT win COY honors in either year!  I will go out on a limb and say this has never happened in any NCAA conference that carries football and gives a COY award!

2005 Big Ten champ: Ohio State (7-1), Penn State (7-1)
2006 Big Ten champ: Ohio State (8-0)

2005 Big Ten Coach of the Year: Joe Paterno (Penn State)
2006 Big Ten Coach of the Year: Brett Beilema (Wisconsin)


2003 Big Ten champ: Michigan (7-1)
2004 Big Ten champ: Michigan (7-1), Iowa (7-1)

2003 Big Ten Coach of the Year: John L. Smith (Michigan State)
2004 Big Ten Coach of the Year: Kirk Ferentz (Iowa)

[FormerCard]

Thunderdog, there may be some truth to that statement!  John Thorn became the first football coach in CCIW history to win consecutive titles and NOT win COY honors in either year!  I will go out on a limb and say this has never happened in any NCAA conference that carries football and gives a COY award!

2005 Big Ten champ: Ohio State (7-1), Penn State (7-1)
2006 Big Ten champ: Ohio State (8-0)

2005 Big Ten Coach of the Year: Joe Paterno (Penn State)
2006 Big Ten Coach of the Year: Brett Beilema (Wisconsin)


2003 Big Ten champ: Michigan (7-1)
2004 Big Ten champ: Michigan (7-1), Iowa (7-1)

2003 Big Ten Coach of the Year: John L. Smith (Michigan State)
2004 Big Ten Coach of the Year: Kirk Ferentz (Iowa)

Has anyone seen the special on Ohio State/Michigan on HBO?   Its about Woody Hayes, and Bo Shembechler...Great hour long special  replaying the rivalry that can educate young football fans about the history between OSU and Michigan.. I never realized why Hayes lost his job, very interesting.

[redman04]

Has anyone seen the special on Ohio State/Michigan on HBO?   Its about Woody Hayes, and Bo Shembechler...Great hour long special  replaying the rivalry that can educate young football fans about the history between OSU and Michigan.. I never realized why Hayes lost his job, very interesting.

Did it mention anything about mine and BP's bet?

[Mugsy]

Former Card,
You make excellent points as to why JT should have won a COY in the last 5 years.  However, I'll liken it to Albert Pujols in baseball... the guy puts up monster #'s every year but there always seems to be someone (Ryan Howard in 2006) who does just a little bit better and steals the MVP from him.  As deserving as JT is in 2007, Eash just eeked it out in the end (and rightfully so).

I will add... (and I'm sure I'll probably take heat for this) as much as it is public knowledge that Eash is not well-liked, I do believe that JT is not on everyone's "favorite coach" list (outside of NCC players).

Thunderdog, there may be some truth to that statement!  John Thorn became the first football coach in CCIW history to win consecutive titles and NOT win COY honors in either year!  I will go out on a limb and say this has never happened in any NCAA conference that carries football and gives a COY award!

Someone needs to do just a bit of research before "going out on a limb".  You just found yourself on the ground in a daze, looking up at the stars with a tree branch in your hands.

[redman04]

Former Card,
You make excellent points as to why JT should have won a COY in the last 5 years.  However, I'll liken it to Albert Pujols in baseball... the guy puts up monster #'s every year but there always seems to be someone (Ryan Howard in 2006) who does just a little bit better and steals the MVP from him.  As deserving as JT is in 2007, Eash just eeked it out in the end (and rightfully so).

I will add... (and I'm sure I'll probably take heat for this) as much as it is public knowledge that Eash is not well-liked, I do believe that JT is not on everyone's "favorite coach" list (outside of NCC players).

Thunderdog, there may be some truth to that statement!  John Thorn became the first football coach in CCIW history to win consecutive titles and NOT win COY honors in either year!  I will go out on a limb and say this has never happened in any NCAA conference that carries football and gives a COY award!

Someone needs to do just a bit of research before "going out on a limb".  You just found yourself on the ground in a daze, looking up at the stars with a tree branch in your hands.

I agree mugsy... Settle down, there cardinalpride.  I hate to break it to you but there is no conspiracy against Thorn.  Whether he is liked or not, the coaches do not vote on popularity! 

[ncc58]

NCC's view of Franklin ...

http://www.suburbanchicagonews.com/napervillesun/sports/653532,6_2_NA16_NCCFB_S1.article

[KYGrizzly]

Thunderdog, there may be some truth to that statement!  John Thorn became the first football coach in CCIW history to win consecutive titles and NOT win COY honors in either year!  I will go out on a limb and say this has never happened in any NCAA conference that carries football and gives a COY award!

From the Heartland Conference:

2005 Conference Champion - Mount St. Joes.
2005 Coach of the Year - Robert Taylor(Defiance)

2006 Conference Champion - Mount St. Joes.
2006 Coach of the Year - Mike Leonard(Franklin)



















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