FB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[usee]

And the nation of D3 fans have watched Garcon in 3 Staggs.  I would venture to guess that very few fans outside of the CCIW have ever seen Studebaker play.

I agree with all these points but I don't think either of their chances rest upon who saw them play. If you simply look at their pro day and combine results you couldn't come to the conclusion that either one has an advantage over the other. I think the odds are pretty close on either/both/neither making it.  I guess I overestimated the intelligence of the voters.

[Jim Matson]

Great article in the Trib this morning on Studebaker and DIII football.  Of course, D3football.com was quoted - and the CCIW was mentioned as well.  Go buy a paper and read it - probably the best coverage I've ever seen for a CCIW player in the Tribune.

[matblake]

Great article in the Trib this morning on Studebaker and DIII football.  Of course, D3football.com was quoted - and the CCIW was mentioned as well.  Go buy a paper and read it - probably the best coverage I've ever seen for a CCIW player in the Tribune.

For those outside of the Chicago area, here's the link:  http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/chi-02-studebaker-vikingsmay02,0,2543494.story

[Mr. Ypsi]

Great article in the Trib this morning on Studebaker and DIII football.  Of course, D3football.com was quoted - and the CCIW was mentioned as well.  Go buy a paper and read it - probably the best coverage I've ever seen for a CCIW player in the Tribune.

For those outside of the Chicago area, here's the link:  http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/chi-02-studebaker-vikingsmay02,0,2543494.story

Thanks for the link, Mat - nice article.

[matblake]

Great article in the Trib this morning on Studebaker and DIII football.  Of course, D3football.com was quoted - and the CCIW was mentioned as well.  Go buy a paper and read it - probably the best coverage I've ever seen for a CCIW player in the Tribune.

For those outside of the Chicago area, here's the link:  http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/chi-02-studebaker-vikingsmay02,0,2543494.story

Thanks for the link, Mat - nice article.

We Michiganders need to stick together.

[Mr. Ypsi]

Great article in the Trib this morning on Studebaker and DIII football.  Of course, D3football.com was quoted - and the CCIW was mentioned as well.  Go buy a paper and read it - probably the best coverage I've ever seen for a CCIW player in the Tribune.

For those outside of the Chicago area, here's the link:  http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/chi-02-studebaker-vikingsmay02,0,2543494.story

Thanks for the link, Mat - nice article.

We Michiganders need to stick together.

I'm sure that spirit will be tested in the days leading up to November 8!

[Pat Coleman]

And the nation of D3 fans have watched Garcon in 3 Staggs.  I would venture to guess that very few fans outside of the CCIW have ever seen Studebaker play.

I agree with all these points but I don't think either of their chances rest upon who saw them play.

No, but their chances in the survey do.

[thunderdog]

... but I'm not thrilled about putting him at LB.   I've seen him play quite a bit and it's a strange leap one has to make when not having that hand on the ground at the snap of the ball and (especially) having to cover receivers downfield. 

Swede, (the mad)
I couldn't argree more.  Converting Andy to an OLB where he's be required to:
1. get his initial read thru the "tackle-to-FB" line of vision
2. respond accordingly
3. fill a gap on a run/drop to coverage on a pass
...are just a few of the things Andy has never (at least not in the past 4 years) been asked to do.  And to ask him to do so at the highest level imaginable, hurst his chances to 1. make the team outright and 2. ever become an impact player/starter/reliable back-up

Now, just becuase he's being called an "LB" doesn't mean he won't be lined up in a 3-pt. stance over a tackle/TE.  I don't pretend to know much about the Eagles D or even schemes outside of a 4-man front (yes... I like to pretend I know 4-3 & 4-4 schemes), but any alignment where Andy is off the line of scrimmage in a 2 pt stance does not cater to Andy's strengths.

All of Andy's shuttle times indicate he has the physical tools to be able to change directions quickly, get depth on zone coverages, and even hang with most TE's/ and some slot receivers in a man-to-man... but it's a whole new skillset that Andy hasn't spent the last 4 years perfecting.

IMHO, moving Andy off the ball would be doing him a HUGE disservice.  Andy could easily put on 20-30 lbs. in the next 1 to 2 years... he'll no longer be labeled "an undersized DE" and could develop into a sack and TFL master... that's his future.  To compare Andy's athleticism to other DE's in the NFL, he could potentially rank near the top.  To compare Andy's athleticism to other OLB's in the NFL, I don't see him ever ranking above average.

...and that's all I have to say 'bout that...

[usee]

couple pics of Andy at minicamp. click the link below then look at the pics on the right column for #53. there is one of him behind Jimmy Johnson and on the next row a good closeup of him playing OLB.

http://www.philadelphiaeagles.com/photos/index.asp?section_id=1398

[Gregory Sager]

IMHO, moving Andy off the ball would be doing him a HUGE disservice.  Andy could easily put on 20-30 lbs. in the next 1 to 2 years... he'll no longer be labeled "an undersized DE" and could develop into a sack and TFL master... that's his future.

You're making some seriously bold assumptions here. Football players don't "easily put on 20-30 lbs." and automatically step up in terms of strength without losing anything at the NFL level. You're talking about Studebaker adding on anywhere from another 8 to 12 percent of his body weight to his current physique -- and that's a considerable amount of mass, proportionally speaking -- and expecting him to not lose anything in the way of quickness and maneuverability. I don't see any evidence behind the thinking that it's that easy a thing to do in the NFL.

[washdupcard]

I don't doubt that Studebaker has the physical and mental skills to get a contract and make an NFL season roster, but I'm not thrilled about putting him at LB.   I've seen him play quite a bit and it's a strange leap one has to make when not having that hand on the ground at the snap of the ball and (especially) having to cover receivers downfield.  His mutant-ish physical skills will help, but I think this puts him at a disadvantage from the get-go -- although I suppose teams like a special teams guy that's a twofer with the ability to be a long-yardage specialist or something like that.

I'm also skeptical about some people viewing this as some sort of validation of D3 football or something.  I am thrilled for Wheaton and the potential recruiting impact and I am thrilled for Andy, but having played the D3 game, it makes perfect sense that D3 guys, D2 guys and most D1 guys end up as computer programmers or salesman or fireman or entrepreneurs or whatever, and not professional athletes.  There's just not a lot of room in the "best in the entire word" category.  Andy's drafting says a lot about Andy, but not as much about D3 athletics.

I am sure anyone that played against me would agree wholeheartedly!

I don't know about you guys...but I was only 3 inches short from playing in the NFL right now.  Oh...and about 20lbs of muscle....and about .2 tenths of a second in the 40...other than that I'm an all pro.

[thunderdog]

IMHO, moving Andy off the ball would be doing him a HUGE disservice.  Andy could easily put on 20-30 lbs. in the next 1 to 2 years... he'll no longer be labeled "an undersized DE" and could develop into a sack and TFL master... that's his future.

You're making some seriously bold assumptions here. Football players don't "easily put on 20-30 lbs." and automatically step up in terms of strength without losing anything at the NFL level. You're talking about Studebaker adding on anywhere from another 8 to 12 percent of his body weight to his current physique -- and that's a considerable amount of mass, proportionally speaking -- and expecting him to not lose anything in the way of quickness and maneuverability. I don't see any evidence behind the thinking that it's that easy a thing to do in the NFL.

Mr. Sager,
There's a fork in the road for Andy... either he:
1. adds 20-30 lbs. and continues to play the same position (rush DE) he's played for the past 4 year.

or

2. learns a whole new skillset as an OLB with different reads, different responsibilites, different movements.

Anyone who considers #2 to be the easier path, especially at the NFL level, is fooling themselves.

Why do you consider it to be harder to add lbs at the NFL level vs any other level?  It's not.

Andy came to Wheaton weighing roughly 200lbs.  Over 4 years, he added 55 lbs of muscle WITHOUT LOSING SPEED OR QUICKNESS (or at the very most, an extremely minimal amount of speed and quickness).  What is so unthinkable about doing the same thing on a smaller scale?

Most people would describe Andy as a "slim", "ripped", "cut" 255 lbs... meaning, he's got the frame to add more mass.  Last I looked, Force = Mass x Acceleration... Andy only lacks the mass needed to play with the 300+ lbs OT's of the NFL.  Even at 255 and just a rookie, Andy's strength is already comparable to the strongest DE's in the entire league.  It's not so much strength as "bulk" that he needs to be a DE.  Can he add bulk without losing speed and quickness?  Absolutely.  He's done it before, he can do it again.  Will it be easy?  No.  Will it take time?  Yes.  Will it be easier than learning to be an OLB?  No question.

[CardinalAlum]

I don't know about you guys...but I was only 3 inches short from playing in the NFL right now.  Oh...and about 20lbs of muscle....and about .2 tenths of a second in the 40...other than that I'm an all pro.

3 inches short??    That would have made you 5'5.  .2 tenths??  Shaving those two tenths is still a 5.5 40 for you!!  Who you kidding?   

[Gregory Sager]

IMHO, moving Andy off the ball would be doing him a HUGE disservice.  Andy could easily put on 20-30 lbs. in the next 1 to 2 years... he'll no longer be labeled "an undersized DE" and could develop into a sack and TFL master... that's his future.

You're making some seriously bold assumptions here. Football players don't "easily put on 20-30 lbs." and automatically step up in terms of strength without losing anything at the NFL level. You're talking about Studebaker adding on anywhere from another 8 to 12 percent of his body weight to his current physique -- and that's a considerable amount of mass, proportionally speaking -- and expecting him to not lose anything in the way of quickness and maneuverability. I don't see any evidence behind the thinking that it's that easy a thing to do in the NFL.

Mr. Sager,
There's a fork in the road for Andy... either he:
1. adds 20-30 lbs. and continues to play the same position (rush DE) he's played for the past 4 year.

or

2. learns a whole new skillset as an OLB with different reads, different responsibilites, different movements.

I agree.

Anyone who considers #2 to be the easier path, especially at the NFL level, is fooling themselves.

I never said that #2 was the easier path. What I objected to was the rather nonchalant way that you spelled out path #1 in your first post on Sunday. Whether you intended it that way or not, you made it sound as though Studebaker could snap his fingers and voila! be the exact same player he was before, only with thirty extra pounds of muscle on his frame.

Why do you consider it to be harder to add lbs at the NFL level vs any other level?  It's not.

Why do you believe that I consider it to be harder to add pounds at the NFL level? I never said any such thing. In fact, it's probably easier to add pounds at the NFL level versus any other level, because in the NFL you have strength coaches and nutritionists monitoring you more closely than the Russkies monitored Ivan Drago in Rocky IV.

Andy came to Wheaton weighing roughly 200lbs.  Over 4 years, he added 55 lbs of muscle WITHOUT LOSING SPEED OR QUICKNESS (or at the very most, an extremely minimal amount of speed and quickness).  What is so unthinkable about doing the same thing on a smaller scale?

Because he isn't in Division III football anymore, that's why. He's in the NFL, which might as well be the moon in terms of how much his prior experiences apply to his current situation. Losing "an extremely minimal amount of speed and quickness" at the NFL could easily prove fatal to his career, because extremely minimal amounts of speed and quickness are the very measuring sticks that determine who makes a team and who gets cut. Studebaker already has two strikes against him in that he is undersized for an NFL defensive end and he is the product of small-college football and has thus only faced inferior competition up until now. He can't afford to lose even a fraction of the physical abilities that have gotten him this far.

Most people would describe Andy as a "slim", "ripped", "cut" 255 lbs... meaning, he's got the frame to add more mass.  Last I looked, Force = Mass x Acceleration...

Thanks, Isaac. But it's not as simple as invoking the second law of motion. The human body is not a celestial object moving through a vacuum. It's an imperfect machine that is subject to gravity, stress, and biomechanics. It doesn't matter how lean is the frame with which you start out; if you add ten percent or more of your body weight to it you stand a very good chance of losing quickness.

Even at 255 and just a rookie, Andy's strength is already comparable to the strongest DE's in the entire league.  It's not so much strength as "bulk" that he needs to be a DE.

Bulk is inert weight. Adding it will give him better leverage, and perhaps more strength (although that's not a given), but, as I said, the odds are very good that it will slow him down as well -- and when you're asked to be a pass-rush specialist, being slowed down by additional bulk could prove to be the death knell of your career.

Can he add bulk without losing speed and quickness?  Absolutely.  He's done it before, he can do it again.

Not at the NFL level, he hasn't.

Will it be easy?  No.  Will it take time?  Yes.  Will it be easier than learning to be an OLB?  No question.

And, again, I'm not arguing that. The OLB vs. DE dispute is not my concern here.

Look, for the sake of the league I'd like to see Studebaker succeed as much as does anyone else. But I'm not drinking the kool-aid on this one. You simply can't put thirty pounds on a 255-pound man and expect him to be as quick as he was before. Can it be done? Yes, but it's extremely unlikely. And even if the lost quickness is fractional, we're talking about a league that measures its athletes in fractional terms. For every freakishly gifted athlete like Studebaker in the NFL, there's ten more freakishly gifted athletes available who could take away his roster spot.

As I said yesterday, on Sunday you made it all sound easier than it actually is.

[usee]

Look, for the sake of the league I'd like to see Studebaker succeed as much as does anyone else. But I'm not drinking the kool-aid on this one. You simply can't put thirty pounds on a 255-pound man and expect him to be as quick as he was before. Can it be done? Yes, but it's extremely unlikely. And even if the lost quickness is fractional, we're talking about a league that measures its athletes in fractional terms. For every freakishly gifted athlete like Studebaker in the NFL, there's ten more freakishly gifted athletes available who could take away his roster spot.

As I said yesterday, on Sunday you made it all sound easier than it actually is.

Greg,

Studebaker ran 4.6 and jumped 36.5 inches, broad jumped 10'7". His numbers put him in the top 5 of all RUNNING BACKS let alone LB's or DLinemen.  If he adds 30 lbs and runs 4.7 and jumps 35.5, he is still faster, stronger and more athletic than almost every other defensive end in the NFL. Fractional lost quickness is not the issue here. Andy's biggest issue is the team that drafted him isn't giving him the chance to add any weight and put his hand down. he is an OLB and has to learn a position, in the NFL, that is extremely complex. I would feel a lot better if he were in a system with a 3-4 team but philly isn't that. He could learn to play LB in 2-3 yrs but he better be God's gift to special teams in the mean time. the deck is stacked.