FB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[FormerCard]

I am relatively new to this clash with NCC and Wheaton, so I wondered if the coaching staff carry the rivalry as far as the fans.  I was very surprised to watch the play calling, particularly in the late 3rd and entire 4th quarter from NCC.  It seemed there was a desire to run up the score instead of shortening the game and winning comfortably. 

Throwing the ball on nearly every play can lead to so many bad things.  I know they were having success on break downs in coverage, but they also successfully ran the ball.  NCC seemed to avoid shortening the game by running the ball and staying in bounds on almost every series until the last 5 minute drive.  Even at the end of that drive throwing the ball on 4th down into the endzone from 25 yards out felt like anger more than respecting the opponent.  I may be completely off, but it just felt like it was to an in your face moment.

I wouldnt call it running up the score at all.  When playing a team like Wheaton, you need to stay aggressive and both Thornes knew what they were doing.  The goal against a team like Wheaton is to score every time you get the ball and take advantage when they are focusing on stopping the run.  When blitzing backers are coming, it makes sense to throw the ball when you have an accurate QB.

I would guess that scoring 50 may have been in the back of the Coaches minds, but I think staying aggressive and finding the holes was the goal for NC in the 2nd Half. 

NC outscored Wheaton 23-0 in the 1st half.  It was a 21-21 game in the second half.  If NC gets timid and starts just trying to run out the clock, it could be a 21-7 second half and now the Cardinals are only up 9 points. When playing a good team, you have to focus on staying aggressive the entire game because momentum can change very quickly and good teams will score alot of points.  We were clicking, so we had to keep the momentum.

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     Re: TOP 25
« Reply #4 on: July 14, 2008, 01:19:14 pm »     

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I think North Central is underrated in all the polls. 

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      Re: TOP 25
« Reply #5 on: July 14, 2008, 01:21:44 pm »   

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Underrated at No. 8?

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Quote from: old 40 on September 25, 2007, 07:23:57 pm
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     Re: TOP 25
« Reply #6 on: July 14, 2008, 01:34:03 pm »     

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They will make the quarter finals this year for sure....unless injury kills them
 

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      Re: TOP 25
« Reply #7 on: July 14, 2008, 01:43:04 pm »   

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Perhaps, but most years only two of Mount Union, Wabash and North Central could make the North finals.

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Quote from: old 40 on September 25, 2007, 07:23:57 pm


The above was posted during the summer...

I am glad to see North Central getting the well deserved respect in the polls now..
WABASH ALWAYS FIGHTS

[wally_wabash]

Couldn't agree more FormerCard.  A couple of weeks ago, Wittenberg got super conservative in the fourth quarter against Wabash and really opened the door for the late fourth quarter comeback. 

No lead is safe against really good teams like Wheaton and with a conference championship on the line, you can leave nothing to chance.  There is the rivalry aspect of the game and while I'm sure nobody at NCC would have been too upset if the score got way out of hand, I think the primary concern there was to make sure they won the game.  And in this case specifically, going to a run-run-run-punt offense is doubly dangerous when you're kicking to a guy like Ittersagen.  Leads and game momentum can disappear quickly when a team has a threat like that on special teams. 

[FormerCard]

Couldn't agree more FormerCard.  A couple of weeks ago, Wittenberg got super conservative in the fourth quarter against Wabash and really opened the door for the late fourth quarter comeback. 

No lead is safe against really good teams like Wheaton and with a conference championship on the line, you can leave nothing to chance.  There is the rivalry aspect of the game and while I'm sure nobody at NCC would have been too upset if the score got way out of hand, I think the primary concern there was to make sure they won the game.  And in this case specifically, going to a run-run-run-punt offense is doubly dangerous when you're kicking to a guy like Ittersagen.  Leads and game momentum can disappear quickly when a team has a threat like that on special teams. 

I didnt even mention Ittersagen, but that is a great point.  He is a threat to break it open at any time.

[Mr. Ypsi]

Couldn't agree more FormerCard.  A couple of weeks ago, Wittenberg got super conservative in the fourth quarter against Wabash and really opened the door for the late fourth quarter comeback. 

No lead is safe against really good teams like Wheaton and with a conference championship on the line, you can leave nothing to chance.  There is the rivalry aspect of the game and while I'm sure nobody at NCC would have been too upset if the score got way out of hand, I think the primary concern there was to make sure they won the game.  And in this case specifically, going to a run-run-run-punt offense is doubly dangerous when you're kicking to a guy like Ittersagen.  Leads and game momentum can disappear quickly when a team has a threat like that on special teams. 

I didnt even mention Ittersagen, but that is a great point.  He is a threat to break it open at any time.

I agree.  But there are limits.  In 1968, OSU scored a td to make the game against Michigan 48-14 with little time remaining.  Woody went for (and got) a two point conversion.  Asked afterwards why he went for two at that stage, he replied "because I couldn't go for three."

In 1969 OSU had (according to SI in October) 'the greatest team EVER".  Michigan and first-year coach Bo Schembechler had seethed about (and spent half of EVERY practice preparing for) OSU.  Result: 24-12 Michigan.

Be very wary of letting up too soon, but also be wary of crossing the line!

[ncc58]

I am relatively new to this clash with NCC and Wheaton, so I wondered if the coaching staff carry the rivalry as far as the fans.  I was very surprised to watch the play calling, particularly in the late 3rd and entire 4th quarter from NCC.  It seemed there was a desire to run up the score instead of shortening the game and winning comfortably. 

I'm not sure how you determined that North Central was running up the score.

The score was 23-0 at halftime. Wheaton scored quickly at the start of the 3rd quarter. NCC came back up a score, and added another touchdown after  a Wheaton turnover to take a 37-7 lead.

Next, Wheaton scored two quick TDs to get within 16 points - that's two scores. If NCC does nothing, Wheaton could have made it a one score lead.

On the last TD drive, NCC began at their 36 yard line with 9:17 to play. The drive consisted on 12 plays  and consumed 6 minutes and 29 seconds - 10 running plays and 2 passing plays. The TD pass was on a 4th and 8 from the Wheaton 25 (the other pass on the drive was incomplete). They weren't exactly throwing the ball all over the field.

[orsky]

I think that is kind of my point though.  NCC didn't really run the ball at all in several series.  Wheaton didn't necessarily stuff the running game, NCC just seemed to avoid it.  If Ittersagen had intercepted a pass and run it back, a certain level of panic may have set in and the wide open style of play on offense and defense would have seemed foolish.  Particularly with so much time still on the clock.  I'm not saying to pound it out and punt, I just believe eating some clock would have ensured the win without so much risk.  NCC played great, not taking anything away.  Just wasn't sure if this was a desire to prove a point or if the objective was to win.  Like I stated at the beginning, not sure of the history, so I don't know if there is bad blood.

[orsky]

I agree NCC did finally run the ball in the last series and Wheaton wasn't able to stop it.  Why not try that earlier and shorten the game?  Not looking for an argument, just a discussion.

[FormerCard]

Couldn't agree more FormerCard.  A couple of weeks ago, Wittenberg got super conservative in the fourth quarter against Wabash and really opened the door for the late fourth quarter comeback. 

No lead is safe against really good teams like Wheaton and with a conference championship on the line, you can leave nothing to chance.  There is the rivalry aspect of the game and while I'm sure nobody at NCC would have been too upset if the score got way out of hand, I think the primary concern there was to make sure they won the game.  And in this case specifically, going to a run-run-run-punt offense is doubly dangerous when you're kicking to a guy like Ittersagen.  Leads and game momentum can disappear quickly when a team has a threat like that on special teams. 

I didnt even mention Ittersagen, but that is a great point.  He is a threat to break it open at any time.

I agree.  But there are limits.  In 1968, OSU scored a td to make the game against Michigan 48-14 with little time remaining.  Woody went for (and got) a two point conversion.  Asked afterwards why he went for two at that stage, he replied "because I couldn't go for three."

In 1969 OSU had (according to SI in October) 'the greatest team EVER".  Michigan and first-year coach Bo Schembechler had seethed about (and spent half of EVERY practice preparing for) OSU.  Result: 24-12 Michigan.

Be very wary of letting up too soon, but also be wary of crossing the line!

And that was before the BCS and style points.

[usee]

North Central was just running their offense. They are a spread formation and can run or pass depending on what they are having success with. Their running game wasn't nearly as efficient as it has been and Fanthorpe was having no problem passing. Sulo averaged 4.0 yds a carry and Gingg averaged 3.9. both qb's had similar rushing stats (Norris' was adjusted for the 5 sacks). It never entered my mind they were doing anything but staying with their normal offense.

[Mr. Ypsi]

special to Greg Sager

news alert - Wheaton has lost twice in Women's soccer and is no longer in first place - film at eleven.

dgp

In fact, Wheaton is currently in FOURTH place!

(Alas, I don't believe for a minute that that will last.)

[Gregory Sager]

the lowly state brought upon by the spate of injuries to the few talented North Park football players is in direct correlation to their being over-played.

One of the hallmarks of any good football team is to play your roster - to rotate players in to give them experience - so you have varsity depth when someone gets hurt.

North Park plays its few good players until they drop - its a bad coaching technique - repeated annually ad nauseum.

It leads to poor performances on the field by the substitutes when they are inevitably thrown too the wolves, lack of morale on the sidelines (by those not getting a chance to play), and consequently a terrible retention rate (hence North Park's three seniors on this year's roster).

Why anyone in their right mind would expect things to change at North Park when they continue to do the same things year after year that have led to their present failures.  2 and 2 is still going to equal 4.

Bad coaching + poor player retention = non-competitive and losing football programs.

dgp

King Dennis,

I guess it depends on the backups.  There are many times when a tired, worn down starter is still better than your 2nd stringer.  At NP, they probably have many freshmen backing starters up and may not be ready for live CCIW action.  From an outsiders perspective, Pethtel is doing the best he can at a school where it has been tough to win at. 

That's exactly right, CardinalAlum. NPU just doesn't have backups that are good enough to hold their own on the field against a CCIW opponent. As much as the Vikings reach diminishing returns by playing overworked starters, Scott Pethtel is still better off using those overworked starters than he would be to use guys who can't handle this level (or whom at least can't handle it yet).

And I would suppose by that hypothesis that the over-worked starters, who are played to exhaustion, get hurt, and are now standing on the sidelines in street clothes for the rest of the season, are still better in their street clothes than the players with no varsity experience that are now thrown to the lions and have to play serious varsity minutes without ever being on the field before.

Good teams rotate their players - even the bad ones - to establish esprit de corps and a sense of belonging to the team and the team effort.

By not playing their bench properly the North Park coaching staff may very well be committing fraud in recruiting people and telling them they'll have a chance to play, but not telling them that they'll only play if a better player gets hurt from overexposure on the field and then you'll get your chance without any previous experience.

The problem, as I see it, is that "Scott Pethel and his staff are doing the best they can" that's the mantra of the shortsighted North Park faithful.  North Park will never build a successful program until "doing the best they can" is replaced by "doing the best possible."

but, just perhaps they don't know how do any better....

The players that are on the field now aren't inexperienced players who are being "thrown to the lions." The players that are on the field now are a mixture of the original starters and the limited number of rotational subs with which the team started the season. The players who are now subbing in (inasmuch as NPU is subbing now at all) are the untested ones.

Mugsy gets at the heart of the matter when he speaks of using the otherwise-untested players on special teams. NPU's special teams have been horrifically bad all season. Guess why? It's because that's where the players who aren't ready for prime time, the ones whom you want to see on the field so badly, Dennis, have been playing. And it's where they've been exposed while games have still been competitive. Special teams were so bad that Scott Pethtel went away from that and used some of his starters on special teams this past week against Millikin. It arguably wore down the starters even faster, which was a minus; but it did shore up special-teams play (the two-point conversion that put NPU up 8-7 in the second quarter, for instance, was scored on a fake by starting DB Nick Pantaleo).

And your quip about leaving in the starters to buttress Shelby Wood's stats is misplaced. Wood's been taken out of four games thus far this season; Ron Ratajczyk's played QB in four games, and Chris Roberson has played in two. The only reason why Wood is throwing the ball constantly is because NPU has not been able to run effectively against anyone except Benedictine and Elmhurst.

NPU has had a total of 62 players see game action this season. The posted roster on the North Park website has 78 players listed on it, and I strongly doubt that there were that many in uniform when the season started. Scott Pethtel is playing his roster, Dennis, or as much of it as is any other coach in this league. The question is how much he can get away with playing his third-stringers (and many of his second-stringers), who are in no way, shape, or form ready to handle CCIW football. You can say that his miserly parceling out of opportunities to the scrubs is hurting morale, but is it really going to help the team's esprit de corps if he plays everybody in a constant rotation and NPU loses by a score of 122-14? And I'm not exaggerating that score; if he were to do what you are suggesting, it's quite likely that Augie, Carthage, and Wesleyan would each break triple digits against the Vikings. They each have the offenses, and the depth, to do so.

[Gregory Sager]

special to Greg Sager

news alert - Wheaton has lost twice in Women's soccer and is no longer in first place - film at eleven.

In fact, Wheaton is currently in FOURTH place!

(Alas, I don't believe for a minute that that will last.)

I'm not going to leap to Wheaton's defense for any sport; if I did, I'd feel like I needed to take a shower after I hit the "post" button. But is 90-5 really that much worse than 90-4? And Wheaton is still the champion in that particular sport until someone dethrones the Sonic Atmospheric Disturbance. And if someone does dethrone the Sonic Atmospheric Disturbance, I will be happy to be the one to unhook the red velvet rope in front of the door and say, "Welcome, everyone, to the CCIW women's soccer room. That gentleman seated over there is your host, Jim Matson. Play nice and don't get too riled up, because we all know that this is a competitive sport within this conference."

[burly]

Has any team won both CCIW Offensive and Defensive POY?  After tonight's performance, I don't know two better candidates.

yes, it's happened many times. Go back and look at the Augie teams from the 80's. I think they won both awards every year. Also happened several times in the 90's if I recall.

Yeah, I should have asked when was the last time any team won both offensive and defensive POY awards. The answer is 1997.

Also, the Art Keller Offensive POY and Don Larson Defensive POY awards were first given out in 1962 and 1977, respectively. Since 1977, only six times have both awards been given to an individual team in the same year – four times for Augie and twice for the Titans.

1984
Offense – John Rooney, IWU, Keith Bishop, Wheaton, Greg King, Augustana
Defense – Joe Wheeler, Augustana

1986
Offense – Brad Price, Augustana
Defense – Lynn Thomsen, Augustana

1994
Offense – Scott Tumility, Augustana, Mark Loeffler, Wheaton
Defense – Rusty VanWetzinga, Augustana

1995
Offense – Scott Tumility, Augustana, Jeff Brown, Wheaton
Defense – Rusty VanWetzinga, Augustana

1996
Offense - Lon Erickson, IWU
Defense – John Munch, IWU, Chip Parrish, Wheaton

1997
Offense - Eric Larsen, IWU
Defense - John Much, IWU

[burly]

Two additional notes:

First, if Fanthorpe wins the offensive POY award this year, he will not only be a repeat winner, but he will be the second NC QB to repeat winning the award.  Kam Kniss won in '05 and '06.  Hats off to Thorne on the recruiting/coaching front.  And, keep in mind, Fanthorpe is a JR this year.

Second, [where is the] John Love from North Park is the only offensive player to ever win the award for the Vikings which he did in 1990. On the defensive side, there is also only one player from North Park to have ever won the award, Fred Battaglia in 1981.