FB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[HScoach]

HSC,

Thanks for weighing in. I tried to tell Chuck but he doesn't listen. 

Where would you put Rocky Pentello and Tom Arth on your list? I am guessing they would be down the list a few spots.

Sadly, as a CCIW guy, I have seen all those quarterbacks play, although I only watched Ballard in the Stagg on TV.

Tom Arth and Rocky Pentello were both great QB's that each pushed Mount to the limit.  I'd add them to the list as follows:

1.  Bill Borchert - was a killer option QB in high school and would have been the perfect QB for the modern spread option/passing game that so many teams run now.  Back in the mid-90's, the Mount offense was built on a pocket passing attack with the occasional rollout to keep the D honest.  How LK found the greatest passer in MUC history coming out of a high school where he threw the ball a total of 17 times I'll never know.  Guess that's why LK is the coach and I'm just a radio guy.

2.  Jim Ballard - always amazed he didn't make it in the league.  All the physical tools and had the immense swagger needed to carry MUC to their 1st title.  Was one tough SOB playing QB!  Was bigger than most of his lineman and moved great in the pocket.

3.  Tom Arth - serious D1 size, strength and arm.  A Jim Ballard-clone.

Here's where it gets interesting.  Micheli and Pentello are very close in my book, but for different reasons.  Micheli is extremely smart and efficient, but Pentello had the gun.

4.  Rocky Pentello - I put Rocky above Greg because of arm strength alone.  His knock was he didn't always make the best decisions, but he had better pure physical tools.

5.  Greg Micheli - easily the smartest of LK's great QB's.  Great athlete that walked away from D1 scholarships to the MAC to play QB at Mount.  He might be getting hurt a bit on this evaluation because he isn't the entire offense like the 4 guys I have listed above him.  Therefore it's hard for me to place him above Pentello because Rocky had to be The Man every offensive snap and he did it very well.  If beleive Micheli could be that too, but without ever having to actually do it for an entire season, I can't move him ahead of Pentello.

6.  Gary Smeck - marginal athlete overall, but a smart player with great accuracy. 

7.  Rob Adamson - pure pocket passer that knew a perfect ball.  Might be higher on the list if it wasn't for his "me first" attitude.

8.  Mike Jorris - strong arm and played well in big games, but not the greatest decision maker week in and week out.  Could also be somewhat inconsistent.

9.  Zach Bruney - tremendous athlete playing QB with decent arm strength but not the most accurate.  Would have been the perfect wishbone QB.

[usee]

Great stuff and very candid comments as usual HSCoach, thanks. And don't sell yourself short, I find you very offensive! 

[usee]

I have another question for you penny analysts in the room:

What, if anything,  does it me that Wheaton turned it over 4x vs Trine and won 14-0 and Franklin turned it over 5x v Trine and lost 30-27?

[Mugsy]

I have another question for you penny analysts in the room:

What, if anything,  does it me that Wheaton turned it over 4x vs Trine and won 14-0 and Franklin turned it over 5x v Trine and lost 30-27?

Umm... Wheaton won and Franklin lost.   

On a serious note, one could infer Wheaton is a tad bit stronger due to being able to overcome turnovers and still beat a common opponent.  The problem to me is when these games took place.

Wheaton was 2 weeks ago, a time where Wheaton is clearly playing its best ball of the year.  The Franklin/Trine game was what, week 3?  Is the week 3 version of Franklin anywhere near the current team?  I dunno... I'd think not.

[HScoach]

Great stuff and very candid comments as usual HSCoach, thanks. And don't sell yourself short, I find you very offensive! 

Thanks.  I take great pride in being an equal opportunity offender!

Good luck to Wheaton this weekend.  I have great respect for Coach Swider and his program and wouldn't be surprised at all to see the CRUSADERS move on.

[Mr. Ypsi]

HSC,

Thanks for weighing in. I tried to tell Chuck but he doesn't listen. 

I was not attempting to argue that Micheli was equal to (much less better than) Borchert - for those sorts of comparisons I defer to the MUC guys, who are quite unanimous in favor of Borchert.  I was simply taking issue with what I saw as a slight to Micheli - you saying that dividing Borchert's stats in half would give you Micheli.  Since Bill started all four years, while Greg has only started two, on a career basis that may be roughly true.  On a single season basis (the stats I listed), it is clearly untrue.  (Though, although aware of it, I did forget to take into account that MUC's site still omits Borchert's post-season stats.)

An intriguing (albeit, fruitless) speculation would be what Micheli's stats would be if he didn't have Kmic and had to be the 'whole offense', ala Borchert.  Likewise, what would they be if he regularly played beyond halftime.

[BashDad]

I have another question for you penny analysts in the room:

What, if anything,  does it me that Wheaton turned it over 4x vs Trine and won 14-0 and Franklin turned it over 5x v Trine and lost 30-27?

Umm... Wheaton won and Franklin lost.   

On a serious note, one could infer Wheaton is a tad bit stronger due to being able to overcome turnovers and still beat a common opponent.  The problem to me is when these games took place.

Wheaton was 2 weeks ago, a time where Wheaton is clearly playing its best ball of the year.  The Franklin/Trine game was what, week 3?  Is the week 3 version of Franklin anywhere near the current team?  I dunno... I'd think not.

Whew. That offense turned it over 5 times and put up damn-near 30 points??!!

I'd say, if anything, it's a indication that wheaton's defense is better than franklin's.

[footballfan413]

I have another question for you penny analysts in the room:

What, if anything,  does it me that Wheaton turned it over 4x vs Trine and won 14-0 and Franklin turned it over 5x v Trine and lost 30-27?

Umm... Wheaton won and Franklin lost.   

On a serious note, one could infer Wheaton is a tad bit stronger due to being able to overcome turnovers and still beat a common opponent.  The problem to me is when these games took place.

Wheaton was 2 weeks ago, a time where Wheaton is clearly playing its best ball of the year.  The Franklin/Trine game was what, week 3?  Is the week 3 version of Franklin anywhere near the current team?  I dunno... I'd think not.

Whew. That offense turned it over 5 times and put up damn-near 30 points??!!

I'd say, if anything, it's a indication that wheaton's defense is better than franklin's.

That was my take on it.   Wheaton held a common oponent to zero while Franklin allowed the same team 30 points. BIG difference even if they took place at opposite ends of the season.    I am still leaning toward the Thunder because of 3 things.  Better pass defense, slight edge in the run game and strength of conference but who knows! 

[usee]

HSC,

Thanks for weighing in. I tried to tell Chuck but he doesn't listen. 

  On a single season basis (the stats I listed), it is clearly untrue.  (Though, although aware of it, I did forget to take into account that MUC's site still omits Borchert's post-season stats.)

Well, Borchert threw for 63 Td's and 1 INT in 1997. Micheli is at 31 TD's and 2 Int. I am not a numbers guy like you but that's about half by my estimate. 

An intriguing (albeit, fruitless) speculation would be what Micheli's stats would be if he didn't have Kmic and had to be the 'whole offense', ala Borchert.  Likewise, what would they be if he regularly played beyond halftime.

If you go back and look at the scores I don't think Borchert was playing many 2nd half snaps either. 

[GRIZ_BACKER]

I have another question for you penny analysts in the room:

What, if anything,  does it me that Wheaton turned it over 4x vs Trine and won 14-0 and Franklin turned it over 5x v Trine and lost 30-27?

Umm... Wheaton won and Franklin lost.   

On a serious note, one could infer Wheaton is a tad bit stronger due to being able to overcome turnovers and still beat a common opponent.  The problem to me is when these games took place.

Wheaton was 2 weeks ago, a time where Wheaton is clearly playing its best ball of the year.  The Franklin/Trine game was what, week 3?  Is the week 3 version of Franklin anywhere near the current team?  I dunno... I'd think not.

Whew. That offense turned it over 5 times and put up damn-near 30 points??!!

I'd say, if anything, it's a indication that wheaton's defense is better than franklin's.

That was my take on it.   Wheaton held a common oponent to zero while Franklin allowed the same team 30 points. BIG difference even if they took place at opposite ends of the season.    I am still leaning toward the Thunder because of 3 things.  Better pass defense, slight edge in the run game and strength of conference but who knows! 

Using your logic of common opponents the 44-21 spread NCC had over Wheaton means nothing??  And what about the Elmhurst factor??  You may be able to rationalize your way to a blowout if you work at it.  FC was a 3 TD underdog to various posters (CCIW, OAC, and HCAC) the last two games.   Leonard, Rupp and company are ready to settle it on the field.  So far the scoreboard has done the talking.

[Mugsy]

Using your logic of common opponents the 44-21 spread NCC had over Wheaton means nothing??  And what about the Elmhurst factor??  You may be able to rationalize your way to a blowout if you work at it.  FC was a 3 TD underdog to various posters (CCIW, OAC, and HCAC) the last two games.   Leonard, Rupp and company are ready to settle it on the field.  So far the scoreboard has done the talking.

So we aren't allowed to discuss various facets of this match-up or try to understand key differentiators between the two teams?  We aren't supposed to formulate our own opinion on what may transpire on Saturday?  Where is the fun in that?  No matter what we say here, it won't make a bit of difference on Saturday...

Incidentally the post you were responding to wasn't even from a CCIW poster.  He is a WIAC poster looking to understand more about Wheaton's side of this matchup.  He may not even know the full extent of how NCC handled Wheaton in their mid-season match, nor that Wheaton played horribly the following week against Elmhurst (who was a 7-3 team in the CCIW, so it's not like Wheaton lost to a horrible team).  It seems to me he was responding to the outcome against Trine.

You will find everyone on the CCIW board understands the game will be decided on the field Saturday.  You should also know that Wheaton will be ready to settle it on the field as well, regardless of what I post or anyone else here.  I'm not sure of what you are trying to infer there.

The best team, or at least the team that executes best and makes the least number of errors, will win on Saturday.  Right now I find this to be the most intriguing game in the quarterfinals.  If you go look at many of the Pick-Em's boards, the Wheaton/Franklin tilt is coming in close to a 50/50 or  60/40 split.  All other games appear to be very one sided on paper.  I'm honestly still struggling to understand which team appears to have an upper hand, but that it means ABSOLUTELY ZIPPO at this point.  Who knows... maybe Franklin comes out and totally waxes Wheaton by 3 TD's on Saturday? 

There seems to be the overwhelming sense of "no one is showing us any respect" or "it's us against the world"...  In prior weeks, perhaps that was so.  In most posts I've read this week I don't see it.  There is prognostication and opinion, but no where have I seen "Wheaton is gonna kill Franklin", "Franklin doesn't stand a chance...".  I believe most feel Wheaton has a really good chance, but if and only if they play anywhere near like they have the past 2 weeks and limit turnovers.  I think most feel Franklin is the favorite at this point.

I dunno... maybe I'm overreacting.  But I read nothing but honest speculation and attempts to understand the tipping points to this game.  You will not however, ever remove opinion.  If you don't agree with it, fine.  State as such.  But as you state... I'm sure the scoreboard will do the talking on Saturday regardless...   

[Gregory Sager]

I'd bet there are at least 4-5 posters (and more on CCIW Chat) who saw Anderson play (he was one year behind me).  Since the game was so different back then, he barely appears in CCIW records, and I can't find any write-ups or game summaries from his era.  He led the league in passing his sophomore and junior years (but not his senior year, when he just had to settle for POY - which apparently was not conferred in his earlier years).  Since I didn't realize at the time that I was watching "FUTURE NFL MVP KEN ANDERSON" , I really am not sure whether he was all that unusually excellent as a college player (IWU beat Augie both his freshman and senior years).  Anyone have a better memory, or has found better stats?

I never saw Anderson play at Augie, but here are his, by today's standards, modest career totals:

Year    Att.  Cmp.  Pct.  Yds.  (W-L)
1967    155    77  49.7  1143   (4-5)
1968    239   136  56.9  2117   (6-3)
1969    199    98  49.2  1432   (7-2)
1970    234   113  48.3  1439   (3-6)
-----------------------------
Career  827   424  51.3  6131  (20-16)

Sorry, I don't have interception and TD totals. Obviously Paul Brown must've known a little about football to take Anderson in the third round.

Obviously. Seriously, though, Paul Brown introduced the facemask, the helmet radio, the taxi squad, and the messenger guard to the game of football, and he popularized the concept of having assistant coaches specialize in one positional area (his mentor Jock Sutherland of the University of Pittsburgh is actually the coach who came up with that idea). Brown is also the only coach to lead his team to an NFL title in its first season in the league, the only coach to lead his team to six consecutive NFL championship games, and the only coach to have a franchise nicknamed after him and another franchise's stadium named after him. In terms of important figures in pro football history, Brown is probably second only to George Halas.

He was the sixth QB taken in the 1971 draft, behind Jim Plunkett, Archie Manning, Dan Pastorini, Lynn Dickey and Leo Hart (?).

Ken Anderson's place in pro football history is bigger than the fact that he won the 1981 NFL MVP award. He is also the archetype of the West Coast Offense quarterback, since he was the first QB to successfully run assistant coach Bill Walsh's new horizontal-passing scheme during the early years of the Bengals.

(Football theorists to this day have an ongoing feud as to whether the West Coast Offense was something Walsh invented while he was Brown's assistant at Cincinnati, or whether he simply modified the offense that Brown himself had utilized as the head coach of the Cleveland Browns in the '50s when he had the great Otto Graham as his quarterback. Most people tend to favor Walsh in this argument.)

[SaintsFAN]

I have another question for you penny analysts in the room:

What, if anything,  does it me that Wheaton turned it over 4x vs Trine and won 14-0 and Franklin turned it over 5x v Trine and lost 30-27?

I believe this means Trine's 2008 defense was awfully good at forcing turnovers. 


I also believe Saturday is going to be a D3 version of an "Instant Classic".  Which unsung hero will step up for the winning team? 

Is there anything better than the Division III Playoffs?  The folks in Division 1 sure are missing out...

[SaintsFAN]

Mugsy,

Spot on with your response to Grizzbacker.  Thankfully, Franklin's offense has been the story of this run and the sometimes curt and overzealous posting of a few of the "johnny-come-lately" Grizzly contributors to the CCIW and OAC thread.  This is actually pretty tame compared with what transpired on the OAC board immediately following Franklin's win over Otterbein. 

I guess Pat Coleman sees these posters coming out of nowhere (literally) annually when an underdog team makes a run in the tournament. 

Here's to an injury-free game that is decided on the field.

[GRIZ_BACKER]

Mugsy,

Spot on with your response to Grizzbacker.  Thankfully, Franklin's offense has been the story of this run and the sometimes curt and overzealous posting of a few of the "johnny-come-lately" Grizzly contributors to the CCIW and OAC thread.  This is actually pretty tame compared with what transpired on the OAC board immediately following Franklin's win over Otterbein. 

I guess Pat Coleman sees these posters coming out of nowhere (literally) annually when an underdog team makes a run in the tournament. 

Here's to an injury-free game that is decided on the field.

relax folks  i forgot one of the smiley faces i guess