FB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[Pat Coleman]

I know that there were well-meaning intentions from outsiders over the years whenever they cheerfully posted something along the lines of, "I think that this is the season that North Park is going to win a CCIW game!" The problems with that, however, were: a) there was never any indication that the person really knew what he or she was talking about at all, in the sense that there was never any sort of football-based evidence presented to back up his or her hypothesis;

Hey uhm ... ok.

[Pat Coleman]

I have no dog in this fight but I would say that St Thomas lost at home to an unranked team in St Johns and stayed in the top 10. That seems a lot more inconsistent to me than anything else I have seen, but I am fine with it.

Two factors:

1. I think most of the voters get the SJU/UST rivalry and know that odd things can happen. In 2003, for example, St. Thomas finished 3-7 and St. John's needed a FG with :08 left to win that game. St. John's went on to beat somebody purple some weeks later and win some trophy.
http://www.d3football.com/seasons/2003/contrib/20130713ndozy2

2. Next below UST is Hobart. St. Thomas beat them 47-7 last year and although this is a new year, that's a lot of ground to make up to believe that Hobart is now better than St. Thomas.

[USee]

I have no dog in this fight but I would say that St Thomas lost at home to an unranked team in St Johns and stayed in the top 10. That seems a lot more inconsistent to me than anything else I have seen, but I am fine with it.

Two factors:

1. I think most of the voters get the SJU/UST rivalry and know that odd things can happen. In 2003, for example, St. Thomas finished 3-7 and St. John's needed a FG with :08 left to win that game. St. John's went on to beat somebody purple some weeks later and win some trophy.
http://www.d3football.com/seasons/2003/contrib/20130713ndozy2

2. Next below UST is Hobart. St. Thomas beat them 47-7 last year and although this is a new year, that's a lot of ground to make up to believe that Hobart is now better than St. Thomas.

so 2003 informs 2013's ballot? Somebody better tell Wally Wabash that past results matter, he may be at the cardiologist right now! Wheaton beat NCC @NCC last year by 2 TD's, doesn't seem to matter in their positioning. I don't buy it. I get it, but St Thomas is not a top 10 team if they are losing to St Johns at home in my book, 2003 be darned!

[hazzben]

All Pat is saying is that Johnnie-Tommie is a massive rivalry game. Traditionally the teams play each other incredibly tight, regardless of record. Informed D3football.com voters knew this. 2003 is a long time ago, but it illustrates how hyped a decided underdog tends to play in it. That and O'Connell, the starting UST QB, was playing with mono or some sickness (also missed this week against Carleton).

UST also dominated their other opponents this year. You could certainly use the SJU loss to drop UST. But this is a team that played in the Stagg Bowl last year and returned basically their entire team (plus got multiple DI/II transfers and got a ton of guys back who were injured early last year). I'm guessing most voters looked at UST and looked at everyone behind them and said, I'd still pick UST to beat those guys. I still don't feel like Bethel is or should be the favorite against UST in two weeks, even if they follow up their win over Augsburg with a win on the road against a good Concordia Moorhead.

You can definitely take issue with UST in the top 10. But to be honest, outside of Mount, Linfield and UMHB, I think you can pick at the resume of every team in the Top 10 if you look hard enough. None really have a signature win yet. It will all start to sort itself out in the weeks to come since this year there will still be 4 games played between current Top 10 teams.

[Pat Coleman]

I have no dog in this fight but I would say that St Thomas lost at home to an unranked team in St Johns and stayed in the top 10. That seems a lot more inconsistent to me than anything else I have seen, but I am fine with it.

Two factors:

1. I think most of the voters get the SJU/UST rivalry and know that odd things can happen. In 2003, for example, St. Thomas finished 3-7 and St. John's needed a FG with :08 left to win that game. St. John's went on to beat somebody purple some weeks later and win some trophy.
http://www.d3football.com/seasons/2003/contrib/20130713ndozy2

2. Next below UST is Hobart. St. Thomas beat them 47-7 last year and although this is a new year, that's a lot of ground to make up to believe that Hobart is now better than St. Thomas.

so 2003 informs 2013's ballot? Somebody better tell Wally Wabash that past results matter, he may be at the cardiologist right now! Wheaton beat NCC @NCC last year by 2 TD's, doesn't seem to matter in their positioning. I don't buy it. I get it, but St Thomas is not a top 10 team if they are losing to St Johns at home in my book, 2003 be darned!

Oh boy. Take a deep breath and relax. My point being crazy **** happens in rivalry games -- if St. John's misses that field goal at the gun, are they suddenly not a national title contender? Because that's what happened a few weeks ago for St. Thomas.

[Pat Coleman]

I'm guessing most voters looked at UST and looked at everyone behind them and said, I'd still pick UST to beat those guys.

And that's exactly how I want people filling out their ballot, not automatically dropping a 1-loss team behind a bunch of unbeatens just because of winning percentage. If I want that, I'll go to the NCAA committee.

[USee]

my view has nothing to do with winning percentage, I agree 100% with you. I am simply saying I have watched St Thomas and I don't think they deserve a free pass for losing to an unranked, average St Johns team despite the heritage of either program. As far as them making it to the Stagg, all that got them was the "Mt Union Award" which Wheaton has 6 of. Color me unimpressed. I would have put them around 10-11 after losing. I don't have a big issue at all with any of this but I don't buy for a second that "things happen in rivalry games" excuse. Every league has those. As I said, Wheaton has 29 seniors back from a team that handled NCC at their place and they are ranked 10 spots apart. Makes no sense. Now, I don't have a ballot and I don't have to pick "who would you put there instead" so I understand the dilemma. But do I think there is a big separation between St Thomas, Franklin, Wabash, Wheaton, JCU, Heidi? No, I dont'. I would have put most of those teams ahead of St Thomas after losing to St Johns.

All that is just this outsiders opinion who has no ballot and doesn't have to contemplate my own place in the universe on a weekly basis, so take it with a grain of salt.

[Pat Coleman]

my view has nothing to do with winning percentage, I agree 100% with you. I am simply saying I have watched St Thomas and I don't think they deserve a free pass for losing to an unranked, average St Johns team despite the heritage of either program. As far as them making it to the Stagg, all that got them was the "Mt Union Award" which Wheaton has 6 of. Color me unimpressed. I would have put them around 10-11 after losing. I don't have a big issue at all with any of this but I don't buy for a second that "things happen in rivalry games" excuse. Every league has those. As I said, Wheaton has 29 seniors back from a team that handled NCC at their place and they are ranked 10 spots apart. Makes no sense. Now, I don't have a ballot and I don't have to pick "who would you put there instead" so I understand the dilemma. But do I think there is a big separation between St Thomas, Franklin, Wabash, Wheaton, JCU, Heidi? No, I dont'. I would have put most of those teams ahead of St Thomas after losing to St Johns.

All that is just this outsiders opinion who has no ballot and doesn't have to contemplate my own place in the universe on a weekly basis, so take it with a grain of salt.

Yeah. I just don't think 10 teams would beat St. Thomas, but there are more games to be played and there will be more data to consider.

Notice Hobart wasn't on your list.

[USee]

WhoBart? Call it east coast bias but most of those teams are "prove it to me players". I need to see some wins against good teams not in the east. Their win over Witt in the playoffs last year turned my head so they deserve some consideration. Do I think IWU, Wheaton or Wabash would handle Hobart? Yes I do. But I get to think that and no one has to care!

[Bombers798891]

my view has nothing to do with winning percentage, I agree 100% with you. I am simply saying I have watched St Thomas and I don't think they deserve a free pass for losing to an unranked, average St Johns team despite the heritage of either program.

St. Thomas went from 600 points to 422 in the polls after the loss. In what way is losing 178 points in the polls a "free pass"? 

[79jaybird]

Looking at the EC/Augie matchup.  In year's past Augie's ball control, put you to sleep rushing attack gobbled up all the TOP and let to Augie W's over Elmhurst.  That dominant offense hasn't been the case the last few years.  Elmhurst has been having trouble getting consistent offense this year. Therefore, IMO I think 3rd down conversions really becomes a big factor for the Jays in RI.  I think this is a winnable game for Elmhurst if they can execute and be consistent. 

[hazzben]

my view has nothing to do with winning percentage, I agree 100% with you. I am simply saying I have watched St Thomas and I don't think they deserve a free pass for losing to an unranked, average St Johns team despite the heritage of either program. As far as them making it to the Stagg, all that got them was the "Mt Union Award" which Wheaton has 6 of. Color me unimpressed. I would have put them around 10-11 after losing...But do I think there is a big separation between St Thomas, Franklin, Wabash, Wheaton, JCU, Heidi? No, I dont'. I would have put most of those teams ahead of St Thomas after losing to St Johns.

There's a big difference between UST and Wheaton...only one faced Mount in the Stagg Bowl. UST beat the #4, #8, #9, #12 & #18 teams by an average of 22 points en route to that loss to #1 Mount. I don't dispute UMHB being #2 at the end last year. But who would you realistically say UST loses to after that? Better yet, what's your reasoning for any team behind them being above them?

1   Mount Union (25)   
2   Mary Hardin-Baylor   
3   St. Thomas   
4   UW-Oshkosh - lost to UST
5   Linfield   - Lost to UWO at home
6   Wesley   - Lost twice to UMHB, who Mount beat...the only team you can even begin to make an argument UST may have lost to
7   North Central (Ill.)   - 3 loss team that lost big to Linfield
8   Elmhurst    - lost to UST
9   Hobart   - lost to UST
10   Widener   - lost to Mount 72-17
11   Salisbury   - 3 loss team
12   Bethel   - Lost to UST
13   UW-Platteville   - 2 loss team that didn't make the field
14   Wittenberg   - crushed by the Hobart team UST crushed

Now, for this year, you could certainly have put the teams listed ahead of UST. And they may actually be better. For what it's worth, I don't think any of them beat UST. But then again, you and I don't get a vote! Bottom line, it's not absurd for voters to think UST would beat the teams listed below them. And like Pat said, I'd hope voters do think things through beyond a teams win percentage. You obviously do as well, since you still like Franklin 

I'm going to go take a shower now...all this apologetic on behalf of U$T has me feeling unclean 

[USee]

my view has nothing to do with winning percentage, I agree 100% with you. I am simply saying I have watched St Thomas and I don't think they deserve a free pass for losing to an unranked, average St Johns team despite the heritage of either program.

St. Thomas went from 600 points to 422 in the polls after the loss. In what way is losing 178 points in the polls a "free pass"?

Bombers,

In the following way:

in 2012:
week 1 NCC loses and moves from #6-#13 (loses 263 points)
Week 4 Wabash loses and moves from #7-17 (loses 261 pts)
Week 9 Salisbury loses and moves from #7-#16 (Loses 235 pts)

In 2011:
Week 1 NCC loses and goes from #4-#15 (loses 284 pts)
Week 2 Wesley loses and goes from #3-#15 (loses 300 pts)
Week 4 ONU loses and goes from #9-#24 (loses 253 pts)

In 2010:
Week 2 Linfield loses and goes from #4-#16 (loses 290 pts)

If you take the average of these precedents (there are plenty of other examples) and take 269 pts from St Thomas they would be ranked somewhere in the #13-#14 area after their loss. That's obviously not how its done and other factors are involved, but doesn't seem equitible and the precedents seem pretty clear. I understand who they might be able to beat but they lost to an UNRANKED TEAM. Sorry guys but St Johns isn't what they once were rivalry or not. I am not buying it.

[ExTartanPlayer]

my view has nothing to do with winning percentage, I agree 100% with you. I am simply saying I have watched St Thomas and I don't think they deserve a free pass for losing to an unranked, average St Johns team despite the heritage of either program. As far as them making it to the Stagg, all that got them was the "Mt Union Award" which Wheaton has 6 of. Color me unimpressed. I would have put them around 10-11 after losing...But do I think there is a big separation between St Thomas, Franklin, Wabash, Wheaton, JCU, Heidi? No, I dont'. I would have put most of those teams ahead of St Thomas after losing to St Johns.

There's a big difference between UST and Wheaton...only one faced Mount in the Stagg Bowl. UST beat the #4, #8, #9, #12 & #18 teams by an average of 22 points en route to that loss to #1 Mount. I don't dispute UMHB being #2 at the end last year. But who would you realistically say UST loses to after that? Better yet, what's your reasoning for any team behind them being above them?

1   Mount Union (25)   
2   Mary Hardin-Baylor   
3   St. Thomas   
4   UW-Oshkosh - lost to UST
5   Linfield   - Lost to UWO at home
6   Wesley   - Lost twice to UMHB, who Mount beat...the only team you can even begin to make an argument UST may have lost to
7   North Central (Ill.)   - 3 loss team that lost big to Linfield
8   Elmhurst    - lost to UST
9   Hobart   - lost to UST
10   Widener   - lost to Mount 72-17
11   Salisbury   - 3 loss team
12   Bethel   - Lost to UST
13   UW-Platteville   - 2 loss team that didn't make the field
14   Wittenberg   - crushed by the Hobart team UST crushed

Now, for this year, you could certainly have put the teams listed ahead of UST. And they may actually be better. For what it's worth, I don't think any of them beat UST. But then again, you and I don't get a vote! Bottom line, it's not absurd for voters to think UST would beat the teams listed below them. And like Pat said, I'd hope voters do think things through beyond a teams win percentage. You obviously do as well, since you still like Franklin 

I'm going to go take a shower now...all this apologetic on behalf of U$T has me feeling unclean 

I think Usee's last post kind of mixes two thoughts.  I don't think he means he would have ranked UST 10-11 after losing the Stagg last year, I think he means he would have put UST 10-11 after their loss to St. John's.

I agree that, save Mount, UMHB is the only team who had a case to be ranked above UST in last year's final poll.

I am a big results-driven person and generally penalize teams that have lost to teams clearly an echelon lower in the rankings.  I don't think Franklin should drop because of a three-point loss at #1 team in the nation; I do think that UST should drop a few spots with a loss to an unranked team, even if it is a huge rivalry game, and it's hard to say exactly how far that extends.  While I think they probably should have dropped a bit further, I do like hazzben's explanation that they looked at the teams ranked immediately below them and thought "I'd still pick UST to beat those guys" - although we're all free to pick who else we think might beat UST.  It'll sort out in a few weeks, Usee.  Pour yourself a drink and relax.

[iwu70]

Seems the top three teams in the CCIW are all building, improving, preparing for the key clashes down the road for the CCIW crown, and post-season berths.  All three -- NCC, WC and IWU, -- have had their ups and downs so far, with it seems WC playing the best overall so far.  For IWU, IMHO, key will be consistent strong defensive play which I think will be there, even better than in recent years.  This D unit is seasoned and very resilient, defends the run well, and keeps everything in front of them.  Very disciplined unit.  On O, seems IWU is more balanced this year with Devonte Jones putting up some very impressive performances, stats, esp. with his receiving and return yardage, so one of the top players in D3 in all-purpose yardage.  With the running balance, also if Stinde can continue to contribute in key games,key places, then Gallik can be more effective.  Key there is good yardage, performances through the air, balance of the many strong IWU receivers, all of them staying healthy.  Garvey, Musselman, Chechin make up a very strong contingent, and Gallik should have a banner year.  IWU has depth at so many positions.   IMHO, Titan O needs some additional variety -- screens, mis-direction plays, reverses with WR, some trap style runs, draw plays, some check-down passes to RBs, including the fullback.  If IWU limits its TOs, plays its normally strong D, they have a real run at the crown this year.  NCC and WC will be very tough opponents, no doubt -- some great games featuring these three all coming up in the latter half of the CCIW season.  Slight advantage to IWU as it has both NCC and WC at home.  I expect all three teams to continue to improve, sort out their glitches and problems, and have really good momentum going into these key games.  Looking forward to seeing them -- both WC and NCC -- in person at Tucci @Wilder Field.  GO TITANS!!!   Looks like we'll be treated to several "showdown" games this season.

Homecoming first this weekend vs. the CCIW leading, 1st place North Park Streak-enders. Congrats again to NP on their win last weekend vs. Carthage.  Historic, for sure.  Welcome to Homecoming North Parkers.  Should be a more competitive game than in recent blow-out years.  Hope the Titans take things one game at a time and give us a big big victory for Homecoming.  I'm sure there will be a big, loud crowd, as always, for Homecoming festivities in Bloomington.

One game at a time.

IWU70