FB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[sac]

There's only six D2 and two NAIA schools in the mitten that have football teams, which is not exactly a "multitude" -- and, remember, the number of scholies that those eight schools can hand out is much smaller than it is for D1 schools. While those eight schools might have some effect upon the pool of D3-potential football players in Michigan, I don't think it's the same thing as a school at the same athletic level as the WIAC (Carthage) having to recruit against those WIAC schools in l'etat de fromage. Besides, you're forgetting the other half of the equation vis-a-vis Carthage's recruiting strategy, which is that the Chicagoland suburbs contain more people than the entire state of Wisconsin, let alone the southeastern corner of the state where Carthage has always been most likely to draw any recruiting interest.

There are 8 D2's....
Michigan Tech
Northern Michigan
Ferris State
Grand Valley State
Northwood
Saginaw Valley State
Wayne State
Hillsdale


D2 schools can hand out 36 full or partial scholarships.  Most of the D2 schools in Michigan have rosters approaching or over 100 players, many would make fine D3 athletes.  Along with the scholarship issue,  6 of those 8 D2's are state funded schools with substantially lower tuition vs D3, likely on par with the WIAC's.

I've heard more than a few people belly ache about D2's affect on MIAA football recruiting.

sac, while I agree with your basic points, Greg is correct.  'The mitten' refers to the lower peninsula; Michigan Tech and Northern Michigan are in 'the wedge'.

About 1/2 of their rosters are comprised of 'mitten' kids.

[79jaybird]

Elmhurst better be ready on Saturday vs. NPU.  NPU has the momentum brewing on their side and been playing very well. Elmhurst has had their struggles this year.  I look for a pretty close game.   I too, thought Elmhurst would be a little better (though not 7 wins) but closer to 500.  I didn't think there would be such a big dropoff/plateau this year.  Like L-Ghost alludes to, there is still time this season to work on building some momentum which could carry over into next year. 

[formerd3db]

Greg, you do realize, of course, that your complaint about my former classmate's 8-paragraph posts (don't recall any than ran more than 4 or 5, but oh well) was imbedded in (including quoted material) about a 20-25 paragraph post!

It was more of a complaint about content than about length. After all, I'm hardly one to be able to complain about the length of anybody else's posts. It's just as easy to scroll past an eight-paragraph post about IWU's Department of Widgets being moved to Whatever Hall than it is to scroll past a two-paragraph post about the same.

Do I attend Carthage and pay $44,350 a year for tuition, a double room, and a 13 meal a week plan, or do I attend Whitewater for $15,130 for tuition, a double room, and a 14 meal a week plan? Aren't some Carthage recruits going to UWW (or another UW school with similar costs)?   

In reference to Greg Sager's last entry above.

And, as I said, that hasn't been that much of a problem for Carthage in the past, because the school matched Illinois's in-state aid and allowed Carthage coaches to concentrate upon recruiting suburban Chicagolanders.

Hey Gregory:

I totally understand where you are coming from i.e. just reporting what you've heard.  It would be interesting to hear from someone there who would know more of the "inside details".  Yet, at the same time, I can't imagine their problem is any different than some of the other DIII schools that have faced this such as our Olivet and Kalamazoo in the MIAA in regards to some of the difficulties in recruiting athletes due to the financial aid requirements/availability and other involved policies.  Hopefully, they can get whatever needs to be rectified worked out.

It is a little different for Carthage than it is for Olivet or Kalamazoo, though. If Olivet or Kalamazoo drew most of their student-athletes from northern Indiana because Michigan had a D3-based system of University of Michigan branches, or because Indiana had a vast metropolis right across the border (picturing metro South Bend/Mishawaka/Elkhart with eight million people makes me chuckle ), then the analogy would be a bit more airtight.

That is true Gregory to an extent.  However, on the other hand, there is indeed somewhat of analogy in regards to the multitude of DII and NAIA scholarship football schools in our region with respect to the D3-based system of the U of Wisconsin that you are alluding to.  It may not be quite the same amount of effect, yet it is a factor and somewhat analogous to the situation.

There's only six D2 and two NAIA schools in the mitten that have football teams, which is not exactly a "multitude" -- and, remember, the number of scholies that those eight schools can hand out is much smaller than it is for D1 schools. While those eight schools might have some effect upon the pool of D3-potential football players in Michigan, I don't think it's the same thing as a school at the same athletic level as the WIAC (Carthage) having to recruit against those WIAC schools in l'etat de fromage. Besides, you're forgetting the other half of the equation vis-a-vis Carthage's recruiting strategy, which is that the Chicagoland suburbs contain more people than the entire state of Wisconsin, let alone the southeastern corner of the state where Carthage has always been most likely to draw any recruiting interest.

Actually, there are 8 DII schools as sac pointed out, plus the two NAIA schools; the two DII's in the upper peninsula do a lot of successful recruiting in the "mitt".  But, you are missing my point.  Those DII and NAIA schools do have a big effect on the recruiting of the DIII schools and that really is no different than the Wis system DIII schools and all the other DIII's that Carthage has to compete against (even though those Wis system DIII's don't offer scholies).  Olivet is in the middle of our state and while some of the factors involved in attempting to get student-athletes there might be different in specifics than Carthage, overall the effect is really no different.  In addition, the DII schools do have a big effect on recruiting for the DIII schools, more than you think.  The DII schools split their scholarships so that almost everyone on the team has a "1/2 ride" or a least a third and when you have tuition's like Grand Valley's that are less than $18,000 (and the others schools less), getting about $9,000 makes a ton of difference to families if their kid is good enough to play at that level-and many are who would have normally gone to one of the DIII schools in years back.  Moreover, I don't believe that Carthage's education is any less than some of the other DIII schools (and no offense to some of the DII schools, but their degrees do not compare to a Hope, Kalamazoo, Wheaton or even NPU degree).  So there are a lot of factors that go into this and I disagree with you to some degree-and the argument that "apples to oranges" comparison doesn't apply here because of those many varied factors.  Every school goes through this type of phase as we all know and while those aspects are quite different for NPU as you have discussed and explained extensively and eloquently in the past, the other factors for these various schools all intertwine. Alma College is another example that comes to mind right now in comparing this overall situation to Carthage - Alma is having a very tough time in their men's sports programs.

You mention that Carthage concentrates on the Chicagoland area, which makes sense, but that is no different than the MIAA schools having to compete in the same region for the same players and again against the DII schools.  It would seem to me that Carthage would be able to pull more from the big city-again different than your NPU trying to get kids to come into the city as you have previously explained.  I can see where Carthage would have difficulty pulling in kids from other portions of the state in having to compete against the other outlying DIII schools, but again, that is no different that our Michigan schools (or for that matter the Ohio DIII schools) all having to compete in the same region for recruits.  I think most will agree that many of these schools, no matter where they are, tend to have rosters that are pretty much lined with players from their immediate region, although schools like Alma, which is "out there" end up having to draw from farther away regions, unlike Carthage.

The summary is that there a many factors involved (some of that includes administrations, of which has not really been significantly factored into the discussion here, although certainly is relevant in some situations) and while I obviously can't say for sure, I can't imagine that Carthage will stay in the current situation it is facing.  Anyway, this has been an interesting discussion for debate, but I won't "badh" anymore either (can I insert your infamous photo here from a few posting pages back? )  Thanks all for the comments/opinions and information. 

[ExTartanPlayer]

Moreover, I don't believe that Carthage's education is any less than some of the other DIII schools (and no offense to some of the DII schools, but their degrees do not compare to a Hope, Kalamazoo, Wheaton or even NPU degree).

I'm cherry-picking one point here, but it's a valuable one.  I can't speak to Wisconsin or Michigan, but I'll use my home state of Pennsylvania.

PA has a very substantial Division II and Division III presence, but there is a big dichotomy between the schools themselves.  There are 16 Division II football schools, all in the PSAC (Pennsylvania State Athletic Conference).  The 20+ Division III schools (I counted once, don't feel like doing it again, but I know it's over 20) are all private schools.  I am not a private-school snob; I have a cousin on the swim team at one of the PSAC schools who is dating a PSAC football player and both are very bright kids...but it is a reality that many of the Division III schools in PA offer an education and degree that is different from what the Division II schools can offer.  I attended one of the PSAC games this season and it was not significantly different from a Division III game featuring two good teams.  The lines were probably somewhat bigger than what you'd see in most Division III games, and maybe the kids were a little faster, but I would expect that most "pretty good" Division III teams could have played a fairly even game with each team on the field that day (admittedly, neither of these teams was a top-25 Division II team, although the PSAC does have three ranked teams).

My broad conclusion is that for the most part, the deciding factor for PA kids is probably going to be whether they are a better fit at a private school or a state school.  There's a pretty significant "overlap" in terms of football ability; D2 is clearly a bit better but not SO much that D3 kids couldn't play on the PSAC teams and vice versa, and no one goes to a PSAC school because it's more likely to get you to the NFL.  If I had different academic interests (or greater financial need), I might well have gone to a PSAC school.  I guess what I'm trying to say is that many kids who would make fine Division III players end up on Division 2 rosters in Pennsylvania, but I don't think the D2 and D3 schools are really recruiting "against" one another that much.

[Augie6]

Game story in the QC Times.

Augustana head coach Rob Cushman said he warned his players in advance that they couldn't take Saturday's game lightly.

"I tried to tell our guys that's not the old North Park," Cushman said. "I'm not sure I got through to them."

What's funny about this is that the Augie of today is taking anyone lightly!   

I was actually thinking about this after the result scrolled in Saturday night.  At the risk of sounding pejorative toward NPU, which is not how I mean this, what does it say about the current state of affairs in Rock Island that (1) they've achieved what would have to be considered a new bottom in an era that has seen a lot of lows, and (2) the program is so moribund that there are crickets on this forum emanating from the Quad Cities about this result and what it means for the current state of affairs.

I get that this message board is not an analog for strength of a program's support, and that there tend to be more posters for programs on their front foot than on their back foot, but imagine Mount Union or Whitewater  having no regular posters on this forum.  Cuz Augie was the MUU/UWW of its heyday, and it's been a while since we've had a regular poster wearing that shade of Blue and Gold.

Suffice it to say, this is not your father's Augustana football program.

I still follow the boards and the DIII scores, but haven't posted much the past couple of seasons, because, frankly, it's hard for me to want to talk about the program when the current administration at Augie doesn't seem to care much if it's successful or not.  Like a lot of alums from Augie's glory days in the 80's, it's hard to see what has become of the program.  The reasons are many (which were discussed a couple of seasons ago when the current staff came on board and the debacle of a season that followed), so I don't really want to rehash all of that.  Suffice it to say, that, although we still care about Augie and the times we had at the school, most football alum don't feel much of connection to the program and are extremely disappointed to see where it's at.  After years being behind most of the CCIW schools in terms of facilities, something was finally done to address that with the opening of the new stadium this year.  Maybe that will help with recruiting, but that's doubtful when you can't put a winning program on the field.  More than likely, Augie will end this season at 5-5 (although after last week, a win against Carthage this weekend is anything but a sure thing).  That will put the record of the Cushman era at Augustana at 12-18. You have to go back to the 1956-58 seasons to find a worse three year stretch than the past 3 seasons (7-17 record under V. Lundeen).  Hard to get good players and to keep anyone interested in the program with those results.  My guess is the board will remain pretty quiet from an Augie perspective until something significant changes with the program.

[Gregory Sager]

Actually, there are 8 DII schools as sac pointed out, plus the two NAIA schools; the two DII's in the upper peninsula do a lot of successful recruiting in the "mitt".

I said that there were six D2 football schools in the mitten, and that's all that I said. I was correct. There are not eight; there are six -- regardless of whether or not Michigan Tech and Northern Michigan recruit in the mitten.

But, you are missing my point.  Those DII and NAIA schools do have a big effect on the recruiting of the DIII schools and that really is no different than the Wis system DIII schools and all the other DIII's that Carthage has to compete against (even though those Wis system DIII's don't offer scholies).

No, I am not missing the point. I said that there were some similarities, but the analogy isn't nearly as close as you think it is. You keep evading the demographic aspect of this discussion. Michigan has 9.9 million people; Wisconsin has 5.7 million people. The pool of high school football players is therefore much larger in the Great Lakes State than it is in cheeseland. And, again, you've not addressed the salient point of Carthage's recruiting (both for student-athletes and for students in general), which is that the school is only eight miles across the border from one of the largest middle-class suburban enclaves in the entire country. There is no analogous situation with regard to the MIAA schools.

Olivet is in the middle of our state and while some of the factors involved in attempting to get student-athletes there might be different in specifics than Carthage, overall the effect is really no different.

I vehemently disagree. As I've already said a couple of times, Carthage has predicated much of its admissions policy upon the principle of matching Illlinois in-state aid for the many, many suburban Chicagoland students that it draws. Whether or not Carthage continues that policy, or is able to continue that policy, is the fulcrum upon which many things on that campus -- including athletics recruiting -- balances. Olivet, by my quick scan of sports rosters, is a school whose athletes are almost all Michiganders. So the analogy flies out the window.

In addition, the DII schools do have a big effect on recruiting for the DIII schools, more than you think.  The DII schools split their scholarships so that almost everyone on the team has a "1/2 ride" or a least a third and when you have tuition's like Grand Valley's that are less than $18,000 (and the others schools less), getting about $9,000 makes a ton of difference to families if their kid is good enough to play at that level-and many are who would have normally gone to one of the DIII schools in years back.

Look, I'm not doubting yours and sac's assertion that the D2 teams have a negative impact upon MIAA football recruiting. I've said that from the beginning. But, again, the demographics are completely different between their situation and Carthage's.

Moreover, I don't believe that Carthage's education is any less than some of the other DIII schools (and no offense to some of the DII schools, but their degrees do not compare to a Hope, Kalamazoo, Wheaton or even NPU degree).

I don't see the relevance here.

So there are a lot of factors that go into this and I disagree with you to some degree-and the argument that "apples to oranges" comparison doesn't apply here because of those many varied factors.

Actually, it's the varied factors that do make these comparisons apples and oranges. Carthage is in a unique position, a position in part forced upon it by geography and demographics. As an MIAAer, you of all people should get how important those two aspects can be, because Michigan's peninsular geography has played havoc with the ability of MIAA schools to schedule in-region games in the past in various sports.

Every school goes through this type of phase as we all know and while those aspects are quite different for NPU as you have discussed and explained extensively and eloquently in the past, the other factors for these various schools all intertwine. Alma College is another example that comes to mind right now in comparing this overall situation to Carthage - Alma is having a very tough time in their men's sports programs.

As far as I can tell, Alma's had a tough time in men's sports for generations now. Carthage, while not an across-the-board power in the same way that, say, Augustana has always been in the CCIW, has done more than respectably for itself in this league in recent years. Carthage is one of the four CCIW schools that have won league titles in each of the big three sports in this millennium, and the Red Men have also won a CCIW soccer title (very hard to do in this league if you're not Wheaton or NPU). The Lady Reds have fared well on their side of the ledger as well.

You mention that Carthage concentrates on the Chicagoland area, which makes sense, but that is no different than the MIAA schools having to compete in the same region for the same players and again against the DII schools.

No, it is different. Carthage doesn't compete with WIAC schools for suburban Chicagoland student-athletes, since the WIAC by and large does not recruit extensively on this side of the cheddar curtain (although that may be starting to change). Carthage competes against fellow CCIW schools for suburban Chicagolanders. It's a completely different dynamic, depending upon which side of the border you're doing your recruiting.

It would seem to me that Carthage would be able to pull more from the big city-again different than your NPU trying to get kids to come into the city as you have previously explained.

For football? Are you kidding? As I've said here numerous times, high school football in Chicago is moribund. Aside from a few Catholic League programs such as DeLaSalle, St. Rita, and Mount Carmel, there's really no programs here in the city that a CCIW program can tap into for players on a regular basis. The level of competition, the basic football skills level, the academic situation, and the economic situations of the typical Chicago high school football player present too many barriers for the vast majority of them to overcome in terms of being CCIW material. It breaks my heart to say that, because those kids deserve so much better. But it's nevertheless true.

I can see where Carthage would have difficulty pulling in kids from other portions of the state in having to compete against the other outlying DIII schools, but again, that is no different that our Michigan schools (or for that matter the Ohio DIII schools) all having to compete in the same region for recruits.

Carthage has never really had any problem recruiting suburban Chicagolanders. Tim Rucks always had the largest roster in the CCIW every year when summer camp began up at Art Keller Field in Kenosha. Qualitywise, the Red Men have certainly not been dominant in terms of the players that they've brought in from the Glenbard Easts and the Naperville Norths and the Maine Souths and the Schaumburgs, but they've certainly been competitive -- until this year, that is. Coming into the 2013 campaign, Carthage's CCIW football record over the past decade was 31-39. That's not great, but that's not symptomatic of a school that "would have difficulty pulling in kids" by any means.

I think most will agree that many of these schools, no matter where they are, tend to have rosters that are pretty much lined with players from their immediate region, although schools like Alma, which is "out there" end up having to draw from farther away regions, unlike Carthage.

The summary is that there a many factors involved (some of that includes administrations, of which has not really been significantly factored into the discussion here, although certainly is relevant in some situations) and while I obviously can't say for sure, I can't imagine that Carthage will stay in the current situation it is facing.  Anyway, this has been an interesting discussion for debate, but I won't "badh" anymore either (can I insert your infamous photo here from a few posting pages back? )  Thanks all for the comments/opinions and information.

It's an interesting conversation. I think that you and sac are under the impression that I've been pooh-poohing the difficulties that MIAA schools have in assembling football teams. That's not the case. What I'm saying is that Carthage is very definitely a horse of a different color, due to geography and demographics and the presence of the WIAC. There just isn't that much of a similarity there between Carthage and the MIAA schools in terms of their recruiting situations.

[iwu70]

Any predictions on IWU vs. NCC this weekend? 

I have the line at 1 TD+ for NCC over my Titans.  If that holds I'd say something like NCC 34, Titans 21.

But, if very few Titan TOs, a great D effort by IWU and the help of home field, I'll say IWU 28, NCC 24. 

Hard to tell which way it will go . . .

GO TITANS!!! -- the CCIW crown and the post-season berth clearly on the line this Satuday @ Tucci Stadium @ Wilder Field.  (sorry, AndOne).  You know where I mean.

IWU70

P.S.  I think NP wins again this weekend.  ms

[Mr. Ypsi]

While I'm not going to go so far as to predict a Titan win, I think there is just enough of a probability of such that my heart is demanding that I pick them in both the CCIW and MIAA Pick 'ems.  (I'm so hopelessly out of contention in the CCIW Pick 'ems that it doesn't much matter, but am one point out of first in the MIAA, so it is a gutsy call.  *Pats self on back* )

As others have mentioned, IF the Titans avoid TOs, and IF Gallik and Jones (and/or Stinde) have the games they are capable of, the defense just might get the job done.

In Michigan, Go Blue (facing the Green at MSU).  In Illinois, Go Green.

[Mr. Ypsi]

Greg, one clarification (I think):  pretty sure formerd3db meant attracting students from the greater Chicago area, as opposed to NPU having to try to get suburban students into the city itself.  He's a pretty careful reader, so I assume he already was aware of the dearth of quality recruits from within the city (from your discussion of same).

[formerd3db]

Gregory:

I could further debate you on several points you mention.  You still mis-understand where I'm coming from on a couple of those aspects, although I certainly agree with you on others.  However, I won't waste any more time here on this because it really doesn't matter.  We'll just leave it that we disagree/have differing opinions on some of several of these aspects.

Mr. Ypsi:
Thank you for the clarification.  BTW, I'll join in with the others wishing your IWU the best the rest of the way.  It is obviously too early to even think of how the playoff structures will be set up, however, I'm just wondering if Hope and IWU might meet again if both end up winning the AQ of our respective conferences.  That would be a neat scenario, similar to when Alma met Wittenburg twice in the season, which was during one of my coaching years there.  It probably won't happened, but...

[Gregory Sager]

Greg, one clarification (I think):  pretty sure formerd3db meant attracting students from the greater Chicago area, as opposed to NPU having to try to get suburban students into the city itself.  He's a pretty careful reader, so I assume he already was aware of the dearth of quality recruits from within the city (from your discussion of same).

No, read it again, Chuck. He said:

It would seem to me that Carthage would be able to pull more from the big city-again different than your NPU trying to get kids to come into the city as you have previously explained.

I know that Naperville and Aurora are now pretty large communities in their own right, but when he says "big city" he's clearly talking about Chicago, not "the greater Chicago area" -- especially since he goes on in the subsequent phrase to refer to "the city" in the context of NPU trying to get kids to come to it.

[Gregory Sager]

Odd fact of the day: For the first time in the CCIW portion of the season, all four games this Saturday have the same start time. They'll be kicking off at 1 pm in Chicago, in Bloomington, in Decatur, and in Kenosha. I can see that we're going to have even more things to track online in the press box than usual.

[formerd3db]

Greg:
Wrong.  My wife is from Chicago but being an non-Chicagoland person, I have always considered the big city as being more than just Chicago and certainly some of those surrounding areas which are the greater Chicago area. Whether you define that different than me, I don't really care. I admit I poorly mis-stated that, didn't take time to proof-read my post, which I sometimes do and particularly when I get make them too long, so my apologies.  And BTW, Alma has not had problems in recruiting for decades as you mention, yes in the last one, but that certainly does not date back to the '90's or before, even when my brother was playing there.  I think I know a little more about that school than you do, just as you clearly do regarding your NPU over me.     

[Desertraider]

Greg:
Wrong.  My wife is from Chicago but being an non-Chicagoland person, I have always considered the big city as being more than just Chicago and certainly some of those surrounding areas which are the greater Chicago area. Whether you define that different than me, I don't really care. I admit I poorly mis-stated that, didn't take time to proof-read my post, which I sometimes do and particularly when I get make them too long, so my apologies.  And BTW, Alma has not had problems in recruiting for decades as you mention, yes in the last one, but that certainly does not date back to the '90's or before, even when my brother was playing there.  I think I know a little more about that school than you do, just as you clearly do regarding your NPU over me.   

I don't know why I am jumping in on this (probably because the OAC board is dead) but I lived in Naperville*. Everytime I asked one of my neighbors (since I was unfamiliar with the area) about where to find...whatever - the standard response was "well you might find it (here) but I know you'll find it in the City". To me that means the people in the suburbs of Chicago - don't consider themselves part of the City. Ergo - the "Big City" has to mean Chicago and not the Chicagoland area.

*However, I am no Chicagoland expert - I packed up everything and moved there and then 13 days later repacked and took a transfer outta there. I had enough.

[Gregory Sager]

I didn't say that Alma has had trouble recruiting for decades. I said that Alma's had a tough time in men's sports for generations now. The football program has been OK, but the Scots have been the league's doormat in basketball for quite a long time, and they've only won one MIAA baseball title over the past couple of decades. They have a couple of soccer titles from the late '90s, but that's it.