FB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[kiko]

Chuck, congrats on Grandpadom!  You'll have to change your handle to Mr. Grandpa Ypsi.  I'm not quite there yet, as my son is now 28 and still unattached, just finishing law school after a long long run of 10 years of higher education.  College debt + a good job offer = waiting on marriage and family.  So it goes . . . He hasn't become a Mormon, but he did become a Red Sox fan, being in Boston now for the last 6 or so years.  Not sure which is worse!  (actually I'm cheering for the Red Sox now, that my overage Yankees are clearly not up to the task this season.  Another great game last night.  Would be nice for Boston to celebrate on their sacred, home field).  Fenway will be rocking for sure.

I'm with several posters here about the IWU-NCC showdown Saturday, saying that IWU needs to win the TO battle.  And, IMHO, they have to get some pressure on Stanek and overall play the kind of D they've been playing.  In a close game, could come down to FG kicking where IWU does have an advantage.  Let's hope home field and a TO battle win keeps the game close.  The line at NCC by  one TD or one TD+ seems reasonable to me.  Hoping for a big big big home crowd, as last week's crowd for IWU-WC was very disappointing. 

IWU70

Is this even allowed?

[iwu70]

kiko, it's like cheering for North Central or Wheaton after my Titans are out of the national D3 dance.  I'm an American League guy, so I cheer for the Red Sox, even from here in Cardinal country.  (Actually, Bloomington is on that line where lots of folks cheer for the White Sox and Cubs, and many also look south and cheer for the Cardinals).  But, it's pretty clear that in the pubs and bars around here, you don't find too too many Yankee fans . . . or Red Sox fans either.   Gotta be brave to fess up to your loyalties -- especially now that we have "concealed carry."   

Looking forward to the IWU-NCC match-up this Saturday.  Must be at least one of the "games of the year."   NCC vs. WC the next week will also be a great game.

IWU70

[markerickson]

I think Olivet would have the most difficult time of any CCIW or MIAA school recruiting student athletes.  I once had to visit Olivet for work and stayed in Marshall at a BnB as Olivet, the town, did not have a hotel or motel.  Also, if my memory is correct, the town had only one restaurant.  The athletic facilities were abysmal.

[AndOne]

Greg:
Wrong.  My wife is from Chicago but being an non-Chicagoland person, I have always considered the big city as being more than just Chicago and certainly some of those surrounding areas which are the greater Chicago area. Whether you define that different than me, I don't really care. I admit I poorly mis-stated that, didn't take time to proof-read my post, which I sometimes do and particularly when I get make them too long, so my apologies.  And BTW, Alma has not had problems in recruiting for decades as you mention, yes in the last one, but that certainly does not date back to the '90's or before, even when my brother was playing there.  I think I know a little more about that school than you do, just as you clearly do regarding your NPU over me.   

I don't know why I am jumping in on this (probably because the OAC board is dead) but I lived in Naperville*. Everytime I asked one of my neighbors (since I was unfamiliar with the area) about where to find...whatever - the standard response was "well you might find it (here) but I know you'll find it in the City". To me that means the people in the suburbs of Chicago - don't consider themselves part of the City. Ergo - the "Big City" has to mean Chicago and not the Chicagoland area.

*However, I am no Chicagoland expert - I packed up everything and moved there and then 13 days later repacked and took a transfer outta there. I had enough.

desert---

If you were still in Naperville, its unlikely that you would receive that response today. Short of major theatrical productions, concerts, and pro sports events, just about anything that you used to have to venture into Chicago for can be found in Naperville. This is especially true when it comes to fine dining and nightlife. True "City People" or people who lived in the Naperville area some time ago and moved away would think they had been transported to another planet should they visit downtown Naperville on a Friday or Saturday night. Thousands of revelers fill the streets, hoping from one bar to another. This is especially true between 10 PM and 2 AM when everything finally closes. Beginning about midnight 6 police cars are lined up in the middle of Chicago Ave. Teams of police on both bicycles and foot rotate through downtown. Taxis are lined up for 2 or 3 blocks down the south side of Chicago Ave, often around the corner onto Main St. You would think you're on Rush St in Chicago.
The main problem with Naperville nowdays is that its populated by a lot of very wealthy people who think their poop doesn't stink and that they are better than everyone else. Those of us who are a rung or two lower on the ladder thus often refer to our privileged domicile as NaPPerville, rather than Naperville to denote those upper echelon types whose noses are often in the air. 
Many of these people are the ones who think a D3 school isn't good enough for their son or daughter because they don't have the alleged prestige of a large university, either academically or athletically.

[formerd3db]

I didn't say that Alma has had trouble recruiting for decades. I said that Alma's had a tough time in men's sports for generations now. The football program has been OK, but the Scots have been the league's doormat in basketball for quite a long time, and they've only won one MIAA baseball title over the past couple of decades. They have a couple of soccer titles from the late '90s, but that's it.

Nice play on semantics there - generations /decades.

Greg:
Wrong.  My wife is from Chicago but being an non-Chicagoland person, I have always considered the big city as being more than just Chicago and certainly some of those surrounding areas which are the greater Chicago area. Whether you define that different than me, I don't really care. I admit I poorly mis-stated that, didn't take time to proof-read my post, which I sometimes do and particularly when I get make them too long, so my apologies.  And BTW, Alma has not had problems in recruiting for decades as you mention, yes in the last one, but that certainly does not date back to the '90's or before, even when my brother was playing there.  I think I know a little more about that school than you do, just as you clearly do regarding your NPU over me.   

I don't know why I am jumping in on this (probably because the OAC board is dead) but I lived in Naperville*. Everytime I asked one of my neighbors (since I was unfamiliar with the area) about where to find...whatever - the standard response was "well you might find it (here) but I know you'll find it in the City". To me that means the people in the suburbs of Chicago - don't consider themselves part of the City. Ergo - the "Big City" has to mean Chicago and not the Chicagoland area.

*However, I am no Chicagoland expert - I packed up everything and moved there and then 13 days later repacked and took a transfer outta there. I had enough.

Well, that may be true your way.  However, I will mention that many people here in Michigan (not all, of course) consider Detroit as inclusive of "greater Detroit) and most of the outlying suburbs, even though many of those (like Naperville as you discuss) are cities in themselves and some very wealthy at that.  They are not just talking about downtown Detroit itself, although they, too, don't necessarily consider themselves a part of the downtown city, they will answer to being "from Detroit" when asked where they are from.          

[formerd3db]

I think Olivet would have the most difficult time of any CCIW or MIAA school recruiting student athletes.  I once had to visit Olivet for work and stayed in Marshall at a BnB as Olivet, the town, did not have a hotel or motel.  Also, if my memory is correct, the town had only one restaurant.  The athletic facilities were abysmal.

You are correct on that, although, unfortunately, some of that has to do with the academic program per se.  Again, nothing against Olivet grads at all, however, unfortunately, there are some differences as many of the MIAA coaching staffs will tell you.  Certainly some of the student-athletes that are recruited and get into Olivet would never get accepted at Hope, Kalamazoo or Albion - that's just a fact and is not meant as arrogant.  And that has an effect on recruiting approach and is what I was referring to in my statement about the academics, which Gregory berates me as being irrelevant to recruiting discussion in some context/aspects.  I just disagree and so do many of the coaches I know.

As far as Olivet, I agree with you that the town is not appealing to many.  Even a great number of the coaching staff live in outlying communities, Marshall, Charlotte and Lansing (i.e. the greater Lansing area ) and commute daily to campus.  I will say, though, that some of us do like the historic nature of the small town and they have really improved it since you were there.  There is now another restaurant, the downtown is clean and a few small shops, the College has constructed a new student village in keeping with the historic style architecture in a modern version and the athletic facilities are no longer abysmal as you previously had seen.  They are very nice for a college that size (football stadium expanded, new style turf, new basketball and wrestling arenas, locker rooms, weight rooms, training staff area, coaches offices and Athletic Hall of Fame, etc., etc.).  Olivet has also done a great job in preserving their historic buildings while adding modern ones and/or additions to the former.  Personally, I like the atmosphere of the historic campus, although perhaps some of that affinity is also because my late father was an architect who was involved in the design of their previous student center, which is still a nice modern building in the middle of campus that fits in well with the historic others as well as my interest in and having written on some of their football history in regards to the MIAA.

Overall, we all know that Olivet will always have a more difficult time in recruiting than the other MIAA schools or many other DIII schools.  The small town setting is not for everyone; their students indeed flock to Lansing, Battle Creek or Kazoo for night life.  But, they make do with what they have and can.  They had a very nice crowd (about 3,900) for Homecoming and their alumni/former players take pride in their alma mater.  Anyway, just thought I'd provide you the update regarding their campus.   

[matblake]

A few years ago when Wheaton played at Olivet, I didn't know what to expect as the previous time I had been there was 1994 for a wrestling meet.  The facilities were much improved and although a smaller crowd was in attendance, they were passionate all the way to the end.  There was also plenty of raffles, and other promotions.  Plus, the visitor seating actually had handicapped seating between the 30 yard lines instead of just between the 30 and the 10 down at one end as is most places.

[newparker]

Why is it that north park doesn't recruit any dvc players naperville 2 schools, glenbards, wheatons 2 school you don't see that area on their roster  or the aurora schools nequa or waubonsee  as those teams make the playoffs pretty much each year.  It seems they don't want to travel out that way.  alot of those players can help the team  they seem to go up north suburbs

[Gregory Sager]

Why is it that north park doesn't recruit any dvc players naperville 2 schools, glenbards, wheatons 2 school you don't see that area on their roster  or the aurora schools nequa or waubonsee  as those teams make the playoffs pretty much each year.  It seems they don't want to travel out that way.  alot of those players can help the team  they seem to go up north suburbs

Your assumption is incorrect, newparker. North Park does recruit DuPage Valley Conference players. Always has. The problem is that NPU never successfully recruits any of those players. I've gone into the problems that NPU has historically had with recruiting suburban players more times in this room than people can stand, so I'll leave it alone. Let's just say that NPU has had a really low batting average when it comes to recruiting the 'burbs for football -- not just the western 'burbs, but the northern 'burbs as well -- and leave it at that.

I didn't say that Alma has had trouble recruiting for decades. I said that Alma's had a tough time in men's sports for generations now. The football program has been OK, but the Scots have been the league's doormat in basketball for quite a long time, and they've only won one MIAA baseball title over the past couple of decades. They have a couple of soccer titles from the late '90s, but that's it.

Nice play on semantics there - generations /decades.

It's not semantics at all. You're talking about recruiting, and I'm talking about results. Two different subjects.

Greg:
Wrong.  My wife is from Chicago but being an non-Chicagoland person, I have always considered the big city as being more than just Chicago and certainly some of those surrounding areas which are the greater Chicago area. Whether you define that different than me, I don't really care. I admit I poorly mis-stated that, didn't take time to proof-read my post, which I sometimes do and particularly when I get make them too long, so my apologies.  And BTW, Alma has not had problems in recruiting for decades as you mention, yes in the last one, but that certainly does not date back to the '90's or before, even when my brother was playing there.  I think I know a little more about that school than you do, just as you clearly do regarding your NPU over me.   

I don't know why I am jumping in on this (probably because the OAC board is dead) but I lived in Naperville*. Everytime I asked one of my neighbors (since I was unfamiliar with the area) about where to find...whatever - the standard response was "well you might find it (here) but I know you'll find it in the City". To me that means the people in the suburbs of Chicago - don't consider themselves part of the City. Ergo - the "Big City" has to mean Chicago and not the Chicagoland area.

*However, I am no Chicagoland expert - I packed up everything and moved there and then 13 days later repacked and took a transfer outta there. I had enough.

Well, that may be true your way.  However, I will mention that many people here in Michigan (not all, of course) consider Detroit as inclusive of "greater Detroit) and most of the outlying suburbs, even though many of those (like Naperville as you discuss) are cities in themselves and some very wealthy at that.  They are not just talking about downtown Detroit itself, although they, too, don't necessarily consider themselves a part of the downtown city, they will answer to being "from Detroit" when asked where they are from.          

You mean people will actually say that they're from Detroit when they don't have to? Yikes! I mean, I can see why someone from Morton Grove or Naperville or Palos Park might shorthand it by identifying him- or herself as a Chicagoan, even though he or she really isn't one -- particularly if the suburbanite in question is talking to someone from another part of the country who has likely never heard of Morton Grove or Naperville or Palos Park. In spite of the bad press that the Windy City has been getting lately for its homicide rate, it's still a city that by and large has a positive image in the American public consciousness.

But Detroit? The city that became circa-1945 Hiroshima without anybody actually dropping an atomic bomb on it? Saying that you're from Detroit when you can safely say that you're from Grosse Pointe Woods or Livonia or Royal Oak, or at least that you're from "the suburbs of Detroit", strikes me as being the same thing as saying that you live in an outhouse when, in fact, you merely live next door to one.

I think Olivet would have the most difficult time of any CCIW or MIAA school recruiting student athletes.  I once had to visit Olivet for work and stayed in Marshall at a BnB as Olivet, the town, did not have a hotel or motel.  Also, if my memory is correct, the town had only one restaurant.  The athletic facilities were abysmal.

You are correct on that, although, unfortunately, some of that has to do with the academic program per se.  Again, nothing against Olivet grads at all, however, unfortunately, there are some differences as many of the MIAA coaching staffs will tell you.  Certainly some of the student-athletes that are recruited and get into Olivet would never get accepted at Hope, Kalamazoo or Albion - that's just a fact and is not meant as arrogant.  And that has an effect on recruiting approach and is what I was referring to in my statement about the academics, which Gregory berates me as being irrelevant to recruiting discussion in some context/aspects.  I just disagree and so do many of the coaches I know.

I wasn't "berating" ... I was simply saying that the academic aspect of recruiting, which I certainly agree exists, didn't fit into the context of that particular discussion.

As for Olivet College not being as bad as Mark described it, I agree with you. I was there last year to do play-by-play at the NPU @ OC football game. Aside from the fact that OC SID Geoff Henson and his staff treated us really well, I was impressed by the Olivet athletic facilities. They're certainly on a vastly smaller scale than those of Calvin and Hope, and lack some of the bells and whistles that Calvin and Hope enjoy, but for a school of its size and resources Olivet College did a very nice job of upgrading in recent years and has no reason to be ashamed of what it offers. I walked around the campus a bit as well, and I found it charming. The one-stoplight-hamlet aspect can be a bit daunting, as it's clearly a bit of an obstacle to recruit for a school located in such a tiny village. But it's not an insurmountable obstacle (Exhibit A: Ohio Northern is located in Ada, OH, a village of 6,000 that's twice as far from a city of any size as Olivet is; ONU seems to do quite nicely for itself in terms of sports).

[AndOne]

newparker---

I don't know if its the #1 reason, but I'm sure its high on the list. Thats the fact, as Greg Sager has reminded us many times, that the schools/communities you mentioned are the heart of the far western suburbs. The emphasis is on the word suburb(s) where 99.9% of high school students give nary a thought to anything associated with the big, bad city other than fun and frolic which certainly does not include anything associated with academically related pursuits. Furthermore the HS kids parents who watch the 10:00 news each night and experience constant reports of beatings, murders, and other criminal activity, are not about to shell out thousands of dollars for their sons/daughters to attend school in what, when compared to the suburban environment to which they are accustomed, seems like a foreign country.

[formerd3db]

Gregory:

Not trying to pick a fight with you.  I just disagree on some points.  However, that said, the discussion encompassed a wide range of subjects with many aspects that intertwine in many ways.  The latter, sometimes in such discussions, can get "blurred" for lack of a better description and we can all sometimes be misunderstood on certain aspects aside from simply differing opinions in these all  encompassing comparisons (yes, I know you were talking about some very specific aspects; perhaps I was trying to combine too many into one). Anyway, lest anyone gets more tired of this "back and forth", I think everyone knows where any of us are coming from.   Thus, I'll move on from this (and yes, some people do say that i.e. about Detroit.  Another quick example; I am originally from the Flint, MI area, but certainly not in the city.  However, I and others, have always said/considered ourselves from as being from Flint.  Of course, that does not compare to Chicago or Detroit per se in regarding size, but the "greater Flint" communities/towns/cities concept does.  In the same vein as you are mentioning though, perhaps some "Flintites" are having second thoughts about admitting they are from Flint in this current times.   being that it is now the "Murder Capital of the Nation" replacing Detroit, Atlanta, Miami and even Chicago, which all held that title at one time or another in the last few years! But...that said, some of us will always be from Flint (...I mean the greater Flint area. .

Regardless, I agree with your description and assessment of Olivet.  While quaint and having some appeal to some student-athletes, it certainly is not to others when you have other colleges to pick from as you have mentioned.  I like your comparison of Ohio Northern.  Indeed, it seems to be out in the middle of nowhere, but is an beautiful campus and has good facilities, the town is not too bad.  I suppose we could also include in the discussion Bluffton in the same vein, although that is obviously closer to I-75 and an easier "blast" to "civilization" i.e. Bowling Green, Dayton or even Toledo.

[Mr. Ypsi]

Greg, came over some time and I'll give you a tour of Detroit that will knock your socks off. Parts of Detroit are "Hiroshima-1945" (OK, large parts of it).  But it also is a lovely city in many areas and has many restaurants as good as anything Chicago has to offer (and I love Chicago).  And the Detroit Institute of the Arts is barely a half-step below the Art Institute; likewise with the Detroit Symphony to the Chicago Symphony.  Detroit's problem (aside from many incompetents on city council and a totally corrupt mayor) is they just lived in a state of total denial that they were no longer (and probably never would be again) a city of 2,000,000 people.

Nevertheless, because of very widespread perceptions like yours, I tell people I am from 'near Detroit' (or, usually, next to Ann Arbor).  Few people outside of SE Michigan know Ypsilanti (except, perhaps, fans of other MAC schools).  (And perhaps those familiar with The Three Christs of Ypsilanti, but I don't really think I want to be known because of the former state mental hospital either! )

[Gregory Sager]

Thus, I'll move on from this (and yes, some people do say that i.e. about Detroit.  Another quick example; I am originally from the Flint, MI area, but certainly not in the city.  However, I and others, have always said/considered ourselves from as being from Flint.  Of course, that does not compare to Chicago or Detroit per se in regarding size, but the "greater Flint" communities/towns/cities concept does.  In the same vein as you are mentioning though, perhaps some "Flintites" are having second thoughts about admitting they are from Flint in this current times.   being that it is now the "Murder Capital of the Nation" replacing Detroit, Atlanta, Miami and even Chicago, which all held that title at one time or another in the last few years! But...that said, some of us will always be from Flint (...I mean the greater Flint area. .

One of my sisters-in-law is from Lake Fenton, which is 13 miles outside of Flint. (Her dad used to work for GM.) When I first met her, she would tell people that she was from Flint, Michigan. Now she tells people that she "grew up near Flint, Michigan." It's a subtle but noticeable change.

Greg, came over some time and I'll give you a tour of Detroit that will knock your socks off. Parts of Detroit are "Hiroshima-1945" (OK, large parts of it).  But it also is a lovely city in many areas and has many restaurants as good as anything Chicago has to offer (and I love Chicago).  And the Detroit Institute of the Arts is barely a half-step below the Art Institute; likewise with the Detroit Symphony to the Chicago Symphony.  Detroit's problem (aside from many incompetents on city council and a totally corrupt mayor) is they just lived in a state of total denial that they were no longer (and probably never would be again) a city of 2,000,000 people.

Oh, I've been to Detroit. I know that the entire town hasn't become the surface of the moon. But, as you admit, a whole lot of it has. And, sadly, I don't see it ever coming back to be even a shadow of what it once was, even if Detroiters can manage to reconcile themselves to it being a much smaller city than before. The city has been ruined beyond redemption.

Nevertheless, because of very widespread perceptions like yours, I tell people I am from 'near Detroit' (or, usually, next to Ann Arbor).  Few people outside of SE Michigan know Ypsilanti (except, perhaps, fans of other MAC schools).  (And perhaps those familiar with The Three Christs of Ypsilanti, but I don't really think I want to be known because of the former state mental hospital either! )

"Next to Ann Arbor" works, because, unlike Ypsilanti, Ann Arbor is a nationally-known location. But then you have to deal with the loaded perceptions and assumptions that come with identifying yourself as being from a major college town.

[Gregory Sager]

More great thoughts from Ken Massey's HAL 9000:

    5. North Central
  17. Illinois Wesleyan
  26. Wheaton
  97. Augustana
120. North Park
137. Carthage
138. Elmhurst
181. Millikin

Remember, this is out of 245 teams participating in D3 football.

His computer makes these projections for Saturday:

Augustana 28, Carthage 24 (64% chance of AC win)
North Park 17, Elmhurst 16 (51% chance of NPU win)
North Central 31, Illinois Wesleyan 24 ((75% chance of NCC win)
Wheaton 45, Millikin 14 (99% chance of MU win)

These should be taken with more than a grain of salt, of course; the Massey projections got both the NPU @ AC and WC @ IWU games wrong last week in terms of picking the winners.

[sac]

But Detroit? The city that became circa-1945 Hiroshima without anybody actually dropping an atomic bomb on it? Saying that you're from Detroit when you can safely say that you're from Grosse Pointe Woods or Livonia or Royal Oak, or at least that you're from "the suburbs of Detroit", strikes me as being the same thing as saying that you live in an outhouse when, in fact, you merely live next door to one.

People in Milford say they're from "The D".  40 miles from downtown.......but soooooo much further.