FB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[Mr. Ypsi]

Yep. That's obvious. But I was wondering what the regulars in this room think about how this will affect the CCIW in terms of football competitiveness. Anyone have any thoughts on where Carroll fits in the CCIW's gridiron pecking order?

In the early aughts, they were North Park, if not worse.

Pre-Conway North Park or post-Conway North Park?

By the dates I gave, obviously pre-Conway.  Even pre-Conway, North Park beat some non-con foes - Carroll in those days was down among those they might or might not have beaten.  At that time, by CCIW standards, they were hopeless.  These days, they may be at least somewhat competitive, though not for a championship for the foreseeable future (or, IMO, even for a top-half spot).

Fortunately, their (men's) basketball team is in better shape.  I doubt they will make the conference tourny the first few years, but they will give teams competitive games, and may surprise a few.  I haven't yet checked out their other sports.

[Gregory Sager]

I was kidding (sort of) about the pre-Conway vs. post-Conway thing. I suspect that CCIW people are going to hold onto the deeply-rooted concept of NPU being a football laughingstock in their heads for quite some time, especially since one could plausibly put forth the "blind squirrel finds a nut" argument about 2013.

Carroll is solid in men's basketball. Let's not forget that the Pioneers beat Augie and St. Thomas and made it to the Sweet Sixteen not too many years ago.

[gbpuckfan]

the release:

Waukesha—(April 25, 2014)—Carroll University will join the College Conference of Illinois & Wisconsin (CCIW) as a full member in the 2016-17 academic year. It is anticipated the university will become an associate member for women's lacrosse beginning in 2015-16, one year before full membership in the CCIW begins. Carroll returns to the CCIW after a 22-year absence, bringing the total number of full members in the conference to nine.

"We are delighted to return to the CCIW. It is one of the premier NCAA Division III conferences in the country and is comprised of institutions that are widely recognized for academic excellence," said Doug Hastad, president of Carroll University. "We are especially excited for our student-athletes who will be able to test their skills against some of the finest competition in the country. We look forward to renewing our relationship with these outstanding institutions. It is a proud day for the Carroll family."

Carroll was a member of the CCIW conference from 1955 to 1992. Since then, Carroll has been a member of the Midwest Conference. The announcement marks the first change in full membership since the university left the CCIW after the 1991-92 academic year.

"Joining the CCIW is a significant achievement for our Pioneers Athletic Program," said Joe Baker, athletic director for Carroll University. "Future student-athletes have a lot to look forward to as we also prepare to add men's and women's lacrosse to our sports lineup in fall, and begin renovations on our Van Male Fieldhouse this summer."

Founded in 1846, Carroll University serves an enrollment of 3,539 students and an athletics department that sponsors 20 sports (10 men's and 10 women's). The university is adding men's and women's lacrosse for the 2014-15 season.

"Our office will begin the process of incorporating Carroll into all of our conference schedules starting in 2016-17," CCIW Commissioner Chris Martin said. "We will work to create draft schedules for our athletics directors to review and decide upon as we add an additional game or series."

Currently, the CCIW sponsors 21 sports and will sponsor men's & women's lacrosse beginning in 2014-15. CCIW schools have accounted for 46 NCAA Division III National Championships in its 68-year history.

[AndOne]

Carroll finished 6-4 this past football season, 5-4 in a decidedly weaker conference than the CCIW.
At 1-9, and 2-8 respectively, they probably handle Carthage and Millikin. Things become no better than a 50/50 proposition against 3-7 North Park, and somewhat less than that against 4-6 Elmhurst. 5-5 Augie likely beats CU by 10 points, Wheaton and Wesleyan kick them back to Waukesha, or perhaps all the way to Green Bay, and North Central boots them over Wisconsin's northern border into the UP.
6th place at best, likely 7th.

[NCF]

Carroll finished 6-4 this past football season, 5-4 in a decidedly weaker conference than the CCIW.
At 1-9, and 2-8 respectively, they probably handle Carthage and Millikin. Things become no better than a 50/50 proposition against 3-7 North Park, and somewhat less than that against 4-6 Elmhurst. 5-5 Augie likely beats CU by 10 points, Wheaton and Wesleyan kick them back to Waukesha, or perhaps all the way to Green Bay, and North Central boots them over Wisconsin's northern border into the UP.
6th place at best, likely 7th.

Agree! Big mistake to let them back in and lose the opportunity to schedule a quality non-con game. Eight team conferences are big enough.

[Gregory Sager]

Big mistake to let them back in and lose the opportunity to schedule a quality non-con game.

But that point's becoming moot, NCF. The CCIW has entered into an agreement with the MIAA for an annual challenge-game series starting this fall, and the league has enacted a similar agreement with the IIAC for a challenge-game series starting in a couple of years. Non-conference scheduling is becoming less and less of a variable that coaches can manipulate for SOS purposes.

[NCF]

Big mistake to let them back in and lose the opportunity to schedule a quality non-con game.

But that point's becoming moot, NCF. The CCIW has entered into an agreement with the MIAA for an annual challenge-game series starting this fall, and the league has enacted a similar agreement with the IIAC for a challenge-game series starting in a couple of years. Non-conference scheduling is becoming less and less of a variable that coaches can manipulate for SOS purposes.

How boring and predictable. Leaves no room for trips like NC took to Redlands. Did the coaches have any say in this? I can't imagine they all think this a good idea.

[Gregory Sager]

The only coach I've spoken to about it is Mike Conway, and he seems non-committal to the process. He's new to the league, so he hasn't really had the experience of seeing how it's gotten harder and harder to fill out the non-conference schedule for a lot of CCIW teams in recent years.

And it's going to get even more difficult to find non-conference games that are tailored to your liking, NCF. For instance, Chicago and Wash U are joining the SAA, which will lock up their schedules. And more and more leagues are moving towards the challenge-series format, which means that those leagues are locking up their teams' skeds as well.

As for "trips like NCC took to Redlands," that's a very expensive proposition. It's quite difficult for most schools to work a plane-ride visiting game into their budgets, and most coaches would rather avoid the hassle of extrabudgetary fundraising to make it happen.

[Gregory Sager]

It will certainly be interesting to see how the addition of Carroll works out in terms of the CCIW's non-conference football scheduling. On the one hand, there's less work involved in having to find two non-con games rather than three. On the other hand, the addition of a ninth team makes the CCIW a less attractive challenge-series match for other leagues. The CCIW/MIAA challenge already forces the CCIW to have one team (in this case, North Central) fend for itself that weekend, because the MIAA only has seven teams with which to match up to the CCIW's eight. Adding a ninth team would skew the CCIW/MIAA pairings even more, forcing two CCIW teams to find outside games that weekend ... which makes me wonder if the CCIW/MIAA Challenge will survive the addition of Carroll.

Likewise, the perfectly-balanced CCIW/IIAC Challenge, which as it stands will be an eight-versus-eight proposition, gets skewed with the addition of Carroll. And any consideration of a challenge with the eight-team WIAC would be similarly affected. And the Carroll switch would still not be enough for the CCIW and MWC to pair up, since the latter league will still have ten football members. (Not that I think anyone in the CCIW is clamoring to pair up with the MWC for a challenge series.)

So we'll have to wait and see what happens, I guess.

[NCF]

The only coach I've spoken to about it is Mike Conway, and he seems non-committal to the process. He's new to the league, so he hasn't really had the experience of seeing how it's gotten harder and harder to fill out the non-conference schedule for a lot of CCIW teams in recent years.

And it's going to get even more difficult to find non-conference games that are tailored to your liking, NCF. For instance, Chicago and Wash U are joining the SAA, which will lock up their schedules. And more and more leagues are moving towards the challenge-series format, which means that those leagues are locking up their teams' skeds as well.

As for "trips like NCC took to Redlands," that's a very expensive proposition. It's quite difficult for most schools to work a plane-ride visiting game into their budgets, and most coaches would rather avoid the hassle of extrabudgetary fundraising to make it happen.

I'm not saying the trip has to be that far every other year, because that would be very expensive, but there has to be another option besides conference  challenges. It doesn't leave any room for scheduling up.

[Gregory Sager]

The leadership of the CCIW doesn't agree. Their take is that the inclusion of a congenial new member will more fully encompass CCIW athletics within the league's own competition, and that such considerations as strength of schedule (as determined in large part by how CCIW teams do in non-conference play) are of secondary importance.

[Pat Coleman]

I suspect that with an extra conference game, the CCIW will drop one of those challenges.

If North Central wants a challenge, play Whitewater.

[Gregory Sager]

My bet is that the two-team difference between the CCIW and MIAA will dictate that the CCIW/MIAA Challenge gets dropped.

[robertgoulet]

I suspect that with an extra conference game, the CCIW will drop one of those challenges.

If North Central wants a challenge, play Whitewater.

I'm ok with that. Alternate UWW and Mt Union every other year 

[wally_wabash]

Minutiae of negligible importance alert...

Just for fun I thought I'd go back and see how Carroll did in their non-league game (just one, as we know, from the bulky MWC) and they have won their last four- all against Lakeland.  The last time Carroll lost a non-league game was against, wait for it, North Park in 2009.