FB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[79jaybird]

I think having Carroll rejoin is a positive.  I would also welcome the idea of bringing back Lake Forest (or perhaps Benedictine) to make it a 10-team tier.  If 10 teams, you could in theory split it up into two 5-school divisions.  Take 1 step at a time I like the proximity of Carroll to schools like Car/NPU/EC/NC and will make recruiting a bit more of a challenge for some HC's.   

[Pat Coleman]

There's no real benefit in Division III for splitting a 10-team league into divisions. If you had 12, that's a different story, because the winners of each division could play a championship game as an 11th game.

[AndOne]

Minutiae of negligible importance alert...

Just for fun I thought I'd go back and see how Carroll did in their non-league game (just one, as we know, from the bulky MWC) and they have won their last four- all against Lakeland.  The last time Carroll lost a non-league game was against, wait for it, North Park in 2009.

2013 was the first year Lakeland had a winning season since '09 when they finished 6-5. Appears there is a distinct possibility those last 4 non-conference games would not have all been Ws had they played a little tougher competition.
Also, the wins Carroll chalked up against Lakeland and their loss to North Park, which hasn't exactly been at the top of the CCIW standings recently, goes to illustrate the relative strength of the CCIW as compared to most other conferences. In joining the CCIW, Carroll is taking a definite step up in the level of competition they will be facing on a regular basis. 

[formerd3db]

There's no real benefit in Division III for splitting a 10-team league into divisions. If you had 12, that's a different story, because the winners of each division could play a championship game as an 11th game.

Pat, but the only way that scenario could be possible is if the 12 team conference chose not to participate in the NCAA playoffs similar to the NESCAC i.e due to the 10 game regular season limit, correct?     

[formerd3db]

Obviously, this is only speculation for discussion and "what-if", however, if the CCIW was to take in additional teams (after Carroll), what two colleges do all of you believe would be the most logical and/or best fit to do so in all aspects, probably geography being among the top considerations. I say the latter because most over time, there is always the possibility that any team with less talent for the competition at present has the opportunity to improve over time to become more competitive. 

A couple of you have mentioned some possibilities; Benedictine, Lake Forest.  What about St. Norbert and/or Concordia-Chicago, or Wis Lutheran? (or other teams in the MWC, NAAC, etc.) Also, if any of those schools would leave their current conferences, what colleges in their regions would you see as possible replacements in any realignment/reconfiguring?  Potentially, a lot of options, but then again, perhaps not.

[wally_wabash]

There's no real benefit in Division III for splitting a 10-team league into divisions. If you had 12, that's a different story, because the winners of each division could play a championship game as an 11th game.

Pat, but the only way that scenario could be possible is if the 12 team conference chose not to participate in the NCAA playoffs similar to the NESCAC i.e due to the 10 game regular season limit, correct?     

No, it can be done.  The NEFC did this for quite a while before they split up last year.  You've just got to play your ten  regular season games in weeks 1-10, then your league title game in week 11.  I never though the NEFC thing made much sense because the two divisions each had enough teams to qualify for their own AQ.  And then in 2012, that game and the way it tweaked the SOS numbers just a bit managed to get Bridgewater State (who didn't play in the game) invited to the tournament.  So what do I know about whether or not a league title game makes sense.   

[formerd3db]

There's no real benefit in Division III for splitting a 10-team league into divisions. If you had 12, that's a different story, because the winners of each division could play a championship game as an 11th game.

Pat, but the only way that scenario could be possible is if the 12 team conference chose not to participate in the NCAA playoffs similar to the NESCAC i.e due to the 10 game regular season limit, correct?     

No, it can be done.  The NEFC did this for quite a while before they split up last year.  You've just got to play your ten  regular season games in weeks 1-10, then your league title game in week 11.  I never though the NEFC thing made much sense because the two divisions each had enough teams to qualify for their own AQ.  And then in 2012, that game and the way it tweaked the SOS numbers just a bit managed to get Bridgewater State (who didn't play in the game) invited to the tournament.  So what do I know about whether or not a league title game makes sense.   

Wally:

Indeed, starting earlier (like DI has been doing in recent years) works for that scenario.  However, I thought that the NCAA only allowed a 10 game regular season in DIII? Or is that a conference or school choice?  (Now, please no slams on me, friends...I realize I should know that answer, but, I seem to be having one of those "senior moments" )

[wally_wabash]

There's no real benefit in Division III for splitting a 10-team league into divisions. If you had 12, that's a different story, because the winners of each division could play a championship game as an 11th game.

Pat, but the only way that scenario could be possible is if the 12 team conference chose not to participate in the NCAA playoffs similar to the NESCAC i.e due to the 10 game regular season limit, correct?     

No, it can be done.  The NEFC did this for quite a while before they split up last year.  You've just got to play your ten  regular season games in weeks 1-10, then your league title game in week 11.  I never though the NEFC thing made much sense because the two divisions each had enough teams to qualify for their own AQ.  And then in 2012, that game and the way it tweaked the SOS numbers just a bit managed to get Bridgewater State (who didn't play in the game) invited to the tournament.  So what do I know about whether or not a league title game makes sense.   

Wally:

Indeed, starting earlier (like DI has been doing in recent years) works for that scenario.  However, I thought that the NCAA only allowed a 10 game regular season in DIII? Or is that a conference or school choice?  (Now, please no slams on me, friends...I realize I should know that answer, but, I seem to be having one of those "senior moments" )

We're both right.  The NCAA lets you play 10 regular season games.  Then they also allow you to play a conference championship game (if the conference wants to do such a thing) which doesn't count against your ten games.  The catch is that you have to do it all in the 11 Saturdays prior to Selection Sunday. 

[AndOne]

Obviously, this is only speculation for discussion and "what-if", however, if the CCIW was to take in additional teams (after Carroll), what two colleges do all of you believe would be the most logical and/or best fit to do so in all aspects, probably geography being among the top considerations. I say the latter because most over time, there is always the possibility that any team with less talent for the competition at present has the opportunity to improve over time to become more competitive. 

A couple of you have mentioned some possibilities; Benedictine, Lake Forest.  What about St. Norbert and/or Concordia-Chicago, or Wis Lutheran? (or other teams in the MWC, NAAC, etc.) Also, if any of those schools would leave their current conferences, what colleges in their regions would you see as possible replacements in any realignment/reconfiguring?  Potentially, a lot of options, but then again, perhaps not.

Former----

The chances of either Benedictine or St. Norbert joining the CCIW anytime in the foreseeable future are slim and none. See the CCIW basketball room starting on page 2499 for a discussion relative to this possibility.

[Gregory Sager]

Obviously, this is only speculation for discussion and "what-if", however, if the CCIW was to take in additional teams (after Carroll), what two colleges do all of you believe would be the most logical and/or best fit to do so in all aspects, probably geography being among the top considerations. I say the latter because most over time, there is always the possibility that any team with less talent for the competition at present has the opportunity to improve over time to become more competitive. 

A couple of you have mentioned some possibilities; Benedictine, Lake Forest.  What about St. Norbert and/or Concordia-Chicago, or Wis Lutheran? (or other teams in the MWC, NAAC, etc.) Also, if any of those schools would leave their current conferences, what colleges in their regions would you see as possible replacements in any realignment/reconfiguring?  Potentially, a lot of options, but then again, perhaps not.

Former----

The chances of either Benedictine or St. Norbert joining the CCIW anytime in the foreseeable future are slim and none. See the CCIW basketball room starting on page 2499 for a discussion relative to this possibility.

I'd bet good money that if you presented the CCIW's eight presidents with a mandate to pick a tenth member to come in alongside Carroll -- a mandate that does not exist, by the way -- all eight of them would pick Lake Forest. LFC would be an ideal CCIW candidate, for several reasons:

* it has an outstanding academic reputation;
* it's located in Chicagoland;
* it's a former CCIW member, and the CCIW has a habit of welcoming back prodigal sons (Carthage, Wheaton, Elmhurst, and now Carroll have all left the league at some point and then returned);
* it has a healthy, CCIW-sized endowment ($71m, according to Wikiguessia)

The one sticking point is that there's no Foresters baseball team, so LFC would have to add that sport in order to join the CCIW. (It's one of the three men's sports in which CCIW schools are required to field a team, as per CCIW bylaws, along with football and men's basketball.) But adding a baseball team isn't nearly as much of a seismic shift to a campus as, say, adding football (either budgetarily or culturally), and if LFC really wanted to get into the CCIW I doubt that the school's leadership would break a sweat over adding a baseball program.

But, to the best of my knowledge, LFC is perfectly happy right where it is and shows no interest in returning to the CCIW.

After Lake Forest, I'd say that Beloit, Knox, and Monmouth (listed in no particular order other than alphabetical) would be the most winsome choices in the eyes of the CCIW's presidents, due to their sterling academic reputations, endowment size, and location within the existing geographic footprint of the league. But, again, I don't think that any of those three schools are all that interested in joining the CCIW.

In terms of the schools you've named, formerd3db, Concordia IL is relatively impoverished by CCIW standards. It has a $16m endowment; with $41m in the coffers, Carroll will be the least-endowed CCIW member when it enters, and the smallest endowment of any current CCIW member is Carthage's (which, depending upon what Internet source you're reading, appears to be either $51m or $70m ... where's Dave Wrath when you need him? ;-) ). Wisconsin Lutheran's endowment is $18m; plus, WLC is half the size of the current smallest member (North Park) in terms of undergraduate population, enrolling barely a thousand undergrads. I don't see either one as a likely CCIW candidate. Aurora would probably have a better shot at CCIW membership than either Concordia IL or WLC. But none of these NACC schools has the academic luster or the financial strength that the four MWC schools I've named possess, and that's the kind of stuff that college presidents look at when they talk about league expansion.

[kiko]

Setting aside all practical considerations and focusing solely on the a school's general competitiveness on the field, my dream #10 would be one of: DePauw, Wabash, Franklin, or Rose-Hulman.  (And yes, I am aware that the Engineers already sit at the CCIW kids' table each Thanksgiving, but then don't wait an hour before they go swimming.  I also know there's not a chance in Hoosierville that any of these fine institutions would get the nod over a more local institution.)

Alternately, I may give my vote to Grinnell, if only to watch heads explode all over this board each basketball season.

[wally_wabash]

Setting aside all practical considerations and focusing solely on the a school's general competitiveness on the field, my dream #10 would be one of: DePauw, Wabash, Franklin, or Rose-Hulman.  (And yes, I am aware that the Engineers already sit at the CCIW kids' table each Thanksgiving, but then don't wait an hour before they go swimming.  I also know there's not a chance in Hoosierville that any of these fine institutions would get the nod over a more local institution.)

Alternately, I may give my vote to Grinnell, if only to watch heads explode all over this board each basketball season.

Interestingly, the rumors (loud, thundering rumors) from back in the day were that Wabash had poked around at getting into your fine conference during the aftermath of DePauw and RHIT bailing out of the ICAC for warmer climes and gargantuan travel budgets- but that the interest wasn't mutual. 

[Gregory Sager]

Setting aside all practical considerations and focusing solely on the a school's general competitiveness on the field, my dream #10 would be one of: DePauw, Wabash, Franklin, or Rose-Hulman.  (And yes, I am aware that the Engineers already sit at the CCIW kids' table each Thanksgiving, but then don't wait an hour before they go swimming.  I also know there's not a chance in Hoosierville that any of these fine institutions would get the nod over a more local institution.)

Alternately, I may give my vote to Grinnell, if only to watch heads explode all over this board each basketball season.

The people who would really curse that would be the league's SIDs. Typing in live stats for a Grinnell basketball game is the sports equivalent of the episode of I Love Lucy in which Lucy is working the conveyor belt at a chocolate factory.

Interestingly, the rumors (loud, thundering rumors) from back in the day were that Wabash had poked around at getting into your fine conference during the aftermath of DePauw and RHIT bailing out of the ICAC for warmer climes and gargantuan travel budgets- but that the interest wasn't mutual. 

Wabash's problem is that it's a hard sell for a conference like the CCIW because it only covers half the waterfront as far as sports are concerned. If Wabash could've paired itself with, say, St. Mary's or Alverno as half of a male/female tandem bid, I think that your alma mater might've had a better shot at getting a hearing from the CCIW presidents.

The CCIW was a latecomer in sponsoring women's sports -- it didn't happen until the 1986-87 school year -- and the league has been earnestly attempting to make up for it ever since by bending over backwards to make the league as gender-equitable as possible.

[wally_wabash]

Interestingly, the rumors (loud, thundering rumors) from back in the day were that Wabash had poked around at getting into your fine conference during the aftermath of DePauw and RHIT bailing out of the ICAC for warmer climes and gargantuan travel budgets- but that the interest wasn't mutual. 

Wabash's problem is that it's a hard sell for a conference like the CCIW because it only covers half the waterfront as far as sports are concerned. If Wabash could've paired itself with, say, St. Mary's or Alverno as half of a male/female tandem bid, I think that your alma mater might've had a better shot at getting a hearing from the CCIW presidents.

The CCIW was a latecomer in sponsoring women's sports -- it didn't happen until the 1986-87 school year -- and the league has been earnestly attempting to make up for it ever since by bending over backwards to make the league as gender-equitable as possible.

Oh for sure.  I wasn't trying to editorialize there at all, just saying that it is a thing that has been looked at before.  I totally get that we aren't the easiest group to just plug and play into a new athletic conference and I certainly don't begrudge the league for not kicking the door open for us way back in the 90s. 

[formerd3db]

AndOne and Gregory S:

Thanks for the follow-up info and your opinions.  AndOne, I didn't realize that a league "extra" championship game didn't count against the 10 game regular season total.  Obviously, that is good for those conferences that desire it.

Also, Gregory, love your levity! (Wikiguessia,  , etc.).  In all seriousness, though, your pros/cons regarding considerations of any potential additional CCIW member all make sense.  I can certainly also understand the "academic card".  In addition, personally, I, too, think that Lake Forest would make an ideal candidate, if they wanted to return to the CCIW and that, as you say, it wouldn't be too hard or an insurmountable challenge.

Oh, and BTW G.S., I think you are right that if it comes to having to make such a decision for reasons you and others mentioned, the CCIW/MIAA challenge would be the one eliminated.  I think it is a good series,  however, yet, indeed, would be much easier/better if our MIAA had an additional team.  Of course, if Calvin added football, that would solve the problem, but that appears not going to happen for a long time, if at all, despite the recent re-visiting of that issue by them last year.  Thus, right now, I can't think of any Michigan school that the MIAA would take in, even if it were considering to do so (and I'm not saying that is on the table because I do not know/haven't heard any inkling as such anyway).  Siena Heights, Concordia-Ann Arbor and Davenport might be possibilities in the eyes of some people since they all have added football, but they are NAIA right now (scholarship in football, I thought, but I could be wrong on that).  Regardless, it is highly likely the CCIW/MIAA challenge will be over by the time any new school would ever be added, so all these speculative considerations would be moot anyway!    

Thanks again, gentlemen, for your replies.