FB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[79jaybird]

Here is my view on the Heisman debate between Young/Bush. 
1) IMO, USC would have made it this far without Bush, because Leinart and the offense are equipped and their defense is strong.  Texas would not be Nat'l Champs without Young, which indicates to me Young is more valuable to his team consequently I feel he deserved the Heisman.
When I watch D-1 football, I am a Big 10 guy (U of I) and don't care for any school in CA and don't like Texas either..  IMO, the real Nat'l Championship game was Penn State and Paterno winning the big game.

[vikes35]

jaybird,

I agree with you completely on the basis of why Young should have won the Heisman but I failed to mention that in my post. Leinart could have brought that team to the title game, Bush was replacable as was shown by the fact that White was the USC star of that game, not Bush. Augiedogie mentions that Bush had 11.6 yards per touch and that is good, but he admits that Bush only gets half of the carries, whereas Young runs the Texas team and touches the ball every play while also having to make decisions, showing me his means more to his team and should have been the Heisman winner.

However I don't think Penn State should have been Nat'l Champs for multiple reasons. One they had a regular season loss to a less than great Michigan team while Texas went undeated with very few games being close. I know the loss was in the last second but it was still a loss. Also I have watched that Texas team quite a bit this year and I believe that they would have been able to take Penn State by a good margain. I understand that you are happy that Penn State won the game, can't say the same as I am huge FSU fan, but lets not stretch things too far. PSU had a great year, but Texas beating USC was probably the most honest Nat'l title game outside of a playoff since FSU/ Va Tech in 2000.

[79jaybird]

Vikes35-  I agree   this year you had 4 very deserving teams in the hunt for a Nat'l title, but you only had 2 unbeatens.. say no more  those team will play.
FSU fan?  Did you have family that went there are just like the school?
When do Spring practices begin for most of the CCIW schools?

[Mugsy]

Last night Bush touched the ball 24 times and it produced 279 yards or over 11.6  yards per touch.

I'm not trying to question Bush's ability, but in my opinion LeDale White had a greater impact in the game.  120 yards rushing on 20 carries and 3 TD's.  I think Texas did a great job limiting Bush's ability to get to the corner and into the open, where he can break it at virtually any point.  LeDale White was very effective because he is "between the tackles" running.  Texas kept stringing Bush out to the sideline where he ran out of real estate - other than 2 of his rushes (1 for TD, 1 for the stupid lateral).  In the open field, Bush is scary good.  Problem for USC, Texas didn't give him much opportunity to get in open space.

What skews Bush's stats are that some of this "touches" come on kickoff returns, which are obviously going to be more than 11 yards each.  If you take out the kick returns, the one 26 yard TD run, and the one 37 yard reception (fumbled lateral), Bush's stats look like:

12 rushes for 56 yards (4.6 yds per carry)  - good, but not great.
5 receptions for 58 yards (11.3 per catch) - good also

So that would be 17 touches for 114 yards (6.7 yds per touch)... while a single game doesn't define a Heisman trophy, those are definitely not Heisman numbers.

Even with the TD run and long reception the stats would be: 19 touches for 177 yards (9.3 yds per touch).   Pretty good, but not Vince Young good! 

Vikes35,  well said...

[Mugsy]

In the category of "hindsight makes a genius from an idiot", why didn't Coach Carroll have Reggie Bush in the line up on the 4th and 2 play in the 4th quarter?

Since LeDale White was clearly having a strong game, especially in getting the tough yards, it allowed Texas to focus almost exclusively on him for that failed play.  Texas players even said so afterwards... "we knew exactly who the ball was going too..."  If you line up Bush in the slot position, that at least forces some question into the mind of Texas defenders.  I don't question the call to go for it on 4th down as much as I do the personnel used on the play.

[79jaybird]

Mugsy--  "Why didn't Coach Carroll have Reggie Bush in the line up on the 4th and 2 play in the 4th quarter?"  This and my question is Why doesn't Carroll PUNT THE BALL

[79jaybird]

hit the wrong key     the other part of why doesn't Carroll punt the ball is why doesn't Carroll play the field position game and make Texas "earn it" by marching down the field.
Lastly, Why did they burn their precious lone time out on a 2 point Conversion play?  That's a no brainer

[usee]

Mugsy--  "Why didn't Coach Carroll have Reggie Bush in the line up on the 4th and 2 play in the 4th quarter?"  This and my question is Why doesn't Carroll PUNT THE BALL

I have no problem w Carroll's call. you play to win. don't play "not to lose". they hadn't stopped them yet, what makes you think they were gonna stop them from 15-30 yds farther out? in that situation pete carroll had a chance to win the national championship by gaining 1 yd w one of the best offenses in the country. anyone who wouldn't take that chance is a fool in my view. that said, i agree w Mugsy, bush should have been on the field for that play.

[jdean]

jaybird,
...loss to a less than great Michigan team...

... but Texas beating USC was probably the most honest Nat'l title game outside of a playoff since FSU/ Va Tech in 2000.

ALL U of M teams are less than great (unless they get alot of Mount Union transfers).

I'd suggest the unreviewed lateral by Young at the ten where his knee was clearly on the ground taints the "honesty" of this win.

And while the discussion is on D1 something has been gnawing at me since I saw the ND vs OSU. That ND coach has to have one of the foulest mouths in college football. When the camera would show him yelling at the refs you could read his lips--it was like he was reciting the words from the profanity dictionary. Having said that, I must know and use those same words from time to time or I wouldn't have been able to see what he was saying.  But when I stray it isn't at my job, in public nor at any place associated with a religion.  N.D. has alot of integrity in my book so I hope someone sits his butt down and tells him to clean up his act before he embarrasses the school.

[CardinalAlum]

jdean,

If you think that Charlie Weis is the only one that uses that type of language on the sideline then you don't watch much college or any type of football for that matter.  Because Weis is a high profile guy, the cameras are on him more than most.  Watch Joe Paterno, Lloyd Carr, Steve Spurrier, I know you will see the same type of behavior.  I'm not condoning it, but it seems to be the norm.  The problem is the networks infatuation with showing the coach's every pick, grab, adjustment and outburst.  Isn't the game played on the field?  I can't remember which bowl game I was watching this year, but the cameras repeatedly showed the D coordinator of this team doing some semblance of a Michael Jackson video. 

[jdean]

I'm not condoning it, but it seems to be the norm.  The problem is the networks infatuation with showing the coach's every pick, grab, adjustment and outburst.  Isn't the game played on the field? 

Cardinal Alum:

I said he had "one of the foulest mouths", not the foulest nor the only one who has a limited vocabulary.

The attitude you describe as this being the norm is what riles me the most. Why should we accept this behavior as the norm? Why is it acceptable in football--because all the players are male and its a very physical game?
Lets not try to blame the messenger for this one. They showed Tressel several times and I don't recall any profanity laced tirades from him. Weis is an excellent coach--he doesn't need to use profanity to get his point across. I'm no religious nut nor a prude but I know a college would not accept his language in a Biology or Accounting classroom so it shouldn't pass muster
with his football students.

[79jaybird]

CardinalAlum-- Well said,  Lloyd Carr is one who swears constantly if/when he doesn't agree with the ref's call.  Conversely, I NEVER heard Paul Krohn swear on the field, at us in meetings, or any one of his coaching staff.  He would voice his displeasure/anger in a calmer, no profanity way.  In fact, I heard more profanities in HS than in College.

[79jaybird]

usee-- one other thing.  My fb coach in HS always said, "Winners want their name called when the game is on the line".  My fb coach was Jim Nudera, who was an Assistant at Michigan St. and prior to Prospect, Coached at Marist HS.
If the game was on the line and we needed a big play, Nudera would always have his top warriors in the clutch.
Case in point, Texas did what they had to do, and proved to be the better team when the final whistle blew.  Fitting end to a great College Football Season.  Can the CCIW start tomorrow?    I'm suffering from football withdrawal.

[augiedogie]

I agree that Bush's numbers can look skewed if you take out the kick return yards or if you take away a long pass reception or a long run (there are many people who's numbers would be skewed if you did that), the point I was trying to make is Young and Leinart get huge numbers because they don't have to split time like Bush does.  Imagine if USC didn't have White in the backfield half the time. Bush wouldn't have double the total amount of yards, but it is quite possible he could have averaged 400 yard of offense a game (including return yards) which is unheard even for a qb.

[CardinalAlum]

They showed Tressel several times and I don't recall any profanity laced tirades from him. 

Of course not, other than the first score of the game, his team was in control most of the way!!