FB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[Mr. Ypsi]

Gregory:

Semantics, it is (to a degree).  I never said nor implied that a coach who is inadequate in the recruiting department is neither a good coach nor a great one.  Our coach(es) are very good recruiters and your statements about the "bar" and recruiting limitations we agree.  However, subsequently the latter absolutely does not translate into a coach "failing in his primary task in failing to procure players that will enable him to win ball games." We'll obviously continue to disagree on that specific point.

True, although I'm not sure how to wade through what may or may not be an intentional double (or triple!) negative in your second sentence to get to your intent.

As to the your responses to my discussion about Hope's decline, just because we've returned to a winning record doesn't also translate to improved talent level overall.

Right. I've already implied that by saying that Hope's fortunes on the football field take place within the overall context of the MIAA, which means that what the other six programs are currently encountering in terms of recruiting ups and downs affects Hope's performance as well. Again, I'm willing to sign on to your stipulation that the three recent successful seasons featured rosters that are just as subpar (compared to Hope's traditional talent level) as were the three lean years before them. But, again, that invokes the context issue. If the Dutch have improved that dramatically in terms of wins and losses without actually improving in terms of talent, then what does that say about the other six programs in the MIAA?

You are over-reaching on my point to a degree in the overall picture,

I don't see how. Wins and losses are a pretty cut-and-dried measure of success. The fact that, in a league context, they are relative measures of success*, doesn't change that.

but I'm glad to see you accept my word on how the present talent compares with years ago

Well, you've been first a Hope player and then a Hope fan for a long time, while I've watched a grand total of one football game that involved your alma mater. So I'd be pretty foolish to challenge you on that point, wouldn't I?

(particularly when many of your colleagues continue to point out how weak the MIAA is compared to other DIII conferences-and, of course, they are right-I do agree with that.

Given how craptastic the CCIW has performed to date in non-conference play this season, I don't think that any of the regular posters here will be shooting spitwads at the MIAA anytime soon.

The MIAA has slipped since Albion's 1994 Stagg Bowl national title and certainly the face of DIII football has changed much over those past two decades.

And finally, I think you know what emma17' meant regarding his comment about the head coach. Certainly, at some places that is true to a degree, albeit small.  I also don't think anyone implied that assistants get off the hook in recruiting.  Even part-time volunteer assistants at most DIII schools are assigned those responsibilities.

I wasn't saying that anyone had implied that assistants have no recruiting responsibilities. I just thought that it was important to state for the record that assistant coaches play a part in football recruiting, too. Ultimately, however, recruiting is the head coach's responsibility -- not just because he's typically the one who is called upon to seal the deal with a prospect, but because he's the one with the old Harry Truman "The buck stops here" sign on his desk, even if it's only a metaphorical sign. Administration is a big part of a head coach's job, and part of what makes a coach a good administrator is his ability to bring assistant coaches into his program whom he feels confident in presenting as his program's representatives (and as his personal proxy) when they contact a prospect and his family.

Anyway, I think everyone here has made their points clear throughout this discussion, even if some of us disagree.  I'm done-it's time to move on to another topic. Where's that dead horse photo you guys use when we need it? !!         

Because it never gets old, here it is:



*This is the cue for Augustana and North Central fans who may be growing bored by all this Hope College talk to start arguing about which string of CCIW champions was the better one, Augie's in the '80s or NCC's in the present day. Have at it, boys.

Of course, I will take NCC's string of championships and argue that it is much more difficult to win in today's competitive environment.  More schools have spent lots of money on facilities, recruiting etc. But, even I have to admit that it is difficult to look past those four big door stops that Augie picked up in the 80's.  But if you focus solely on CCIW championships----NCC by far!

Um, I can't find the stats on CCIW.org, but I strongly suggest that CCIW titles go first to Augie, second to IWU, third to Wheaton, and fourth to either NCC or Milikin.

And so far neither UMU or UWW has matched the four straight Stagg Bowls of Augie.  What I find most amazing is that future NFL MVP Ken Anderson played at Augie TEN years before their run!

[kiko]

My loyalties gravitate to the Avians rather than to those who steal yer wimmen and drink yer beer... but I can't go with the Cards in this debate.  CCIW titles + doorstops >>> CCIW titles alone.

[AndOne]

I've gotten a few inquires as to the possibility of construction in close proximity to Benedetti-Wehrli Stadium at NCC, and whether said construction will cause any problems with parking or pedestrian access to the venue.
The answer to the first part of the question is yes. While the stadium itself is untouched, there is a huge project underway adjacent to the NE corner of the stadium, just across the driveway, and immediately south of the existing Patterson and Ward Halls.

http://www.dailyherald.com/article/20140925/news/140928916/

While City Council approval has evidently yet to be formally secured, construction is none the less definitely already underway with a great deal of excavation finished. This has resulted in the creation of Mount NCC, a rather tall pile of dirt from the digging. Hopefully, we won't have a monsoon before the mountain is flattened.

The answer to the second part of the question is no. A small parking area across from the west end of Merner Fieldhouse has been converted to a construction staging area, but that lot was not used for football visiting fan parking anyway. Also, a low, plastic sheet type fence has been erected around the perimeter of the project to contain any material or possible mud run-off from the sides of Mt. NCC, so long as it may exist.

This new dorm is part of a flurry of new construction on the NCC campus, following the recent Res/Rec Center opening, and preceding building of a new science center which will begin early next summer.

[iwu70]

Point beats NCC 34-27. 

[02 Warhawk]

So here is my new top 10:

1. NCC
2. Nobody
3. Nobody
4. NCC JV team
5. Nobody
6. Nobody
7. Tie: UMU/UWW (with a slight edge to UMU for playing NCC tough)
9. Nobody
10. Nobody

Can't wait to see your new top 10 after today.

[Augie6]

*This is the cue for Augustana and North Central fans who may be growing bored by all this Hope College talk to start arguing about which string of CCIW champions was the better one, Augie's in the '80s or NCC's in the present day. Have at it, boys.
[/quote]


Of course, I will take NCC's string of championships and argue that it is much more difficult to win in today's competitive environment.  More schools have spent lots of money on facilities, recruiting etc. But, even I have to admit that it is difficult to look past those four big door stops that Augie picked up in the 80's.  But if you focus solely on CCIW championships----NCC by far!
[/quote)

Obviously, I'm biased, but there's not much of a debate here.  I certainly don't think that focusing solely on CCIW championships gives NCC an edge "by far".  In fact, I think Augie clearly has the edge when looking at the CCIW championship runs.  In the 80's, Augie won 8 straight with 1 co-championship and a 62-1-1 record in the CCIW.  In NCC's current run of 8, there are 4 co-championships and a CCIW record of 52-4.  Are they different era's, sure, but I don't really see where spending money on facilities, recruiting, etc. has much to do with how difficult it is to do this both in the 80's and now.  I can tell you that when I played at Augie, our facilities were among the worst in the CCIW and we still managed to succeed.  Also, the CCIW was a strong conference back then as Millikin was ranked in the top ten in the nation several years during our run, Elmhurst had a very good team in 83 and was the among the national leaders in offensive yards per game (Elmhurst, Wheaton and Augie were ranked 1-3 in the nation that year, but I don't remember the exact order). and Wheaton was very solid during our run.  Once you start comparing success in the playoffs during these runs by both teams, there really is no comparison.

[Gregory Sager]

Um, I can't find the stats on CCIW.org, but I strongly suggest that CCIW titles go first to Augie, second to IWU, third to Wheaton, and fourth to either NCC or Milikin.

Augustana: 21
Wheaton: 16
Illinois Wesleyan: 14
Millikin: 11
North Central: 11
Carthage: 9
Elmhurst: 3
Lake Forest: 2
Carroll: 2
North Park: 0
Illlinois College: 0

And so far neither UMU or UWW has matched the four straight Stagg Bowls of Augie.  What I find most amazing is that future NFL MVP Ken Anderson played at Augie TEN years before their run!

It was actually closer to a decade and a half. He graduated from Augie in '70, and the Walnut & Bronze streak was from '83 thru '86.

[bleedpurple]

So here is my new top 10:

1. NCC
2. Nobody
3. Nobody
4. NCC JV team
5. Nobody
6. Nobody
7. Tie: UMU/UWW (with a slight edge to UMU for playing NCC tough)
9. Nobody
10. Nobody

Can't wait to see your new top 10 after today.

My guess is that the NCC JV team rises to #1. Or did they lose to a mid-level WIAC team, too?

[Mr. Ypsi]

So here is my new top 10:

1. NCC
2. Nobody
3. Nobody
4. NCC JV team
5. Nobody
6. Nobody
7. Tie: UMU/UWW (with a slight edge to UMU for playing NCC tough)
9. Nobody
10. Nobody

Can't wait to see your new top 10 after today.

My guess is that the NCC JV team rises to #1. Or did they lose to a mid-level WIAC team, too?

Not at all sure that UWSP is a mid-level WIAC team.  They should be 5-0 when they travel to Platt; if they win there, they should be 8-0 when they visit your fair city.

[Gregory Sager]

Millikin beat Aurora, 30-9, despite being outgained 311-263, out-first-downed by two, and having the ball seven fewer minutes than the Spartans. The Big Blue won with special teams and defense, as three of MU's touchdowns came courtesy of a 97-yard kickoff return, a blocked punt recovered in the end zone, and a recovered and returned AU fumble.

[USee]

I would be very surprised if UWSP loses to Platteville.  I put the UWEC v Platteville game as a toss up.

[Gregory Sager]

Carthage comes from behind in the fourth quarter to beat Lakeland, 21-14, at Keller Field. Not very artistic, but a win's a win.

The CCIW ends regular-season non-conference play with a 12-12 mark. I wonder how long it's been since the CCIW failed to post a winning non-con record.

[bleedpurple]

So here is my new top 10:

1. NCC
2. Nobody
3. Nobody
4. NCC JV team
5. Nobody
6. Nobody
7. Tie: UMU/UWW (with a slight edge to UMU for playing NCC tough)
9. Nobody
10. Nobody

Can't wait to see your new top 10 after today.

My guess is that the NCC JV team rises to #1. Or did they lose to a mid-level WIAC team, too?

Not at all sure that UWSP is a mid-level WIAC team.  They should be 5-0 when they travel to Platt; if they win there, they should be 8-0 when they visit your fair city.

And if that happens, I agree with you 100%. Until it does they are left with last year's 3-4 conference mark by which they will be judged in WIAC land. Nice win for them today and they did the WIAC proud. But you don't jump from 3-4 to top two WIAC team based on non-conference games. I hope you are right, though. That would be a fun Saturday if that came to pass!

[CardinalAlum]

Not a great day for the Cards.   Serious issues at QB right now.    Warden makes too many costly mistakes.   Not the way you want to head into conference play.   

[kiko]

UW-Stevens Point 34, North Central 27

This was a bad loss for the Cards, obviously, but mostly so IMO because the egg North Central laid today amounted to a significant regression from the progress the team has made in the past couple of years in inching closer to the D3 elite.  The team we saw today was a far cry from the one that ripped through Albion, Platteville and Bethel in last year's playoffs.  The game was ultimately decided in the final minutes only because the Pointers gifted the Cardinals a second life on a play when they should have gone up by 17.

Give full credit to Point for sticking it to the Cards today.  They outplayed and outcoached their CCIW foe, and fully deserved the homecoming win.  Perhaps the biggest concern is the number of questions raised today about the Cards quarterback situation.  Warden was... not good.  He hit his first three, including a nice TD to Peter Sorensen, and then was just 3 for his next 13 with three picks before being pulled for Tyler Dicken.  (Actually, he was pulled once in that sequence, but Dicken threw a pick of his own on his first attempt, so the Cards reverted back to Warden for a bit before finishing up with Dicken.)  Beyond his passing output, Warden seemed to have happy feet a bit in the pocket, dropping back but then pulling the ball down and running on several occasions before the play really had much time to develop.  Dicken was not much better, completing just 3 of 10 for 56 yards and the pick.

Ryan Kent had a strong afternoon with a 107 yard rushing output that included a 48-yard rumble for a second-quarter score.  But even though Kent showed some success, his number was called just 12 times on an afternoon when the Cards struggled to get into any sort of rhythm.

It was hard to know what to make of the North Central defense; they had their moments and were constantly defending a short field following the turnovers.  But Point put together a long drive at a key juncture in the third quarter, and had nearly 400 yards of offense on the day.

The Cards' early score in the second half gave them a 24-16 lead, but Point responded with a 13 play, 6-plus minute drive, then successfully went for two to tie the game.  The Cards' next possession ended in a pick, and Point took advantage of the short field to punch in the go-ahead touchdown and take a 31-24 lead.

North Central responded with a modest drive, and on 4th and 1 from the Point 35, elected to keep the offense on the field.  But the play call inexplicably IMO was for a quick screen to Sorensen rather than using their ground game to push for the yard they needed.  The pass fell incomplete and Stevens Point took over on downs.  They pushed into the red zone before settling for a field goal and a 10-point lead.

That sequence -- Point TD, Cardinal turnover, Point TD, Cardinals turn it over on downs, Point FG -- was where Point cemented the win.  They later looked to go up 17 but their RB fumbled just as he was diving into the endzone; the Cardinals converted that turnover into a FG that cut the margin to 7.

North Central got the ball back and drove to the Point 14 before successive sacks left them in a 4th and 22 from the 26 with just over three minutes to play.  North Central elected to bypass the 43 yard FG attempt, and turned it over on downs following an incomplete pass.  They were somewhat between a rock and a hard place, as their choices were converting a loooooong fourth down play or attempting a field goal that, even if successful, would have left them needing to get the ball back and score a touchdown in the final three minutes.  It felt a little premature, and a choice with very long odds of success, particularly given the Cards' QB play to this point in the contest, to keep the offense on the field.  The Cards actually got the ball back with 2:42 left after Point showed some really poor clock management, but that final gasp drive fizzled out before it really got started.

I have no idea how far the Cards will fall in the poll, and personally don't care.  Because if today was indicative of what we'll see in the CCIW slate, there is a second loss waiting to happen.  There is much to work on in the days ahead.