FB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[Pat Coleman]

I thought this discussion would sort itself out but apparently not.

There's a difference between "a championship game" and "the championship game."

Using "a championship game" is shorthand for "a championship-level game" or "a game between two champion-quality teams."
Saying "the championship game" is shorthand for "the one and only game to decide this championship."

Hope that helps. This has been in the sports vernacular for probably a decade or so.

[USee]

Coach Mike Swider gave a special thanks to D3.Com writer Ryan Tipps for his comments in Triple Take on Friday. Ryan said the following:

Ryan's take: No. 12 North Central at No. 19 Wheaton. In the ATN Podcast this past week, there was some talk about how Wheaton has dispelled some of its early-season hiccups and shown that it truly is a Top 25 team. Sorry Thunder fans, but I'm not yet convinced. The conference slate so far has consisted of the bottom three CCIW teams, and two of the nonconference opponents currently have a combined record of 1-11. That means two things: 1) I don't know that Wheaton is ready to face a North Central team that became battle-tested in nonconference play (though the Cardinals' CCIW games have also been against a weak slate); and 2) a loss here by Wheaton, coupled with that nonconference schedule, could mean that the team lacks the strength of schedule to be a real Pool C contender. For North Central, a loss Saturday would be its second of the year, also creating a gray area on the Pool C front. Perhaps the playoffs are in the back of these players' minds – or perhaps just the fact that it's the Little Brass Bell rivalry game is motivation enough

Swider's "Thank You" can be viewed on the replay found at about the 3:43 mark of the video here:

http://portal.stretchinternet.com/wheaton/full.htm?eventId=164324&streamType=video

[Gregory Sager]

Couldn't agree more. Last year Coach Swider brought the Bell out to Coach Thorne for the handshake but Thorson making a beeline to the NCC sideline to take the Bell away wasn't the greatest way to cap off an absolutely incredible football game.

Back in 1996 when DePauw won the Monon Bell for the first time in a long time, their team did the same sort of sprint, crash through the sideline kind of thing that helped incite a pretty nasty brawl involving players, fans...pretty much anybody who was in the area (which was everybody).   Glad there wasn't anything extra happening when Thorson and some teammates stormed through there.  After that little incident, we came up with some protocol for trophy transitions.  I'd rather we not have that kind of protocol because that kind of spontaneous excitement after  big rivalry win is fun...until it isn't.  Don't ever cross that line.   

Legend has it this goes back to the win in Naperville in 2012. In previous years Swider has brought the bell out at the handshake after a loss. In 2012 Thorne came across the field without the bell and when Swider asked where it was, Thorne said he would get it to him. Swider said something to the effect of "Don't worry we'll go get it" and sent his captains into the NCC bench to retrieve the bell. 

I agree a post game protocol should be instituted.

Couldn't agree more.  While there was obvious joy and exuberance on the Wheaton side, I certainly can understand how this didn't sit well on the NCC side.

I watched the fourth quarter of the NCC @ WC game last night, and I didn't see a single NCC player or coach react poorly to what Thorson did. Nor would I have expected any of them to react poorly; the Cardinals are a reflection of their head coach, and that means that they generally comport themselves in a classy and sportsmanlike manner.

Moreover, I haven't seen a single NCC fan complain here about what Thorson did. So I think that your statement about how this "didn't sit well on the NCC side" is an attempt to read minds at best, because nobody's shown that it "didn't sit well" with them.

I thought this discussion would sort itself out but apparently not.

There's a difference between "a championship game" and "the championship game."

Using "a championship game" is shorthand for "a championship-level game" or "a game between two champion-quality teams."
Saying "the championship game" is shorthand for "the one and only game to decide this championship."

Hope that helps. This has been in the sports vernacular for probably a decade or so.

I can't remember if Wheaton PBP announcer Rusty Lindsay used the indefinite article or the definite article last night, and I don't really want to watch the end of the game again to find out if I can distinguish him saying either "a championship game" or "the championship game."

The commentator on the Wheaton broadcast called tonight's tilt in DuPage County a "championship game." I guess the Wheaton AD doesn't need to bother signing the invoice for theIr charter bus next Saturday.

What would you expect a biased commentator to say?  And do you honestly think that is the way the Wheaton staff will approach the game?  Gimme a break.

Well, as one who certainly knows his way around a biased broadcast, I would definitely expect a partisan perspective, but with a balance of respect for the league. Whether it was ignorance or arrogance, or just plain homer-ism, and Crusader shades on or not, it definitely ruffled my feathers, especially considering EC's recent successful run at home v. Swider's squad.

Honestly, as I think a little more deeply about my irratation with the preemptive declaration, its not so much that a Wheaton apologist is crowning the Thunder on a webacst in week 7, but I am definitely projecting my frustration. As a pro-EC poster, I am most definitely all in on the Jays all the time - but repectful, never tearing down another program - an informed fan being a fan. Its incredibly difficult here to support my program, to be a fan on a fans chatboard - I feel like a have thoughtful, well presented takes on Bluejay football that do not degrade other teams in the process - I just hope there's space here for that voice.

As a player, I took it in the teeth for years in this conference, winning just 8 games in my 4 letter winning seasons on a very bad Jays squad.  As a coach, I was a part of the rise up to the middle of the conference, working through some up and down seasons. And as a broadcaster, I called the best of the Jays recent run, and witnessed a program rise to finish as one of the 16 best in the country in 2012.  My point is - I love d3 ball, I love this conference, and I love my Jays - and I have earned so much respect for the coaches, players, and programs in the cciw through 3 different lenses over the last 18 years. If my exuberance for bluejay football is ever mis-interpreted as anything other than  educated passion, then I am not presenting myself the way I woild hope for. Just love my Jays and love this conference we all support, and this place is really the only meeting ground to share that passion. My apologies if it comes off any other way.

As for next Saturday - still a few conference possibilities to shake out. If Wheaton takes care of of business on the road, they would control their path to the cciw crown, having defeated the two late season challengers.  Should EC bring another spirited effort at home and work some of that Langhorst mojo Saturday for the W, now suddenly NCC is back in the conversation with a possible chance to three-way the title by beating EC (same scenario as 2012).  Not sure how that might shake out, but with the schedule lined up the way it did,  its definitely exciting to have my Jays in the conversation in November.

Langhorst,

You are way, way over-reacting. Last night was absolutely a championship game. Two undefeated teams playing for the top spot. That is in no way demeaning to Elmhurst. Certainly not "ignorance, arrogance, or homer-ism". There are no 3 team jamborees in the CCIW. You gotta play everybody. Last night was 2 of the three undefeated teams playing. This week the Jays get their chance. Your effort at bulletin board material is far fetched at best. And your claim of "pre-emptive declaration" is just wrong. IWU70 called NCC the 8-time champion in his post. You should be much more offended by the slight to Elmhurst's 2012 co-championship than any description last night of a "championship game". No one got crowned last night but winning that game gave the victor the inside track. It wouldn't have been any different if it was Elmhurst v NCC last night. This week  is a championship game for Elmhurst and Wheaton. Does that offend NCC? Of course not. As a player you have to look at the games against the top teams as championship games. If you knock of the guy on top of the hill, you are king until someone knocks you off. Last night the Thunder knocked of the 8 time champ/co-champs. It had the look and feel of a championship game. 1 turnover, very few penalties. Two heavy weights going toe-to-toe. Now the Jays get to step up to the plate and see if they are ready to reclaim the magic they had in 2012.

Drink your kool-aid and wear your  Blue Jay glasses, but don't make misguided accusations of "ignorance, arrogance or just plain homer-ism".

You've said this twice now, and, well, you have a funny definition of what a championship game is.  Last night was an important game in determining how everything shakes out this year, but to call it a championship game really devalues what that actually is.  Last night could end up being a game between the second- and third-place teams in the conference.  I doubt that's the case, but it is possible.  And a game between #2 and #3 is by definition not a championship game.

I understand USee's intent, in that last night was basically a win-or-go-home game for both North Central and Wheaton with respect to the playoffs. As he said, a loss for either team ends that team's postseason dreams, more or less (although I still think that either team had a sliver of daylight left after a loss, and we know that NCC has had a three-way tie work in its favor in the past with regard to the CCIW's Pool A berth). And I also understand Pat's helpful attempt to parse the difference in preceding articles of speech when talking about championship games.

But I agree with kiko that a win-or-go-home game is not the same thing as a championship game, unless you're using the broader and less-used definition of a championship game as "one of the games along the designated road to winning a championship." Since in that sense a first-round playoff game could also be described as "a championship game," since it's a part of the D3 football championship playoffs, few people ever use it that way.

Championship games, in common parlance, are end-of-season contests in which the winner takes all the spoils -- everybody's spoils, including the teams that aren't actually participating in the game, a la the Stagg Bowl or the Big Ten Football Championship Game between the East and West division winners at Lucas Oil Stadium for the Stagg Conference Trophy. Wheaton did not take all the spoils last night; it did take home the Little Brass Bell, but that rivalry trophy has absolutely nothing to do with either the D3 playoffs or the CCIW title. You simply cannot have a true championship game, even a metaphorical one, when there are three remaining undefeated teams, not to mention three more weeks' worth of relevant league games after it.

Having said that, I agree with USee that Rusty Lindsay wasn't guilty of "ignorance, arrogance, or homerism" or of making a "pre-emptive declaration" in putting the "championship game" tag on last night's contest. I think that he was simply a bit inaccurate.

[kiko]

Kiko

I think I have been pretty clear what I meant.

I understand exactly what you meant.  I happen to disagree with this framing.

I thought this discussion would sort itself out but apparently not.

There's a difference between "a championship game" and "the championship game."

Using "a championship game" is shorthand for "a championship-level game" or "a game between two champion-quality teams."
Saying "the championship game" is shorthand for "the one and only game to decide this championship."

Hope that helps. This has been in the sports vernacular for probably a decade or so.

I get that this has been the default language for some time.  But with all due respect, it's lazy language.  It devalues real championship games and drags us toward scenarios where teams that don't really sniff a championship can say they played for one.  If North Central loses to Elmhurst, or somehow falls to IWU's eighth-string quarterback, then calling their game against Wheaton a championship game will IMO look rather silly in retrospect.

Nobody won a championship, outside of the LBB, in the game last night.  It was an important regular season game that may or may not decide the title.

[Gregory Sager]

The commentator on the Wheaton broadcast called tonight's tilt in DuPage County a "championship game." I guess the Wheaton AD doesn't need to bother signing the invoice for theIr charter bus next Saturday.

What would you expect a biased commentator to say?  And do you honestly think that is the way the Wheaton staff will approach the game?  Gimme a break.

Well, as one who certainly knows his way around a biased broadcast, I would definitely expect a partisan perspective, but with a balance of respect for the league. Whether it was ignorance or arrogance, or just plain homer-ism, and Crusader shades on or not, it definitely ruffled my feathers, especially considering EC's recent successful run at home v. Swider's squad.

Honestly, as I think a little more deeply about my irratation with the preemptive declaration, its not so much that a Wheaton apologist is crowning the Thunder on a webacst in week 7, but I am definitely projecting my frustration. As a pro-EC poster, I am most definitely all in on the Jays all the time - but repectful, never tearing down another program - an informed fan being a fan. Its incredibly difficult here to support my program, to be a fan on a fans chatboard - I feel like a have thoughtful, well presented takes on Bluejay football that do not degrade other teams in the process - I just hope there's space here for that voice.

As a player, I took it in the teeth for years in this conference, winning just 8 games in my 4 letter winning seasons on a very bad Jays squad.  As a coach, I was a part of the rise up to the middle of the conference, working through some up and down seasons. And as a broadcaster, I called the best of the Jays recent run, and witnessed a program rise to finish as one of the 16 best in the country in 2012.  My point is - I love d3 ball, I love this conference, and I love my Jays - and I have earned so much respect for the coaches, players, and programs in the cciw through 3 different lenses over the last 18 years. If my exuberance for bluejay football is ever mis-interpreted as anything other than  educated passion, then I am not presenting myself the way I woild hope for. Just love my Jays and love this conference we all support, and this place is really the only meeting ground to share that passion. My apologies if it comes off any other way.

As for next Saturday - still a few conference possibilities to shake out. If Wheaton takes care of of business on the road, they would control their path to the cciw crown, having defeated the two late season challengers.  Should EC bring another spirited effort at home and work some of that Langhorst mojo Saturday for the W, now suddenly NCC is back in the conversation with a possible chance to three-way the title by beating EC (same scenario as 2012).  Not sure how that might shake out, but with the schedule lined up the way it did,  its definitely exciting to have my Jays in the conversation in November.

For what it's worth, which is practically nothing, I will be fervently rooting for Elmhurst next Saturday. That's partly out of a natural inclination to cheer for the underdog, partly out of curiosity to see what would happen if someone overturned the applecart and mixed up the playoff picture, and -- well, let's be honest, Elmhurst is playing Wheaton, and, as a North Park alumnus, rooting against Wheaton is practically encoded in my DNA.

You and I have had our disagreements, Ghost, but yours is a necessary and valuable voice here. This room is filled with NCC and Wheaton fans. The other schools need to be repped here as well, and you both know the game and are close to the EC program. Don't be bullied either by numbers when it comes to other schools' fans or by the success of those other schools.

Having said that, I will reiterate what I said here earlier this week, which is that I don't think Elmhurst is good enough to hang with either Wheaton or North Central this season. I'd love to be proven wrong on this score, particularly next Saturday, but I doubt it'll happen.

[Gregory Sager]

North Park 26
Millikin 7

T.D. Conway: 29-53, 325 yds, 4 tds, 1 int
Drew Walkington: 17 carries, 92 yds
Filo Langkilde: 11 carries, 73 yds
Devin Childress: 8 catches, 114 yds, 2 tds
Dakota Conway: 8 catches, 44 yds, 1 td
Anthony Burton: 6 catches, 89 yds, 1 td

Tony Pippin: 21-47, 170 yds, 1 td, 1 int
Brady Cufaude: 8 catches, 77 yds, 1 td

This was the breakout game that Vikings fans were waiting for. The Park was totally dominant today, racking up 529 yards of offense and 31 first downs to MU's 284 and 15. In fact, the one tarnish on the game was the fact that NPU's final score was so low. The Vikings should've scored in the forties today, if not the fifties, as they came up empty five times in the red zone (they were also in the red zone when the game ended on a kneeldown). Three times the Vikings turned the ball over on downs in the red zone (once when they had the ball on the one-foot line and T.D. Conway had the ball snapped over his head on fourth down), a fourth trip came up empty when they missed a 25-yard FG attempt, and on a fifth trip to the money end of the field Conway was picked off on one of the very few bad balls he threw all day.

Considering that he was saddled with having three of his first four passes dropped by his receivers, T.D. Conway ended up having a terrific day. He even made things happen with his feet, something you don't see every day from a 6'4, 220 quarterback; in the first quarter, with the Vikings backed up to their own one-yard line he ran a simple sneak play for 13 yards, starting a 75-yard drive that completely flipped field position. And in the fourth quarter he converted a 4th and 1 by faking a handoff to Filo Langkilde and rambling 15 yards. Perhaps this quote:

His QB sneak is practically unstoppable.

... should be applied to T.D. Conway rather than Johnny Peltz.

It feels churlish to complain about all of NPU's blown red-zone opportunities, because it never felt as though Millikin was going to make NPU pay for them. The Vikings D was very stingy all day, and they were bringing the hits as well. It was definitely the best performance I've seen yet from a Mike Conway defense. The Big Blue were just never really in the game at all.

As much as I griped about NPU holding Homecoming so late this year, it turned out to be a fantastic day weatherwise. The stands were packed, the crowd was pumped, and the Vikings broke out the North Park haka (created and choreographed by the team's Samoan contingent) for the first time in public. In fact, after the game they reprised the haka, to the delight of the crowd. Everybody's got a fight song, but how many college football teams (aside from perhaps the University of Hawaii) have a haka?

Sure feels great to finally get that first win.

Haka can be seen here:  http://athletics.northpark.edu/news/2014/10/25/FB_1025141746.aspx?path=football

Looks like they are having fun with it.

And, since we're talking about postgame player exuberance in connection to Thorson's mad dash through the NCC sideline to grab the LBB last night, one of the reasons why I mentioned the haka yesterday was to educate. Some programs have their players walk over to the stands and sing the school fight song after a win (as NPU did; the Vikings used to sing "Hail to the Varsity" after wins during the Pethtel era). That's not really considered to be out of line in terms of sportsmanship, because it's not a rubbing-it-in gesture. The same thing goes with the haka. The haka is a culturally-specific and deeply personal thing that has been embraced by the non-Samoan football players (and coaches) at NPU, as well as by the Samoan players who designed it. It's not meant to be any sort of a gloat. Even more than a school fight song, it's an expression of who those guys are, and I hope that it was interpreted that way by the Millikin folks yesterday (and by any future opposing players, coaches, and fans who happen to see it when their team plays NPU).

[Pat Coleman]

Coach Mike Swider gave a special thanks to D3.Com writer Ryan Tipps for his comments in Triple Take on Friday. Ryan said the following:

Ryan's take: No. 12 North Central at No. 19 Wheaton. In the ATN Podcast this past week, there was some talk about how Wheaton has dispelled some of its early-season hiccups and shown that it truly is a Top 25 team. Sorry Thunder fans, but I'm not yet convinced. The conference slate so far has consisted of the bottom three CCIW teams, and two of the nonconference opponents currently have a combined record of 1-11. That means two things: 1) I don't know that Wheaton is ready to face a North Central team that became battle-tested in nonconference play (though the Cardinals' CCIW games have also been against a weak slate); and 2) a loss here by Wheaton, coupled with that nonconference schedule, could mean that the team lacks the strength of schedule to be a real Pool C contender. For North Central, a loss Saturday would be its second of the year, also creating a gray area on the Pool C front. Perhaps the playoffs are in the back of these players' minds – or perhaps just the fact that it's the Little Brass Bell rivalry game is motivation enough

Swider's "Thank You" can be viewed on the replay found at about the 3:43 mark of the video here:

http://portal.stretchinternet.com/wheaton/full.htm?eventId=164324&streamType=video

Apparently Swider was really taken by this -- he also seemingly went out of his way to mention it in Around the Region this week. Glad someone is paying attention.

[USee]

Elmhurst has come a long way since their season opening loss at Loras. This is not the same BlueJay team. Elmhurst has found some offense with a powerful running game behind Josh Williams (144 yds per game, 5.4 yds per carry) and the gritty performance of senior QB Joe Camiliere ( 190 yds per game, 57%, 9 TD's 6 INT 122.5 eff). Against Loras, Elmhurst turned it over 6 times (3 INT and 4 fumbles) and were sacked 7 times while rushing for only 102 yds.  Against IWU they they turned it over 2 times and gave up zero sacks to John Worley and Co while rushing for 196 yds and coming back from an 11 pt 4th quarter deficit.

They are the #1 ranked defense in the CCIW (now that Wheaton and NCC beat each other up!) and the #3 ranked offense. Wheaton is #2 in both categories. The Jays are 60% run and Josh Williams is averaging over 25 carries a game.

Wheaton has struggled at Langhorst recently. Here are the results @Elmhurst going back to 2006:
2012: Elmhurst 35 Wheaton 30
2010 Wheaton 27 Elmhurst 24
2008 Elmhurst 37 Wheaton 23
2007 Wheaton 48 Elmhurst 7

Compare that to the 4 games @Wheaton over the same time period

2013 Wheaton 28 Elmhurst 3
2011 Wheaton 49 Elmhurst 21
2009 Wheaton 38 Elmhurst 7
2006 Wheaton 39 Elmhurst 0

[USee]

Coach Mike Swider gave a special thanks to D3.Com writer Ryan Tipps for his comments in Triple Take on Friday. Ryan said the following:

Ryan's take: No. 12 North Central at No. 19 Wheaton. In the ATN Podcast this past week, there was some talk about how Wheaton has dispelled some of its early-season hiccups and shown that it truly is a Top 25 team. Sorry Thunder fans, but I'm not yet convinced. The conference slate so far has consisted of the bottom three CCIW teams, and two of the nonconference opponents currently have a combined record of 1-11. That means two things: 1) I don't know that Wheaton is ready to face a North Central team that became battle-tested in nonconference play (though the Cardinals' CCIW games have also been against a weak slate); and 2) a loss here by Wheaton, coupled with that nonconference schedule, could mean that the team lacks the strength of schedule to be a real Pool C contender. For North Central, a loss Saturday would be its second of the year, also creating a gray area on the Pool C front. Perhaps the playoffs are in the back of these players' minds – or perhaps just the fact that it's the Little Brass Bell rivalry game is motivation enough

Swider's "Thank You" can be viewed on the replay found at about the 3:43 mark of the video here:

http://portal.stretchinternet.com/wheaton/full.htm?eventId=164324&streamType=video

Apparently Swider was really taken by this -- he also seemingly went out of his way to mention it in Around the Region this week. Glad someone is paying attention.

Genius advertising!

[Pat Coleman]

Guess so -- the guy who doesn't have the internet at home apparently read something on the internet. ::shrug:: Yep, great win, and we wouldn't treat it as anything less. Nor would we treat laying an egg in the second half at Augustana and escaping with a win as anything more than what it was, right?

[USee]

Guess so -- the guy who doesn't have the internet at home apparently read something on the internet. ::shrug:: Yep, great win, and we wouldn't treat it as anything less. Nor would we treat laying an egg in the second half at Augustana and escaping with a win as anything more than what it was, right?

Exactly!  Wheaton lulled them all to sleep.  Now if Elmhurst can just focus on their NCC game!

[Pat Coleman]

I'd say we started this season ranking Wheaton on potential, but eventually we had to rank them on what they were actually, you know, doing on the field.

[USee]

I'd say we started this season ranking Wheaton on potential, but eventually we had to rank them on what they were actually, you know, doing on the field.

I hope that methodology is reflected this week and going forward.

[D3MAFAN]

Coach Mike Swider gave a special thanks to D3.Com writer Ryan Tipps for his comments in Triple Take on Friday. Ryan said the following:

Ryan's take: No. 12 North Central at No. 19 Wheaton. In the ATN Podcast this past week, there was some talk about how Wheaton has dispelled some of its early-season hiccups and shown that it truly is a Top 25 team. Sorry Thunder fans, but I'm not yet convinced. The conference slate so far has consisted of the bottom three CCIW teams, and two of the nonconference opponents currently have a combined record of 1-11. That means two things: 1) I don't know that Wheaton is ready to face a North Central team that became battle-tested in nonconference play (though the Cardinals' CCIW games have also been against a weak slate); and 2) a loss here by Wheaton, coupled with that nonconference schedule, could mean that the team lacks the strength of schedule to be a real Pool C contender. For North Central, a loss Saturday would be its second of the year, also creating a gray area on the Pool C front. Perhaps the playoffs are in the back of these players' minds – or perhaps just the fact that it's the Little Brass Bell rivalry game is motivation enough

Swider's "Thank You" can be viewed on the replay found at about the 3:43 mark of the video here:

http://portal.stretchinternet.com/wheaton/full.htm?eventId=164324&streamType=video

Apparently Swider was really taken by this -- he also seemingly went out of his way to mention it in Around the Region this week. Glad someone is paying attention.

I agree, I think it is good for D3.com, any exposure is better than no exposure, plus I watch the game and it was a good one.

[USee]

Guess so -- the guy who doesn't have the internet at home apparently read something on the internet. ::shrug:: Yep, great win, and we wouldn't treat it as anything less. Nor would we treat laying an egg in the second half at Augustana and escaping with a win as anything more than what it was, right?

To be clear I totally understand the skepticism surrounding this years Wheaton team. Even the most diehard fans were wondering what was going on in the second half against Augie. 0 for the half passing and 35 yds rushing against what was a one win team. But this Wheaton team has evolved and played at a very high level against what I believe to be a top 15 team Saturday. They had Bowers at QB because at the time they made the decision, he was the best QB on the team. His injury paved the way for a focused effort on JP11 and the kid responded. That's what talented kids do. There are examples of this. Some kid named Kmic I remember made his freshman debut in the playoffs.

Wheaton has moved up to #13 in the rankings today and I think that's warranted. I think NCC will reappear in the top 15 before the season is out. If Wheaton can finish the deal over the next 3 weeks, it will be an improbable story line to whats been a fun season.