FB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[79jaybird]

Congratulations to all the AC picks and especially the Bluejay selections. I agree with almost all of the selections so generally, no complaints from me. 

[Pat Coleman]

This all may be changing though. As the Pool C bids shrink (almost certainly from 6 this year to 5 next year) it becomes really important to have a strong SOS. You can schedule Middle tier teams and hope for the best (a strategy that has helped Wheaton more than hurt them) or you can play tough teams and roll the dice.

We should still have six next year.

[izzy stradlin]

Congratulations to the all conference picks. I can only nitpick over a few selections all of these players are deserving. My biggest beef is having 15 players on the 2nd team. Just create 3 teams then. It's stupid to have three 2nd team QB's. Makes no sense at all. It makes the award far less meaningful in my opinion.

I was a bit surprised by the QB picks. JP11 played against 5 CCIW teams and beat two of those QB's head to head, outperforming them. I actually thought he had a chance at first team QB so i was surprised he got nothing. It may have been Mike Swider didn't nominate him because he didn't play there the whole year.

I'm not sure if the accolades are decided by a vote, but if they are, it is possible that there were three second-team QBs because there was a three-way tie.

Absent that, I agree that selecting three second-teamers instead of one seems silly.

They vote.  Tough to have a 3-way tie with 8 coaches voting.

Depends on the voting structure.

Yes it does and I don't think the CCIW's voting structure allows for a 3 way tie for 2nd team QB. They may have changed it but I am pretty sure that was a conspiracy more than a vote.

Why do you think it doesn't?   Three QBs got two votes each.  Two others got one vote.  There's your 8 votes.

[Gregory Sager]

My thoughts exactly, Izzy. Camiliere, Frasco, and Warden probably got two votes apiece, Peltz probably got one, and I'd guess that the other one went to Warner.

[USee]

I can't recall enough about the voting process to refute your speculation on how the vote works but i think its more complicated than that. I do know the coaches have to nominate players from their own teams and if their coach doesn't put them up, they won't get votes. And the coaches know if they put all their players up it will dilute the votes and they won't get the guys who truly deserve it. I think there is something about voting for the 1st team and the players who don't get first team are re-voted for first team initially and then other players are nominated for second team and then voted on.

Besides which, it doesn't matter because clearly the coaches decided that 15 2nd team players were ok and 3 QB's. I think that's a cop out. Basketball doesn't do it why should football? Pick the best players and let them shine.  There are tough choices so make the choices rather than just calling it a "tie" and letting everyone win. Seems a little like T-ball where they don't keep score. I don't like it. And Peltz put up over 1600 yds of offense in 5 games. The stats on the CCIW website averages it over 10 games because he appeared in all 10 games despite the fact he wasn't the QB until week 6. So his total offense is over 300 yds a game(with 67% completion rate and 1 INT on 11 TDs) which dwarfs every other QB's numbers. If Swider decided not to nominate him because he only played half the season (5-7 conference games) then so be it but I think he should have competed for the first team QB slot based on his numbers and despite his stub season. To name 4 QBs ahead of him (two of whom he outperformed HTH, and Bowers beat Conway HTH) doesn't pass my sniff test as  credible.

Like I said in an earlier post I am ok with the selections generally but I would have had Peltz on there and certainly not 15 players on the 2nd team.

[izzy stradlin]

It does happen in basketball.   There have been years with more than 5 on the 2nd team and years with more the 5 on the 3rd team.   I am sure coaches nominate players and there is a drop down process. But then you still have only have 8 votes and with limited options there are gonna be ties.  I really don't think the coaches are more sophisticated than that-- which is why they don't try to break the ties with something more complicated.

[Gregory Sager]

Besides which, it doesn't matter because clearly the coaches decided that 15 2nd team players were ok and 3 QB's. I think that's a cop out. Basketball doesn't do it why should football?

The CCIW basketball coaches do put extra players on the All-CCIW team in the event of a tie, USee. In fact, it happened just two seasons ago.

Pick the best players and let them shine.  There are tough choices so make the choices rather than just calling it a "tie" and letting everyone win. Seems a little like T-ball where they don't keep score. I don't like it. And Peltz put up over 1600 yds of offense in 5 games. The stats on the CCIW website averages it over 10 games because he appeared in all 10 games despite the fact he wasn't the QB until week 6. So his total offense is over 300 yds a game(with 67% completion rate and 1 INT on 11 TDs) which dwarfs every other QB's numbers.

Peltz's CCIW numbers are spread out over the seven league games in which he competed. His averaged numbers reflect that. The fact that he didn't throw any passes in some of those games, and thus didn't accumulate any counting stats in them as far as passing is concerned, reflects the fact that statistics aren't discrete by position. Since a running back can throw the ball, or a quarterback or wide receiver can run the football, offensive statistics are amassed in such a way that yardage averages are distributed on a per-game basis, rather than by which position said individual happens to line up at in any given game.

If Swider decided not to nominate him because he only played half the season (5-7 conference games) then so be it but I think he should have competed for the first team QB slot based on his numbers and despite his stub season. To name 4 QBs ahead of him (two of whom he outperformed HTH, and Bowers beat Conway HTH) doesn't pass my sniff test as  credible.

Maybe Swider nominated him, maybe he didn't. We have no way of knowing. As for awarding players based upon whose team beat whom, that's reductionistic and kind of silly. It ends up with Wheaton getting all the spots, because Wheaton beat everybody else -- or is that the whole idea here?

Like I said in an earlier post I am ok with the selections generally but I would have had Peltz on there and certainly not 15 players on the 2nd team.

I would've probably picked Peltz over Frasco myself. As for the 15 players on the second team, it really does seem to me that there was a tie involved.

[Gregory Sager]

I really don't think the coaches are more sophisticated than that-- which is why they don't try to break the ties with something more complicated.

Yep. I can almost guarantee that that's the case. Plus, you avoid the politics that can come into play in breaking ties.

[USee]

I usually check facts before making assertions and in this case I didn't. Apologies for the basketball reference and I stand corrected. I am sure Johnny Peltz was nominated. Any system that results in him, by default, the 5th best quarterback based on the numbers he put up is broken and driven by ulterior motives.

Greg,  I don't think the undefeated team wins all the AC battles by any means. But if North Central had won instead of Wheaton that is worth a couple more AC spots. And if first team all conference QB was between Warden and Peltz at the end, most coaches are going to vote for the winning QB in that matchup. So obviously the vote wasn't between Camiliere and Peltz or Warden and Peltz because he outperformed both those guys and if it was a vote between either of those two pairs, Petlz gets the nod.

If I took some truth serum and was asked to crown the AC QB's I would have had a tough time between Peltz and Warden for 1st team because Warden played pretty well in every conference game and Peltz only played in 5 of the 7. I would have made TD Conway the honorable mention qb or possibly 2nd team with Peltz/Warden because, in my view, he is hands down the most talented QB but had the worst season of those 3. But that's not how the system works and we are stuck with it.

[AndOne]

Besides which, it doesn't matter because clearly the coaches decided that 15 2nd team players were ok and 3 QB's. I think that's a cop out. Basketball doesn't do it why should football?

The CCIW basketball coaches do put extra players on the All-CCIW team in the event of a tie, USee. In fact, it happened just two seasons ago.

As well as in 2011, 2010, and 2007.

[izzy stradlin]

IMO from the NCC game on, Peltz was the best player in the conference. The problem is he didn't start for half of the season. My guess is that the coaches in the conference felt that they could either consider him for postseason awards (and likely make him 1st team AC and maybe MOP) or not and they chose the later.  I am actually fine with that and don't really think it makes sense to put him on the 2nd team. 

I like Sorenson as MOP (Swider even credited him with NCC's rushing success) and Conway as 1st team QB (does NP win any conference games without him?).  Peltz is only a sophomore and the league knows he is gonna be a favorite for MOP/All-Conference and maybe All-American lists in the next two years.  I think he is that good and especially with what Wheaton is gonna bring back. 

     

[USee]

IMO from the NCC game on, Peltz was the best player in the conference. The problem is he didn't start for half of the season. My guess is that the coaches in the conference felt that they could either consider him for postseason awards (and likely make him 1st team AC and maybe MOP) or not and they chose the later.  I am actually fine with that and don't really think it makes sense to put him on the 2nd team. 

I like Sorenson as MOP (Swider even credited him with NCC's rushing success) and Conway as 1st team QB (does NP win any conference games without him?).  Peltz is only a sophomore and the league knows he is gonna be a favorite for MOP/All-Conference and maybe All-American lists in the next two years.  I think he is that good and especially with what Wheaton is gonna bring back. 

     

I follow your logic and don't disagree. The problem is this is not the "All Season" awards. This is the All conference awards and he played 5 of 7 conference games and was the best player in the conference and second place isn't close. There are plenty of examples of players earning all conference awards who miss a conference game or two. Shoot, Danny Puknaitis was 2nd team RB for Wheaton and he never started a game this year. He played in every game, had fewer carries, yards per game, and total yards rushing in 10 games than JP11 had in 5 games! How does that make sense?

I should also clarify my comments about the Peltz, Warden, Conway comparison. TD Conway, in my opinion, did the least with the most individual talent. He is very smart QB with a great arm. Peltz and Warden are much better overall athletes and more complete offensive threats because of the their running ability. They are different styles completely. Conway carried NPU, both good and bad. Peltz vaulted Wheaton from a probable 2nd place finish and watching games this weekend to an undefeated season, 2 home games, top 10 ranking and some Thanksgiving madness in Thundertown.

The system is broken.

[USee]

Taking a look at Benedictine, they started the season 1-4 losing games v. Central 31-7, @Carroll 34-6, v Adrian 23-6 and @Wisc Lutheran 17-6. The one common opponent is Kalamazoo. Both teams played @Kzoo. BU won 16-14 while the Thunder won with a pre-Peltz offense 26-12. BU ran off 5 straight wins to end the season and snag the AQ for the NACC. They had a 3 way tie and had to win their final game v Lakeland by 15 pts to win the point differential tie breaker (sound familiar?) and they won 16-0. In their 6 wins they gave up 20 pts once and 14 pts is the next highest total with 2 shutouts. In their 4 losses they scored a total of 25 pts while giving up more than 30 pts just once.

Looking at the stats, BU relies on their defense. I think they will have a hard time scoring against this Wheaton D and if JP11 can generate some 5th best QB offense, Thundernation should be in good shape. 

[CardinalAlum]

Taking a look at Benedictine, they started the season 1-4 losing games v. Central 31-7, @Carroll 34-6, v Adrian 23-6 and @Wisc Lutheran 17-6. The one common opponent is Kalamazoo. Both teams played @Kzoo. BU won 16-14 while the Thunder won with a pre-Peltz offense 26-12. BU ran off 5 straight wins to end the season and snag the AQ for the NACC. They had a 3 way tie and had to win their final game v Lakeland by 15 pts to win the point differential tie breaker (sound familiar?) and they won 16-0. In their 6 wins they gave up 20 pts once and 14 pts is the next highest total with 2 shutouts. In their 4 losses they scored a total of 25 pts while giving up more than 30 pts just once.

Looking at the stats, BU relies on their defense. I think they will have a hard time scoring against this Wheaton D and if JP11 can generate some 5th best QB offense, Thundernation should be in good shape. 

Benedictine is playing this weekend while the Cards will be home.  The system stinks.  That conference, and others like it, will almost never win a playoff game in the near future.  I'm not going all Ypsi with my prediction, but I expect Wheaton to take care of business quickly.

[izzy stradlin]

IMO from the NCC game on, Peltz was the best player in the conference. The problem is he didn't start for half of the season. My guess is that the coaches in the conference felt that they could either consider him for postseason awards (and likely make him 1st team AC and maybe MOP) or not and they chose the later.  I am actually fine with that and don't really think it makes sense to put him on the 2nd team. 

I like Sorenson as MOP (Swider even credited him with NCC's rushing success) and Conway as 1st team QB (does NP win any conference games without him?).  Peltz is only a sophomore and the league knows he is gonna be a favorite for MOP/All-Conference and maybe All-American lists in the next two years.  I think he is that good and especially with what Wheaton is gonna bring back. 
     

I follow your logic and don't disagree. The problem is this is not the "All Season" awards. This is the All conference awards and he played 5 of 7 conference games and was the best player in the conference and second place isn't close. There are plenty of examples of players earning all conference awards who miss a conference game or two.

This is true.  Chad Bradley was 1st team AC QB in 2002 playing 5/7 conference games for Wheaton.  His numbers in those games weren't near as good as JP11's.