FB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[HScoach]

CardinalAlum:  I disagree the system is perfect.     The old days of a selection committee picking the 16 without an AQ is not somewhere we want to go to again.  The AQ could very well be the reason your team makes the field someday.

[USee]

CardinalAlum:  I disagree the system is perfect.     The old days of a selection committee picking the 16 without an AQ is not somewhere we want to go to again.  The AQ could very well be the reason your team makes the field someday.

It probably happened this year

[AndOne]

IMO from the NCC game on, Peltz was the best player in the conference. The problem is he didn't start for half of the season. My guess is that the coaches in the conference felt that they could either consider him for postseason awards (and likely make him 1st team AC and maybe MOP) or not and they chose the later.  I am actually fine with that and don't really think it makes sense to put him on the 2nd team. 

I like Sorenson as MOP (Swider even credited him with NCC's rushing success) and Conway as 1st team QB (does NP win any conference games without him?).  Peltz is only a sophomore and the league knows he is gonna be a favorite for MOP/All-Conference and maybe All-American lists in the next two years.  I think he is that good and especially with what Wheaton is gonna bring back. 

     

I follow your logic and don't disagree. The problem is this is not the "All Season" awards. This is the All conference awards and he played 5 of 7 conference games and was the best player in the conference and second place isn't close. There are plenty of examples of players earning all conference awards who miss a conference game or two. Shoot, Danny Puknaitis was 2nd team RB for Wheaton and he never started a game this year. He played in every game, had fewer carries, yards per game, and total yards rushing in 10 games than JP11 had in 5 games! How does that make sense?

I should also clarify my comments about the Peltz, Warden, Conway comparison. TD Conway, in my opinion, did the least with the most individual talent. He is very smart QB with a great arm. Peltz and Warden are much better overall athletes and more complete offensive threats because of the their running ability. They are different styles completely. Conway carried NPU, both good and bad. Peltz vaulted Wheaton from a probable 2nd place finish and watching games this weekend to an undefeated season, 2 home games, top 10 ranking and some Thanksgiving madness in Thundertown.

The system is broken.

USee,

Before you get too mad at me, I agree with you on two fronts:
1. Peltz should be somewhere on the all-conference team.
2. When there are only 8 teams in the league and you name QBs representing half of the league's teams it greatly cheapens the process. 3 QBs on the 2nd team is ridiculous. 2 might even be too many. If there is no process in place to break a tie vote, there ought to be.

However, while Peltz did do great things, I think its stretching things a bit to say that during the time he played he "was the best player in the conference, and 2nd place isn't close." Without going into great detail, I doubt you saw any player not wearing a Wheaton uniform play every game that any specific player participated in. Accordingly, you can't know how they preformed in those games. Yes, you can look at a list of stats, but they don't tell you things like the guy who had only 1 catch outfought 2 defenders or made a circus catch to pull in the game winning TD, or the guy who ran the ball in for the game winning TD from 12 yards out broke 6 tackles in those 12 yards. And, as far as the 2nd best player not even being close, it seems like at least 2 players were at least close--Peter Sorenson, the Offensive POY, and Peltz' own teammate Adan Dansdill, the Defensive POY.
I think both their awards were for the total 7 game conference portion of the season. 

[AndOne]

CardinalAlum:  I disagree the system is perfect.     The old days of a selection committee picking the 16 without an AQ is not somewhere we want to go to again.  The AQ could very well be the reason your team makes the field someday.

HScoach---

I enjoy many of your posts, and our thoughts are often solidly aligned.

However, I think your use of the word "someday" with regard to NCC making the playoff field, could have used some modifiers. It isn't like it hasn't happened before, and recently at that. You can look it up. 
Perhaps something like "again someday soon." 

[Pat Coleman]

I think your use of the word "someday" with regard to NCC making the playoff field, could have used some modifiers. It isn't like it hasn't happened before, and recently at that. You can look it up. 
Perhaps something like "again someday soon." 

I am pretty sure HSCoach meant it as such:

The AQ could very well be the reason your team makes the field someday. (As in the ONLY reason.)

[USee]

I think your use of the word "someday" with regard to NCC making the playoff field, could have used some modifiers. It isn't like it hasn't happened before, and recently at that. You can look it up. 
Perhaps something like "again someday soon." 

I am pretty sure HSCoach meant it as such:

The AQ could very well be the reason your team makes the field someday. (As in the ONLY reason.)

Agreed, to which I said that happened this year (to Wheaton)

[USee]

IMO from the NCC game on, Peltz was the best player in the conference. The problem is he didn't start for half of the season. My guess is that the coaches in the conference felt that they could either consider him for postseason awards (and likely make him 1st team AC and maybe MOP) or not and they chose the later.  I am actually fine with that and don't really think it makes sense to put him on the 2nd team. 

I like Sorenson as MOP (Swider even credited him with NCC's rushing success) and Conway as 1st team QB (does NP win any conference games without him?).  Peltz is only a sophomore and the league knows he is gonna be a favorite for MOP/All-Conference and maybe All-American lists in the next two years.  I think he is that good and especially with what Wheaton is gonna bring back. 

     

I follow your logic and don't disagree. The problem is this is not the "All Season" awards. This is the All conference awards and he played 5 of 7 conference games and was the best player in the conference and second place isn't close. There are plenty of examples of players earning all conference awards who miss a conference game or two. Shoot, Danny Puknaitis was 2nd team RB for Wheaton and he never started a game this year. He played in every game, had fewer carries, yards per game, and total yards rushing in 10 games than JP11 had in 5 games! How does that make sense?

I should also clarify my comments about the Peltz, Warden, Conway comparison. TD Conway, in my opinion, did the least with the most individual talent. He is very smart QB with a great arm. Peltz and Warden are much better overall athletes and more complete offensive threats because of the their running ability. They are different styles completely. Conway carried NPU, both good and bad. Peltz vaulted Wheaton from a probable 2nd place finish and watching games this weekend to an undefeated season, 2 home games, top 10 ranking and some Thanksgiving madness in Thundertown.

The system is broken.

USee,

Before you get too mad at me, I agree with you on two fronts:
1. Peltz should be somewhere on the all-conference team.
2. When there are only 8 teams in the league and you name QBs representing half of the league's teams it greatly cheapens the process. 3 QBs on the 2nd team is ridiculous. 2 might even be too many. If there is no process in place to break a tie vote, there ought to be.

However, while Peltz did do great things, I think its stretching things a bit to say that during the time he played he "was the best player in the conference, and 2nd place isn't close." Without going into great detail, I doubt you saw any player not wearing a Wheaton uniform play every game that any specific player participated in. Accordingly, you can't know how they preformed in those games. Yes, you can look at a list of stats, but they don't tell you things like the guy who had only 1 catch outfought 2 defenders or made a circus catch to pull in the game winning TD, or the guy who ran the ball in for the game winning TD from 12 yards out broke 6 tackles in those 12 yards. And, as far as the 2nd best player not even being close, it seems like at least 2 players were at least close--Peter Sorenson, the Offensive POY, and Peltz' own teammate Adan Dansdill, the Defensive POY.
I think both their awards were for the total 7 game conference portion of the season. 

Sorensen is a great player and I am glad he won the POY. I appreciate your points and generally agree. But a single performance is different than a level of productivity.  I was thinking only about offense so didn't consider Dandsdill or others.  I was simply referring to the fact Peltz averaged over 300 yds of total offense for 5 games and the next highest player was 261 yds per game. I thought, all things considered, Peltz should have been at least 2nd team.

[HScoach]

I think your use of the word "someday" with regard to NCC making the playoff field, could have used some modifiers. It isn't like it hasn't happened before, and recently at that. You can look it up. 
Perhaps something like "again someday soon." 

I am pretty sure HSCoach meant it as such:

The AQ could very well be the reason your team makes the field someday. (As in the ONLY reason.)

Exactly what I was trying to say, but obviously not so well.

The supposed strength of teams and conferences are very hard to gauge with so little national cross over games in the regular season.  And things change in time.  It wasn't too long ago the WIAC champ was considered a one-and-done team, but now that conference is home to the King.  Without AQ's it may keep a conference from stepping forward.

[wheels81]

Next Year's OPOY and DPOY?   

https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xfp1/v/t1.0-9/1510538_10152812896409654_1492315117639422088_n.jpg?oh=5fe65ec2c0b44a226c81003d3cc59ec1&oe=54E3DBF8&__gda__=1424017832_3dd701d1365f129e04faa502d8fd45d1

[Mugsy]

Next Year's OPOY and DPOY?   

https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xfp1/v/t1.0-9/1510538_10152812896409654_1492315117639422088_n.jpg?oh=5fe65ec2c0b44a226c81003d3cc59ec1&oe=54E3DBF8&__gda__=1424017832_3dd701d1365f129e04faa502d8fd45d1

What a cool picture of the cousins!

[AndOne]

With North Central's season now over, thus ends a grand 13 year era in NCC athletic history, during which its football team was led by both a great coach and a great guy, John Thorne, the focus of the accompanying Naperville Sun article.

http://napervillesun.chicagotribune.com/2014/11/18/final-curtain-call-north-central-colleges-john-thorne/

[Gregory Sager]

I like Sorenson as MOP (Swider even credited him with NCC's rushing success) and Conway as 1st team QB (does NP win any conference games without him?).

NPU isn't even in any CCIW games without T.D. Conway.

I should also clarify my comments about the Peltz, Warden, Conway comparison. TD Conway, in my opinion, did the least with the most individual talent. He is very smart QB with a great arm. Peltz and Warden are much better overall athletes and more complete offensive threats because of the their running ability. They are different styles completely.

First of all, I don't agree that T.D. Conway's less athletic than Warden or Peltz. He's a different kind of athlete than Warden or Peltz. He's much bigger than either of them, and he obviously lacks their footspeed. But he's got a much more powerful arm than either Peltz or Warden. I know that, like Conway, Peltz plays baseball, but he doesn't have a 90 mph fastball and he doesn't pitch. Conway does. I do agree, though, that their running ability makes Peltz and Warden more complete offensive threats than Conway.

Second, I disagree with your opinion that Conway "did the least with the most individual talent." The "most individual talent" part seems to contradict your "better overall athletes" assertion, but the more important point is the one that Izzy brought up, and that is context. Conway was burdened with the worst rushing offense in the league this season. NPU averaged a full 13 yards per game less than did the seventh-place rushing offense (Carthage), and the Vikings' 88.3 ypg on the ground was barely half that of the league average of 163 ypg. NPU barely out-averaged Carthage in yards per carry in league play (3.0 to 2.9), with the next-worst, Millikin, all the way up at 3.7 ypc and the league average sitting at a robust 4.1 ypc. North Park and Millikin each recorded a grand total of one touchdown run in CCIW play this season, while the league average was ten touchdown runs. North Central and Wheaton each ran for 15 touchdowns in CCIW play this season.

Because NPU couldn't move the ball on the ground at all, every defensive coordinator in the league knew that the Vikings were going to throw, throw, throw. In a league in which five of the teams were run-first by a large margin and two teams (Millikin and Carthage) were roughly 50/50, NPU was 60/40 in favor of the pass. Yet, in spite of the fact that everybody and his brother knew that North Park was going to constantly air it out due to sheer necessity, T.D. Conway still managed to rack up very impressive numbers. And I'm sure that this context is why the coaches put him on the All-CCIW first team.

Finally, I don't think that "the system is broken" as far as picking the All-CCIW team is concerned. I think that the system's fine. The eight head coaches pick the All-CCIW team, and I think that that's the way it should be. I suppose that you could have the SIDs and/or Mike Krizman pick the All-CCIW teams, but do you really think that that'd be an improvement?

[Gregory Sager]

I think your use of the word "someday" with regard to NCC making the playoff field, could have used some modifiers. It isn't like it hasn't happened before, and recently at that. You can look it up. 
Perhaps something like "again someday soon." 

I am pretty sure HSCoach meant it as such:

The AQ could very well be the reason your team makes the field someday. (As in the ONLY reason.)

Exactly what I was trying to say, but obviously not so well.

The supposed strength of teams and conferences are very hard to gauge with so little national cross over games in the regular season.  And things change in time.  It wasn't too long ago the WIAC champ was considered a one-and-done team, but now that conference is home to the King.  Without AQ's it may keep a conference from stepping forward.

Beyond that, it's a question of fairness and equity. As is the case across the board in NCAA sports -- not just in D3, but in D1 and D2 as well -- the principle is that every member institution and conference that pays its NCAA dues is entitled to equal access to championships. That's why March Madness always features schools such as Mercer, Cal Poly, Wofford, and Stephen F. Austin every year. And people like that, because it's fun to cheer for an underdog. I can understand why that same sentiment doesn't seem to apply here, at least for CardinalAlum and other disgruntled NCC fans, because the D3 football tourney field is much smaller and there's far fewer at-large berths available.

You'll never see an NCAA tournament in any of the three divisions in which the field consists of the best 32 teams in the nation, or the best 61 teams in the nation, or the best 64 teams in the nation, or whatever size the tournament field happens to be for that sport and that division. That's life. As long as all of the teams that have a legitimate shot at winning the national championship are represented, the system works. And I guess that that's the question here: Do people really think that NCC had a legitimate shot at winning the national championship this season if the Cardinals had been awarded a playoff berth?

[USee]

Greg,

I guess it depends on your definition of athlete, which you alluded to as "different kind of athlete". Peltz isn't a pitcher, doesn't have a stronger arm than Conway, but he was far more accurate and productive as a quarterback. And Peltz was 30% of the Thunder's 10 game running production despite playing only 5 games. Conway rushed for -23 yards. No running game? Take off and run a little.

I referred to Conway's talent because he has the best Quarteback arm among all the CCIW qb's. When he is accurate, he is as good as I have seen. But he laid a couple eggs this year, running game or no. I don't fault him for that. He was the man among boys. But he could have won 2 more games for the Park by your account (Alma and Elmhurst) where he didn't really play well.

Look, I have no problem with TDC being 1st team. I think JP11 was more productive but he didn't have the full set of games. Next year we will see who does what as they are both back and we can compare notes then.

They system is indeed broken when the coaches are telling us JP11 isn't among the top 4 QB's in the conference. I wouldn't suggest adding voters. The coaches can do it just fine. But right now there is no tie breaking vote and each coach gets a "gimme' as a 2nd teamer which is easy to fix. I just think allowing coaches to add their token player and we end up with 15 2nd teamers is pretty lame.

[AndOne]

I think your use of the word "someday" with regard to NCC making the playoff field, could have used some modifiers. It isn't like it hasn't happened before, and recently at that. You can look it up. 
Perhaps something like "again someday soon." 

I am pretty sure HSCoach meant it as such:

The AQ could very well be the reason your team makes the field someday. (As in the ONLY reason.)

Exactly what I was trying to say, but obviously not so well.

The supposed strength of teams and conferences are very hard to gauge with so little national cross over games in the regular season.  And things change in time.  It wasn't too long ago the WIAC champ was considered a one-and-done team, but now that conference is home to the King.  Without AQ's it may keep a conference from stepping forward.

Beyond that, it's a question of fairness and equity. As is the case across the board in NCAA sports -- not just in D3, but in D1 and D2 as well -- the principle is that every member institution and conference that pays its NCAA dues is entitled to equal access to championships. That's why March Madness always features schools such as Mercer, Cal Poly, Wofford, and Stephen F. Austin every year. And people like that, because it's fun to cheer for an underdog. I can understand why that same sentiment doesn't seem to apply here, at least for CardinalAlum and other disgruntled NCC fans, because the D3 football tourney field is much smaller and there's far fewer at-large berths available.

You'll never see an NCAA tournament in any of the three divisions in which the field consists of the best 32 teams in the nation, or the best 61 teams in the nation, or the best 64 teams in the nation, or whatever size the tournament field happens to be for that sport and that division. That's life. As long as all of the teams that have a legitimate shot at winning the national championship are represented, the system works. And I guess that that's the question here: Do people really think that NCC had a legitimate shot at winning the national championship this season if the Cardinals had been awarded a playoff berth?

Asking that question is like the aged philosophy professor asking "what proof is there that the chair you're sitting on is really there?"
Define "legitimate." Where do you draw the line between legitimate and illegitimate? Wherever it is, one thing is for certain and that is NCC had at least as "legitimate" of a chance as teams like Macalester, Benedictine, Hampden-Sydney, and Christopher Newport have.
That is as undeniable as the fact that if the chair wasn't there, my arse would have been on the floor.