FB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[emma17]

So can someone who has a good sense of the answer please fill in the blank on this:

North Central is to Wheaton as Robert Morris-Chicago is to D3's ___.

Just trying to calibrate this weekend's results in my mind's eye a bit.  Thx.

Wesley

[AndOne]

So can someone who has a good sense of the answer please fill in the blank on this:

North Central is to Wheaton as Robert Morris-Chicago is to D3's ___.

Just trying to calibrate this weekend's results in my mind's eye a bit.  Thx.

Not exactly sure of the relationship or how to define it, but suffice it to say that North Central beat an NAIA scholarship school that was ranked 13th in the country preseason, and then won their first game before going up against the Cardinals.  🤔 😏

[Pat Coleman]

So can someone who has a good sense of the answer please fill in the blank on this:

North Central is to Wheaton as Robert Morris-Chicago is to D3's ___.

Just trying to calibrate this weekend's results in my mind's eye a bit.  Thx.

Not exactly sure of the relationship or how to define it, but suffice it to say that North Central beat an NAIA scholarship school that was ranked 13th in the country preseason, and then won their first game before going up against the Cardinals.  🤔 😏

One thing to keep in mind with the NAIA is that it has many fewer football teams. In this case, Robert Morris is 13th of 87.

[sac]

Using last years masseyratings.com, the #13 NAIA outfit was the equivalent of the #22 or so D3 team.  +/- whatever errors you feel exist.


North Central beat Bacon and should be ashamed.........<whisper>  oh, Bacone, well then carry on.

[AndOne]

Using last years masseyratings.com, the #13 NAIA outfit was the equivalent of the #22 or so D3 team.  +/- whatever errors you feel exist.


North Central beat Bacon and should be ashamed.........<whisper>  oh, Bacone, well then carry on.

It wasn't North Central who devoured either the Bacon or Bacone, but rather Robert Morris.   
The Cardinals have nothing to be ashamed about.   
Their plate is clean.

[79jaybird]

Pat,  you are correct and indeed I just looked at the score in the paper, heard on the radio.  My first (impulse) thought was what gives running up the score? etc.  So fill me in please if there are facts that I am unaware of.  I just know I tell the kids I coach (ice hockey) that once a score gets lopsided,  "no more goals" and to work on passing etc.  as you never want to embarrass and play "Bush League".

[Gregory Sager]

Mark, St. John's used 96 players, including six different quarterbacks. The Johnnies threw a grand total of three passes in the second half. Furthermore, the SJU coach offered to use a running clock in the second half; the CSS coach refused the offer.

SJU can't be blamed for the final score. The head coach did his due diligence to keep the score down, but you can't blame third- and fourth- and fifth-string Johnnies for playing as hard as they possibly could.  At some point you simply have to say that it's the responsibility of the Saints to play the game effectively against Johnnies who are well down the depth chart, since their coach eschewed the opportunity to shorten the game.

I've said for years that D3 football should follow the leads of other D3 sports such as baseball and softball that have score-derived mercy rules. It's not just a matter of pride and/or sportsmanship; in football, it's a matter of injury risk as well.

[Mugsy]

Mark, St. John's used 96 players, including six different quarterbacks. The Johnnies threw a grand total of three passes in the second half. Furthermore, the SJU coach offered to use a running clock in the second half; the CSS coach refused the offer.

SJU can't be blamed for the final score. The head coach did his due diligence to keep the score down, but you can't blame third- and fourth- and fifth-string Johnnies for playing as hard as they possibly could.  At some point you simply have to say that it's the responsibility of the Saints to play the game effectively against Johnnies who are well down the depth chart, since their coach eschewed the opportunity to shorten the game.

I've said for years that D3 football should follow the leads of other D3 sports such as baseball and softball that have score-derived mercy rules. It's not just a matter of pride and/or sportsmanship; in football, it's a matter of injury risk as well.

Scary thought... just imagine if SJU hadn't been as diligent at keeping the score down.     150-0?  175-0?

I'm not sure I understand how you lose 96-0 at the collegiate level without completely giving up. 

[Kovo]

Mark, St. John's used 96 players, including six different quarterbacks. The Johnnies threw a grand total of three passes in the second half. Furthermore, the SJU coach offered to use a running clock in the second half; the CSS coach refused the offer.

SJU can't be blamed for the final score. The head coach did his due diligence to keep the score down, but you can't blame third- and fourth- and fifth-string Johnnies for playing as hard as they possibly could.  At some point you simply have to say that it's the responsibility of the Saints to play the game effectively against Johnnies who are well down the depth chart, since their coach eschewed the opportunity to shorten the game.

I've said for years that D3 football should follow the leads of other D3 sports such as baseball and softball that have score-derived mercy rules. It's not just a matter of pride and/or sportsmanship; in football, it's a matter of injury risk as well.

Declining to use the running clock was foolish and put his team at risk.  The running clock should be automatic when a team goes up by 50.

With that said, I'm not a huge fan of mercy rules.  Having managed many youth baseball teams (including the 2015 Little League Palm Beach County Champions---thanks for asking), I know that the mercy rule becomes an effective way to save your team so that you are compelled to try and run it up to end the contest.  Although a different sport, I don't know how many times I had my guys stealing bases up 9-0 to get to the 10 run rule so that we could save pitchers.  It isn't great sportsmanship but you have to do it to win tournaments.

I suspect that if you put a mercy rule in football you would find lots of coaches trying to get to the number so they can get in the locker room and worry about next week.

[Gregory Sager]

I understand how the mercy rule can defeat the purpose for which it is intended -- sportsmanship -- in a back-to-back tournament situation, which is why, IIRC, it's not used in the CCIW baseball and softball tourneys. But football is a different matter, not just because the back-to-back-games situation doesn't apply but because of the injury factor. Not only is football inherently more dangerous from a physical standpoint than are other sports, but in a lopsided case like that you often have players on the losing side who are undersized or exhausted, or both, when compared to the players on the winning team. Size disparity and relative lack of freshness are two ingredients that up the ante in terms of the possibility of injury.

[ExTartanPlayer]

In what way did SJU run up the score, 79? I think you don't know anything about that game other than the score, so assumptions are not a good idea.

Pat,  you are correct and indeed I just looked at the score in the paper, heard on the radio.  My first (impulse) thought was what gives running up the score? etc.  So fill me in please if there are facts that I am unaware of.  I just know I tell the kids I coach (ice hockey) that once a score gets lopsided,  "no more goals" and to work on passing etc.  as you never want to embarrass and play "Bush League".

Mark, St. John's used 96 players, including six different quarterbacks. The Johnnies threw a grand total of three passes in the second half. Furthermore, the SJU coach offered to use a running clock in the second half; the CSS coach refused the offer.

SJU can't be blamed for the final score. The head coach did his due diligence to keep the score down, but you can't blame third- and fourth- and fifth-string Johnnies for playing as hard as they possibly could.  At some point you simply have to say that it's the responsibility of the Saints to play the game effectively against Johnnies who are well down the depth chart, since their coach eschewed the opportunity to shorten the game.

I've said for years that D3 football should follow the leads of other D3 sports such as baseball and softball that have score-derived mercy rules. It's not just a matter of pride and/or sportsmanship; in football, it's a matter of injury risk as well.

This ground has already been covered, but it's amazing to me how every time there's a score that goes over about 70, the default assumption from at least one person (often a regular poster here, not someone totally new to the website, which would be a little more excusable) "they ran up the score" when this wonderful website provides a link to every single game's box score and play-by-play breakdown.  Finding some of the "facts that you were not aware of" would have taken you about 30 seconds on any old smartphone to head to this website, go to the game's box score and discover that:

- St. John's had fourteen different players run the ball, none for more than six attempts
- St. John's starting QB threw a total of seven passes, the last of which occurred with 13:52 remaining in the second quarter (i.e. 16 minutes into the game)
- With the score 56-0 and CSS on the SJU 25-yard-line with 20 seconds to play in the second quarter, SJU recovered a fumble and returned for a TD, slightly inflating the margin
- St. John's third-string QB started the second half
- St. John's third-string QB threw their final pass attempt of the game with about eight minutes to play in the third quarter
- St. John's went to the fourth-string QB with 4:18 to play in the third quarter
- St. John's went to the fifth-string QB with 1:14 to play in the third quarter
- St. John's had a pair of touc

All of these "facts that you were not aware of" were readily available in the box score (admittedly, awareness of the offer to play the second half with a running clock required some inside information, but the rest of this was all knowable just by looking at the game score).  Or, you know, you could just bring up your experience coaching Little League hockey to highlight your commitment to GOOD SPORTSMANSHIP and admonish St. John's for their POOR SPORTSMANSHIP without checking into the situation at all.

As has been discussed in prior "running up the score" discussions - I would feel far more beaten down by the other team just outright quitting (punts on first down, just intentionally running out of bounds instead of scoring, etc) than by losing 98-0 instead of 68-0 with the other team taking a knee or just outright giving the ball back the entire second half.  Not that I think that's a wrong approach, Mount Union's been doing that for years and it's fine with me, but I really have zero problem with teams in blowout games continuing to play football as long as they're following a few very obvious points of etiquette: backups in the game, mostly running plays, no long passes, stuff like that.  I'm even okay with some limited short passing if you want to let the third- and fourth-stringers actually run your offense a little bit (i.e. if it's third-and-six and you want to call a little bootleg dump-off pass to the TE in the flat because that's what you'd actually call in that situation, fine).

I'm not sure I understand how you lose 96-0 at the collegiate level without completely giving up. 

I think sometimes people forget how big the gap is between the top and the bottom of Division III.  The gap between the top 10-15 programs in D3 and the bottom 10-15 programs is probably the same distance as the gap between those top 10-15 D3 programs and a quality FCS team, probably bigger.  I started for three-plus years on what probably passed for an upper-middle-class Division III team and probably would never have cracked the two-deep at the Mount / UWW / UST / Wesley stratum of things.  The guys on the end of the SJU bench would all be starting for CSS.

[79jaybird]

Thank you all for clarifying, and I was not looking to start an inferno.       In our ice hockey leagues,  anytime a team goes up by 7 goals in the third period, it is a running clock, whether or not any side wants it. 

I remember losing at Augie 62-0 and 58-0 and everybody was emptying their bench. But never did we feel Augie was running up the score. 

Ok moving on,   I am hoping Elmhurst has a better showing this weekend.  There were too many "issues" on both sides of the ball, that I hope the coaching staff is able to polish up Saturday.

[AO]

I understand how the mercy rule can defeat the purpose for which it is intended -- sportsmanship -- in a back-to-back tournament situation, which is why, IIRC, it's not used in the CCIW baseball and softball tourneys. But football is a different matter, not just because the back-to-back-games situation doesn't apply but because of the injury factor. Not only is football inherently more dangerous from a physical standpoint than are other sports, but in a lopsided case like that you often have players on the losing side who are undersized or exhausted, or both, when compared to the players on the winning team. Size disparity and relative lack of freshness are two ingredients that up the ante in terms of the possibility of injury.

In the 2nd half Scholastica was playing their 3rd/4th string.  This wasn't Maranatha or Trinity Bible where they only have 30 guys on the roster.  It was a JV game for the 2nd half which the Johnnies won 35-0 with 225 yards of offense.  Nothing that crazy, just a lot of short fields.  There was no great size disparity or lack of freshness.  The kids at the end of the bench on both teams deserve a chance to play.

[Gregory Sager]

Your description of the CSS @ SJU game is in error. The third- and fourth-string Saints did not play in that game. While CSS does have 78 players listed on the roster, according to the box score only 42 Saints saw action in the game.

[AndOne]

Another viewpoint................

Rather than focusing on arguments centered on questions such as sportsmanship or lack thereof, or the need to protect tired or undersized athletes, what about placing some of the "blame" on the St. Scholastica coach for scheduling a game against such a traditionally strong opponent? And yes, I do know that contracts are sometimes let fairly far in advance of the contracted date. But what did he think was going to happen? Was there any rational expectation that his team would be able to compete with St. John's on an equal or even a nearly equal basis? Certainly there was a traditionally weaker MIAC team he could have scheduled, or even possibly a team of a somewhat equal skill level in neighboring state. I place some of the "blame" for such a lopsided loss on the Scholastica coach.
You go in the lions den and you're likely to get mauled. A rather stupid move IMHO.