FB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[AO]

AO, you're making your case based upon the assumption that the SJU game staff is incompetent, and I'm not buying into it. Every year there are plenty of blowouts at Clemens Stadium.

Incompetent is way too harsh.  I don't think it's crucial for the box score to list every player who played in the game but didn't record a statistic.  I have no reason to disbelieve Fasching when he says 160 or Ramler when he says 3rd string.  I didn't take a count of exactly how many players Scholastica had dressed but there were freshmen not on the 2-deep making tackles in the 2nd half.   The real point is that Scholastica was clearly not playing guys all 4 quarters to the point where the lack of freshness would lead to the greater risk of injury. 

I also seriously doubt the stats program has a limit of 98 players.

[Gregory Sager]

AO, you're making your case based upon the assumption that the SJU game staff is incompetent, and I'm not buying into it. Every year there are plenty of blowouts at Clemens Stadium.

Incompetent is way too harsh.  I don't think it's crucial for the box score to list every player who played in the game but didn't record a statistic.

You may not, but the coaches, SIDs, players, parents, etc., do. And I'm sure that the people who are being paid to track player participation want to get it right as well.

It's even more crucial if the program runs a JV team, because there are NCAA rules regarding how many games in which a player can participate (which depends upon the sport, of course), and JV games count towards that total. I doubt that CSS has a JV football team, though, given the modest size of the roster and the expense involved.

I have no reason to disbelieve Fasching when he says 160 or Ramler when he says 3rd string.

I do, because I trust the SJU people who are supposed to keep track of it.

I didn't take a count of exactly how many players Scholastica had dressed but there were freshmen not on the 2-deep making tackles in the 2nd half.

... and all of them are listed in the participation report, as I said earlier.

The real point is that Scholastica was clearly not playing guys all 4 quarters to the point where the lack of freshness would lead to the greater risk of injury.

This was your original quote:

In the 2nd half Scholastica was playing their 3rd/4th string.  This wasn't Maranatha or Trinity Bible where they only have 30 guys on the roster.  It was a JV game for the 2nd half which the Johnnies won 35-0 with 225 yards of offense.  Nothing that crazy, just a lot of short fields.  There was no great size disparity or lack of freshness.  The kids at the end of the bench on both teams deserve a chance to play.

... and that's what I responded to. There were clearly no fourth-string Saints on the field on Saturday. Likewise, as I said above, I doubt that CSS even has a JV team. With a roster of only 78 listed players (and who knows how many of them aren't dressing anymore) and 42 of them playing in the opening varsity game, it looks very unlikely.

i didn't equate CSS with Maranatha Baptist (RIP Sabercats football) or Trinity Bible, or any of the other just-barely-hanging-on programs that only have three or four dozen players on the roster. CSS is obviously a healthy program, both in terms of roster size and relative competence within its league. And the fact that the Johnnies appeared to be milking the clock in the second half would mitigate against the exhaustion of their opponents, anyway.

But, then again, I didn't make the argument for a mercy rule dependent upon the codicils of undersized players or relative exhaustion. I simply said that they could be additional factors to consider in establishing a mercy rule in order to reduce the possibility of injuries in a game that reasonably ought to be discontinued.

I also seriously doubt the stats program has a limit of 98 players.

I don't profess to know which software SJU uses. I know that Stat Crew can accommodate more than 98 with regard to pregame input. But I don't know how much space a participation report is allotted within a box score readout on whatever SJU's using.

[AndOne]

Why does there have to be fault?   Is anybody aggrieved here other than far away spectators that have attached their own narratives to that game and score?  There are a lot of people that I see are all riled up about this, but none of them seem to be CSS Saints.

The scheduling thing is low hanging fruit.  It's easy to say CSS just shouldn't put a team like St. John's on their schedule- but if not St. John's then who?  NCC has had their own difficulty filling out a schedule and they don't have the geographic obstacle that CSS does.  Scheduling is hard.  Not everybody is going to wind up with perfect matchups.

Perhaps the explanation why none of those that seem to be riled up are CSS fans is that there just aren't any or many CSS fans who read/post here? 

As far as NCC having scheduling problems--different case altogether. This was most often a case of teams not wanting to play NCC for fear of getting a likely loss as opposed to CSS willingly allowing itself to be led to slaughter! 

Hope you didn't bump your head on that low hanging fruit. 

Was using North Central as a familiar example of a team that has or has had trouble scheduling games.  For different reasons sure, but it illuminates the point that scheduling is hard- for a lot of different reasons.  For CSS, there just aren't a lot of teams around Duluth.  And maybe they tried to find games against teams closer to their competitive level and couldn't get a dance partner (without having to incur the immense expense of a flight game).  We don't really know what options were explored before they came to an agreement with St. John's. 

So my earlier question- if not St. John's, then who?- doesn't have to be rhetorical.  If you've got an alternative, I think it is constructive to hear it.  Most Division III coaches would love to hear how to solve the scheduling problems that they nearly all encounter.

While nobody knows if they had an opening at the time, I certainly would have tried traditionally weaker in-state schools like Hamline or Carleton, or not to distant, usually lower half WIAC schools like River Falls or Stout before signing on the dotted line with St. John's. 

[AO]

AO, you're making your case based upon the assumption that the SJU game staff is incompetent, and I'm not buying into it. Every year there are plenty of blowouts at Clemens Stadium.

Incompetent is way too harsh.  I don't think it's crucial for the box score to list every player who played in the game but didn't record a statistic.

You may not, but the coaches, SIDs, players, parents, etc., do. And I'm sure that the people who are being paid to track player participation want to get it right as well.

From the official recap by the Johnnies paid to get it right:

Seven of the Johnnies' 12 offensive scoring drives covered 41 yards or less and the entire 180-man roster, outside of the injured, played in the game

[Gregory Sager]

For the third time, AO, this isn't about SJU's participation. It's about St. Scholastica's.

[AO]

For the third time, AO, this isn't about SJU's participation. It's about St. Scholastica's.

It stands to reason that if St. John's participation report was wildy off, Scholastica's would be too.  Your theory about the boxscore readout being limited is preposterous.

[Pat Coleman]

For the third time, AO, this isn't about SJU's participation. It's about St. Scholastica's.

It stands to reason that if St. John's participation report was wildy off, Scholastica's would be too.  Your theory about the boxscore readout being limited is preposterous.

Phew -- just read through three screens and four hours of posts on the CCIW board about a MIAC-UMAC game.

Gregory, I'm with AO on this one. I've seen plenty of game day operations at a lot of places and sometimes participation is not the highest priority. Usually there's a student keeping track of it with binoculars and a set of rosters at best -- and in a game with 250 kids suited up, many of them double-numbered, it's a lot to ask.

Sure, backups who make tackles get in the participation report. Do third string linemen? The other third-string defenders who don't make tackles? I am sure there are some people missing and I trust the coaches' takes on this rather than anything else.

[iwu70]

IWU has Nebraska Wesleyan at home this Saturday, 1 p.m.  Let's hope more good things to come, no let-down from the marvelous, big win over then #3 Wisconsin Whitewater last week. 

Big games vs. NCC and Wheaton upcoming early in the season.

No injuries reported from the WW game.  That's good, better than earlier seasons.

Go TITANS.

IWU'70

[Gregory Sager]

For the third time, AO, this isn't about SJU's participation. It's about St. Scholastica's.

It stands to reason that if St. John's participation report was wildy off, Scholastica's would be too.

Seriously? One team that has 160+ players and is listed as using 98, versus a visiting team that has 78 and is listed as using 42? How in blazes do you figure that one equals the other?

Your theory about the boxscore readout being limited is preposterous.

That's not my theory. I'm simply saying that I don't know which software SJU uses, or how much space there is in that section of the box score for the participation report.

For the third time, AO, this isn't about SJU's participation. It's about St. Scholastica's.

It stands to reason that if St. John's participation report was wildy off, Scholastica's would be too.  Your theory about the boxscore readout being limited is preposterous.

Phew -- just read through three screens and four hours of posts on the CCIW board about a MIAC-UMAC game.

Gregory, I'm with AO on this one. I've seen plenty of game day operations at a lot of places and sometimes participation is not the highest priority. Usually there's a student keeping track of it with binoculars and a set of rosters at best -- and in a game with 250 kids suited up, many of them double-numbered, it's a lot to ask.

Sure, backups who make tackles get in the participation report. Do third string linemen? The other third-string defenders who don't make tackles? I am sure there are some people missing and I trust the coaches' takes on this rather than anything else.

Then we differ on this. I think that it's reasonable for SJU's mammoth participation to exceed the press box's capacity to keep up, if not the box score space itself. I don't think that that's the case for CSS. And, again, it's the very slowness of the second half, and the fact that there were only 54 plays run in that half, that makes me think that the press box got the Saints right. It's not that hard to track participation if one team is running twenty seconds off the clock before each snap.

[kiko]

Some context:

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2731941-how-do-you-get-back-on-the-field-after-losing-98-0-as-quickly-as-possible

[Gregory Sager]

Massey is mostly just building off of last year's stats at this point, but I thought it'd be interesting to track what it's predicting throughout the season. This is its Week Two predictions for the CCIW:

@ Central 34, Augustana 24	(CC 76%, AC 24%)
@ Carthage 31, Bethel 24	(CC 66%, BU 34%)
Olivet 28, @ Elmhurst 25	(OC 58%, EC 42%)
@ Illinois Wesleyan 35, Nebraska Wesleyan 14	(IWU 91%, NWU 9%)
@ Rose-Hulman 27, Millikin 24	(RHIT 58%, MU 42%)
@ Midland 31, North Park 13	(MU 88%, NPU 12%)
Wheaton 44, @ Kalamazoo 3	(WC 100%, KC 0%)

[79jaybird]

Just looking at OC vs. EC I would agree this is pretty accurate.  I would even go a little higher as I had OC by 10 pts.   Elmhurst needs to shut the door defensively on 3rd down.  They couldn't get off the field vs. Loras.   Loras also benefitted from short fields,  so field position is going to be a big factor too.     

[AndOne]

IWU has Nebraska Wesleyan at home this Saturday, 1 p.m.  Let's hope more good things to come, no let-down from the marvelous, big win over then #3 Wisconsin Whitewater last week. 

No injuries reported from the WW game.  That's good, better than earlier seasons.

IWU'70

I don't hold out much hope that my old school can today upset the Green Team, who played brilliantly last week in their upset of the quasi-scholarship team.
On top of already being the decided underdog, the Plainsmen Prairie Wolves lost both their safeties and their #1 running back to injury last week, and none of the three are expected to be able to play today.

[USee]

Carthage all over Bethel in Kenosha

24-0 Redmen start of 4th

IWU up 21-7 over Nebraska Wesleyan in 2nd

[Gregory Sager]

NPU leads Midland at the half, 7-0.