FB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[jamtod]

No, it doesn't. The MIAC plays so few contests out of conference, due to its sheer size, in most sports that the SOS of MIAC teams trends more to .500 in both directions than is the case for other leagues. And, of course, within the MIAC itself all SOS evens out at .500, anyway, since there always has to be an equal number of wins and losses in league contests.

Even in single-round-robin sports that play a substantial number of contests -- men's soccer and women's soccer, for example, or volleyball -- the MIAC suffers because everybody else's leagues are also playing single-round-robin schedules, thereby decreasing the chances of a potential MIAC Pool C to move up in terms of national SOS comparisons.

Suggesting that the size of the league hurts the chances of a Pool C seems to be a different argument than saying it is due to St Thomas' dominance, no?
I don't know enough to refute either claim.

[Gregory Sager]

Not necessarily. There's a connection between the two. If you're picking up two losses to UST in a double-round-robin sport, it's going to ding your chances for a Pool C bid more than would be the case in a different league because your SOS margin is smaller to begin with.

[AO]

No, it doesn't. The MIAC plays so few contests out of conference, due to its sheer size, in most sports that the SOS of MIAC teams trends more to .500 in both directions than is the case for other leagues. And, of course, within the MIAC itself all SOS evens out at .500, anyway, since there always has to be an equal number of wins and losses in league contests.

Even in single-round-robin sports that play a substantial number of contests -- men's soccer and women's soccer, for example, or volleyball -- the MIAC suffers because everybody else's leagues are also playing single-round-robin schedules, thereby decreasing the chances of a potential MIAC Pool C to move up in terms of national SOS comparisons.

The MIAC picked up 2 pool c bids in volleyball and 1 in women's soccer today.   The Tommies have only used the MIAC Pool A in men's hoops once in the last 4 years. 

The MIAC could certainly NESCAC their schedule around to juice their SoS, but the deserving teams have generally made it.

[Gregory Sager]

No, it doesn't. The MIAC plays so few contests out of conference, due to its sheer size, in most sports that the SOS of MIAC teams trends more to .500 in both directions than is the case for other leagues. And, of course, within the MIAC itself all SOS evens out at .500, anyway, since there always has to be an equal number of wins and losses in league contests.

Even in single-round-robin sports that play a substantial number of contests -- men's soccer and women's soccer, for example, or volleyball -- the MIAC suffers because everybody else's leagues are also playing single-round-robin schedules, thereby decreasing the chances of a potential MIAC Pool C to move up in terms of national SOS comparisons.

The MIAC picked up 2 pool c bids in volleyball and 1 in women's soccer today.

Yes, two of the three ball sports in which I said that the disadvantage is easier to overcome due to a bigger schedule and a single round-robin,

The Tommies have only used the MIAC Pool A in men's hoops once in the last 4 years. 

They lost the MIAC tourney championship game those three seasons after winning the MIAC regular-season title, which is the clearer proof of dominance. It tells you much more about a time that it won a title over an 18-game double round-robin than it does if that team lost one particular game. In each case, of course, UST then went on to garner a Pool C berth.

[79jaybird]

GoIrish7- Thank you for looking that up.  So 140-62 in the 2nd half this year.  Well,  this stat says a lot.   
IMO- It shows that the opposition's coaching staff have made the proper adjustments to give their players the opportunity (if they execute) to get back in/put away the Jays  in the final 2 frames.  I have not been impressed with the current coaching regime on their adjustments and reads throughout the game. 

Regarding recruiting-  When I played we had a ton of FL players.  With no D-III in FL,  we always had a ton of Floridians (who would come to practice in flip flops     )  making the trek to Elmhurst to play.  Elmhurst is a beautiful arboreteum setting so nobody is going to say "No" to EC based on beauty.  One negative for EC, is that it is often too close to home for the incoming Freshman.   So historically they choose IWU/Augie/Carthage where it is just far enough away to be on your own,  yet if they needed to get home for (X) reasons,  they could make it back in a few hours. 

Historically,  Elmhurst has not been a stalwart in the CCIW, thus IMO you need a coach that knows how to make solid adjustments and be able to understand what the opposition is showing you.   IMO,  I've yet to see this with the current EC staff.

[USee]

GoIrish7- Thank you for looking that up.  So 140-62 in the 2nd half this year.  Well,  this stat says a lot.   
IMO- It shows that the opposition's coaching staff have made the proper adjustments to give their players the opportunity (if they execute) to get back in/put away the Jays  in the final 2 frames.  I have not been impressed with the current coaching regime on their adjustments and reads throughout the game. 

Regarding recruiting-  When I played we had a ton of FL players.  With no D-III in FL,  we always had a ton of Floridians (who would come to practice in flip flops     )  making the trek to Elmhurst to play.  Elmhurst is a beautiful arboreteum setting so nobody is going to say "No" to EC based on beauty.  One negative for EC, is that it is often too close to home for the incoming Freshman.   So historically they choose IWU/Augie/Carthage where it is just far enough away to be on your own,  yet if they needed to get home for (X) reasons,  they could make it back in a few hours. 

Historically,  Elmhurst has not been a stalwart in the CCIW, thus IMO you need a coach that knows how to make solid adjustments and be able to understand what the opposition is showing you.   IMO,  I've yet to see this with the current EC staff.

I don't think Elmhurst's problems are "adjustment" related. They were in the game at half against Wheaton and leading IWU mainly because they played hard, were well coached, and got some big plays against both (long pass play vs Wheaton, turnovers against both). In the end they lost big because both of those teams are significantly better than Elmhurst and no adjustments were going to cover that up. If IWU and Wheaton didn't turn the ball over those games would have been over at halftime.

The Elmhurst coaches have their players prepared and those kids play hard, its easy to see that. They are just playing against better teams.

[Gregory Sager]

Regarding recruiting-  When I played we had a ton of FL players.  With no D-III in FL,  we always had a ton of Floridians (who would come to practice in flip flops     )  making the trek to Elmhurst to play.

I don't know how hard the current Elmhurst staff works Florida, but it's not exactly a hidden treasure trove anymore. Lots and lots of D3 football staffs work the Florida recruiting circuit nowadays. F'rinstance, there's six Floridians on the NPU roster and ten on the Carthage roster. I would imagine that recruiting competition down there is heating up, no pun intended. Same goes with Colorado, which has become a significant source of CCIW student-athletes in this decade. North Park works Texas (especially the Austin metro area) and California as well, and of course Wheaton's all over the country following up on recruiting leads.

Elmhurst is a beautiful arboreteum setting so nobody is going to say "No" to EC based on beauty.  One negative for EC, is that it is often too close to home for the incoming Freshman.   So historically they choose IWU/Augie/Carthage where it is just far enough away to be on your own,  yet if they needed to get home for (X) reasons,  they could make it back in a few hours.

That too-close-to-home thing doesn't seem to be an issue for North Central.

[79jaybird]

True Greg,  but Elmhurst doesn't have the Thorne Embassy that has been a well known success, juggernaut in the DuPage Co area for quite some time.   NC has the hardware while Elmhurst (and others) just have hard luck. 

We both know winning opens up doors.  NC/Wheaton have done a lot of this the last 10 years or so.  You could also include Norm at IWU,  coaches who have proven success on the field,  makes the incoming recruits extra happy to come play for them.

[MUC57]

Gregory Sager

On the Florida recruiting subject-last year, Mount Union had 31 players from Florida on the team. LK was known to look down there. This year, not one freshman from Florida.
What's all that mean? I have no idea. Just wanted to throw it in there.
Go Purple Raiders!

[Gregory Sager]

True Greg,  but Elmhurst doesn't have the Thorne Embassy that has been a well known success, juggernaut in the DuPage Co area for quite some time.   NC has the hardware while Elmhurst (and others) just have hard luck. 

We both know winning opens up doors.  NC/Wheaton have done a lot of this the last 10 years or so.  You could also include Norm at IWU,  coaches who have proven success on the field,  makes the incoming recruits extra happy to come play for them.

Yes, and that's exactly why I said that North Central doesn't seem to have a problem with proximity issues in terms of recruiting. Recruiting isn't an exact science, because different kids want different things in a school and/or a program, but, for most prospective student-athletes, choosing a winning program trumps proximity issues. Also, proximity isn't an absolute in terms of positives and negatives. Lots of kids fall into your category of "close to home, but not too close". Others don't care how close the campus is to home, as long as it's close. Others deliberately want to go to a school that's beyond weekend-at-home distance, or are at least amenable to the notion. (Wheaton and North Park prove every year that these prospects exist.) And still others don't rate proximity as a factor at all when choosing a school.

(Choosing a winning program isn't an absolute, either. Some student-athletes value potential immediate playing time more than a winning program, or some specific academic or other non-athletic factor, while others are motivated by the idea of being on a cornerstone winning team rather than being part of a link in a chain of winners. But, by and large, the enticement of being part of a pre-existing winning program is definitely the bigger lure.)

Most resident students at American colleges and universities choose a school within 200 miles of home, and they tend to choose schools whose campuses are either located in demographic environments similar to that in which their families live or else are so huge that the campus is the demographic environment, as is the case with the super-sized Big Ten and MAC schools.

[GoIrish7]

True Greg,  but Elmhurst doesn't have the Thorne Embassy that has been a well known success, juggernaut in the DuPage Co area for quite some time.   NC has the hardware while Elmhurst (and others) just have hard luck. 

We both know winning opens up doors.  NC/Wheaton have done a lot of this the last 10 years or so.  You could also include Norm at IWU,  coaches who have proven success on the field,  makes the incoming recruits extra happy to come play for them.

Yes, and that's exactly why I said that North Central doesn't seem to have a problem with proximity issues in terms of recruiting. Recruiting isn't an exact science, because different kids want different things in a school and/or a program, but, for most prospective student-athletes, choosing a winning program trumps proximity issues. Also, proximity isn't an absolute in terms of positives and negatives. Lots of kids fall into your category of "close to home, but not too close". Others don't care how close the campus is to home, as long as it's close. Others deliberately want to go to a school that's beyond weekend-at-home distance, or are at least amenable to the notion. (Wheaton and North Park prove every year that these prospects exist.) And still others don't rate proximity as a factor at all when choosing a school.

(Choosing a winning program isn't an absolute, either. Some student-athletes value potential immediate playing time more than a winning program, or some specific academic or other non-athletic factor, while others are motivated by the idea of being on a cornerstone winning team rather than being part of a link in a chain of winners. But, by and large, the enticement of being part of a pre-existing winning program is definitely the bigger lure.)

Most resident students at American colleges and universities choose a school within 200 miles of home, and they tend to choose schools whose campuses are either located in demographic environments similar to that in which their families live or else are so huge that the campus is the demographic environment, as is the case with the super-sized Big Ten and MAC schools.

More notes -- On recruiting, it is all about relationships and what can you offer. John Throne being at WWS for so long, and being one of the most well respected coaches in the state of IL is why NCC to this day is still owning the Chicagoland recruits. Coach John built relationships with other coaches, Jeff while working for John was able to meet and maintain/build his own relationships with HS staffs across the state. Jeff has hired a passionate group of coaches who hit the recruiting trail and are able to bring personality into every building they walk into - that on top of the Throne reputation - plus NCC being a winning culture seems like a no brainer for HS students. As a former coach, I would walk into a school and ask to see student A, B, C..... In return many times I would 1 of the students I asked to see and 3-4 kids who the HS coach deemed to be good enough to play d3. When asked about A, B, C I would usually get told they are not interested or going to play scholarship ball.... Most times NCC would get 1-2 of those requested kids.

Regarding Florida, with IL HS football numbers being down I just think that where in IL a school might have 1-2 players who can play at the competitive d3 level, you go to FL, TX, Ca, etc etc you walk into a HS and you have 6-7 HS players who could come and be interested in schools up north. As mentioned it is not an exact science but one thing I loved about the Lester Regime was that he hired coaches with reputations in MI, FL, IN, etc. This allowed Lester and Coach Brennan, who both have great reps to recruit the IL suburbs and then let the other coaches go work their relationships. When the Bluejays were most competitive they had 56 players from out of state, damn near half the team with 21 of them coming from FL and many of them being major contributors. We currently have 7 players from FL and are mainly IL roster driven.

I think Planz has the boys playing very hard. He is a high character coach who is bringing good kids into the program. As mentioned, some of these good kids just are not very good football players. We have been able to compete in a few games and make it competitive on the players heart and effort but then get run down and out manned. Scheme -- The offense lacks identity, our QB was very good in a run and shoot, Money Manziel type of offense in HS - with the speed of the CCIW game this has not translated. Often times he looks to make big run around plays when what we really need is to hit the open 5 yard hitch route or hand the ball off and not call his number. Our OL looks undersized but they play their asses off and fight for their teammates. We have a really big TE who is a very good player. The defense has played very sound football, and often with offensive turnovers had to play with their back against the wall.

[Gregory Sager]

IMO- Augie needs to get their identity back.  Perhaps going back to the Wing-T.  When Augie's Wing-T was polished, they were next to unstoppable.  2nd, sometimes 3rd man through the hole and they are almost always generating 4-6 yds (minimally) a carry.   

Once they chose to distance the Wing-T,  they were looking to adopt programs and ideas from others,  and well the results prove it.

How many high schools use the Wing-T nowadays? And how many kids would want to play in a Wing-T offense in college, even after you go to the trouble of explaining to them what it is?

To be honest, I'm intrigued by the thought of what a Wing-T offense could do in D3 with the right mix of players. But it's horse-and-buggy-era football in the popular mindset. So is the triple option, which NPU discovered during the Pethtel era. As sound an idea as it was for North Park football to change direction and adopt that strategy -- I will always give Scott Pethtel due credit for heeding the axiom usually attributed to Albert Einstein that the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results -- in the end it just proved too difficult to recruit for it. I strongly suspect that the same would be the case for the Wing-T, if someone ever blew the dust off of the Wing-T playbook and brought it down from the attic.

More notes -- On recruiting, it is all about relationships and what can you offer. John Throne being at WWS for so long, and being one of the most well respected coaches in the state of IL is why NCC to this day is still owning the Chicagoland recruits. Coach John built relationships with other coaches, Jeff while working for John was able to meet and maintain/build his own relationships with HS staffs across the state. Jeff has hired a passionate group of coaches who hit the recruiting trail and are able to bring personality into every building they walk into - that on top of the Throne reputation - plus NCC being a winning culture seems like a no brainer for HS students. As a former coach, I would walk into a school and ask to see student A, B, C..... In return many times I would 1 of the students I asked to see and 3-4 kids who the HS coach deemed to be good enough to play d3. When asked about A, B, C I would usually get told they are not interested or going to play scholarship ball.... Most times NCC would get 1-2 of those requested kids.

That's kind of stating the obvious. Personal charisma, the ability to deliver a convincing sales pitch, and good contacts within the local high-school coaching community are always going to be strong factors among coaches in recruiting, because recruiting is all about the human element. If a parent is going to sink a king's ransom into his or her kid's education, they need to be sold on where they're going to spend it.

The other obvious factor in recruiting that hasn't been mentioned yet is money: How much does your school cost, how much aid can you get, and is your family able to afford it.

Regarding Florida, with IL HS football numbers being down I just think that where in IL a school might have 1-2 players who can play at the competitive d3 level, you go to FL, TX, Ca, etc etc you walk into a HS and you have 6-7 HS players who could come and be interested in schools up north. As mentioned it is not an exact science but one thing I loved about the Lester Regime was that he hired coaches with reputations in MI, FL, IN, etc. This allowed Lester and Coach Brennan, who both have great reps to recruit the IL suburbs and then let the other coaches go work their relationships. When the Bluejays were most competitive they had 56 players from out of state, damn near half the team with 21 of them coming from FL and many of them being major contributors. We currently have 7 players from FL and are mainly IL roster driven.

That's a good description of the division of labor that is frequently used within coaching staffs with regard to recruiting, especially if a program works an extended recruiting zone or separate recruiting zones.

I think Planz has the boys playing very hard. He is a high character coach who is bringing good kids into the program. As mentioned, some of these good kids just are not very good football players. We have been able to compete in a few games and make it competitive on the players heart and effort but then get run down and out manned. Scheme -- The offense lacks identity, our QB was very good in a run and shoot, Money Manziel type of offense in HS - with the speed of the CCIW game this has not translated. Often times he looks to make big run around plays when what we really need is to hit the open 5 yard hitch route or hand the ball off and not call his number. Our OL looks undersized but they play their asses off and fight for their teammates. We have a really big TE who is a very good player. The defense has played very sound football, and often with offensive turnovers had to play with their back against the wall.

I think it's all well and good to talk about schemes and identity and stuff like that, but I nevertheless agree with USee's bottom line:

I don't think Elmhurst's problems are "adjustment" related. They were in the game at half against Wheaton and leading IWU mainly because they played hard, were well coached, and got some big plays against both (long pass play vs Wheaton, turnovers against both). In the end they lost big because both of those teams are significantly better than Elmhurst and no adjustments were going to cover that up. If IWU and Wheaton didn't turn the ball over those games would have been over at halftime.

The Elmhurst coaches have their players prepared and those kids play hard, its easy to see that. They are just playing against better teams.

If you step onto the field with players who are clearly better than those of your opponent, you're usually going to win the game. We can overcomplicate this sport sometimes, but it's really that simple.

[79jaybird]

Good points Greg/GoIrish and agree.

Read the latest edition of EC's newspaper The Leader yesterday.  Ugh!  Some mighty sanctions being handed to Elmhurst.   Without going into too much detail,  looks like EC is possibly going to have to vacate 4 CCIW titles (in multiple sports), including their 2012 football championship,  2 years probation, and a fine.   Seems the problem originated when Elmhurst had a transition in their Presidency (Ray out and before Van Aiken arrived), and some funds were improperly used.

Again, as an Alum I hope this gets cleared up quickly and Elmhurst can get back to a high level of learning/respectability on the playing fields.

[ncc_fan]

Here's the article.

[Gregory Sager]

Two thoughts:

1) That is a really well-written article. It's thorough, objective, and well-constructed. It's very good by any journalistic standards, and fantastic by student-newspaper standards. As a former college newspaper editor, I notice things like that.

2) The Elmhurst administration goes to great lengths to pin all of the blame on the (I assume former) director of financial aid, and for the most part that seems plausible. But blaming the lack of response to the NCAA's warning letter on the transition in the president's office strikes me as being transparent excuse-making, and it's not a good excuse at that. Whether the president who received that letter was the outgoing president or the interim president makes no difference. You don't show up at the office every day to pick your nose while marking time waiting for the new president to be appointed. You do the job you're hired to do. One of those two guys didn't do that job properly by heeding the warning in that letter from the NCAA -- and now Elmhurst College is suffering for his negligence.