FB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[Kovo]

Would love to see a NCC v. SJU home and away OOC matchup over the next couple of years.  Would be great for both schools to have quality OOC opponents and a great experience.  Let's get our ADs on that!  Respect.

Yes!  It would be great for both programs.  Much better that some of the cupcakes SJU has been scheduling.

Agree and disagree from both sides.   The NCAA selection process makes it pretty difficult to schedule a non conference game like that.   One of these two teams would take a loss into conference play.  Now there's no margin for error and you must sweep the rest of your games to get to the playoffs since it was pretty clear that two loss teams don't get in.  With St. Thomas on your schedule and Wheaton, Illinois Wesleyan, etc on our schedule, it just doesn't make sense, even if we would all love to see it.

Absolutely correct sir.  I having been saying it for years.  With the selection process as it is, we are better off playing a nine game schedule than scheduling a tough out of conference opponent.
With WashU joining the CCIW, I would love to see NCC dump the non-conference game and have two bye weeks to stay healthy for the playoffs. 

By getting to the second round we are playing our 12th game this season.  If we can somehow find a way to win, game 13 is on the horizon.  How many games does a D3 football team need?

Kovo, you and I have been having this debate for years.  I certainly understand your point of view, but the primary reason #6 SJU was on the road with only one three point loss to the #4 team in the country is that they had a weak out of conference schedule.  I know that University of Wisconsin is in DI, but they are struggling to crack into the Top 4.  Schedule matters.  North Central is good enough to compete with every other school in the country.  It should not be concerned about home and aways against Top 20 competition.  A win in those games along with an 8-1 conference record assures them of strong playoff consideration.  The worst case scenario is a key injury in one of those games (e.g., Wenger at ONU), but that could just as easily happen when playing weak competitors.  The debate continues.  Would love to get you here for a playoff game yet this fall.

We will have to agree to disagree on this one.  Using your D1 example, if Wisconsin wins out they will be in the playoffs.  Should they have been brave like Florida State and opened with Alabama and lost the game as well as their QB, ruining their season?  FSU doesn't look real smart right now.

You only have to go back to 2015 when NCC lost to a Joe Callahan led Wesley team by one point, which effectively knocked us out of Pool C consideration.  Wesley went on to the quarters that year while we stayed home.  The committee didn't give a wit about our SOS given the fact we had 3 losses (Wisconsin Platteville being the other non-con loss that year, I believe in OT).  Those games don't do anything for you when you already have Wheaton and IWU on your schedule along with improving programs like Carthage.

[Stagg Again!!]

Would love to see a NCC v. SJU home and away OOC matchup over the next couple of years.  Would be great for both schools to have quality OOC opponents and a great experience.  Let's get our ADs on that!  Respect.

Yes!  It would be great for both programs.  Much better that some of the cupcakes SJU has been scheduling.

Agree and disagree from both sides.   The NCAA selection process makes it pretty difficult to schedule a non conference game like that.   One of these two teams would take a loss into conference play.  Now there’s no margin for error and you must sweep the rest of your games to get to the playoffs since it was pretty clear that two loss teams don’t get in.  With St. Thomas on your schedule and Wheaton, Illinois Wesleyan, etc on our schedule, it just doesn’t make sense, even if we would all love to see it.

Absolutely correct sir.  I having been saying it for years.  With the selection process as it is, we are better off playing a nine game schedule than scheduling a tough out of conference opponent.
With WashU joining the CCIW, I would love to see NCC dump the non-conference game and have two bye weeks to stay healthy for the playoffs. 

By getting to the second round we are playing our 12th game this season.  If we can somehow find a way to win, game 13 is on the horizon.  How many games does a D3 football team need?

Kovo, you and I have been having this debate for years.  I certainly understand your point of view, but the primary reason #6 SJU was on the road with only one three point loss to the #4 team in the country is that they had a weak out of conference schedule.  I know that University of Wisconsin is in DI, but they are struggling to crack into the Top 4.  Schedule matters.  North Central is good enough to compete with every other school in the country.  It should not be concerned about home and aways against Top 20 competition.  A win in those games along with an 8-1 conference record assures them of strong playoff consideration.  The worst case scenario is a key injury in one of those games (e.g., Wenger at ONU), but that could just as easily happen when playing weak competitors.  The debate continues.  Would love to get you here for a playoff game yet this fall.

We will have to agree to disagree on this one.  Using your D1 example, if Wisconsin wins out they will be in the playoffs.  Should they have been brave like Florida State and opened with Alabama and lost the game as well as their QB, ruining their season?  FSU doesn't look real smart right now.

You only have to go back to 2015 when NCC lost to a Joe Callahan led Wesley team by one point, which effectively knocked us out of Pool C consideration.  Wesley went on to the quarters that year while we stayed home.  The committee didn't give a wit about our SOS given the fact we had 3 losses (Wisconsin Platteville being the other non-con loss that year, I believe in OT).  Those games don't do anything for you when you already have Wheaton and IWU on your schedule along with improving programs like Carthage.

I don’t think the Cardinals have to go crazy and play Alabama in their only OOC game!  ... and one Top 20 OOC opponent is more than enough.

[wm4]

Sadly, the D3 system is not set up to encourage strong OOC games.  There should be a bunch more quality OOC games, particularly here in the Midwest.  We have the MIAC, IIAC, WIAC and CCIW all genearlly within a 6 hour drive, and a ton of good teams.  We shouldn't have to wait for a lucky bracket draw to see a MIAC/CCIW game, then a WIAC/CCIW game.  But there is zero reward for doing so in the current system.  I applaud UWW for going OOC with IWU and CM; it's good for the game but torpedoed their playoff chances.  UWO/JC and UMHB/Lin were bold as well.

As long as we have this playoff system, I don't see much changing.  The top teams want to win their conference and get through their OOC games with a couple wins on warm Saturdays in September, mostly against bottom feeders of other conferences. 

[formerd3db]

Sadly, the D3 system is not set up to encourage strong OOC games.  There should be a bunch more quality OOC games, particularly here in the Midwest.  We have the MIAC, IIAC, WIAC and CCIW all genearlly within a 6 hour drive, and a ton of good teams.  We shouldn't have to wait for a lucky bracket draw to see a MIAC/CCIW game, then a WIAC/CCIW game.  But there is zero reward for doing so in the current system.  I applaud UWW for going OOC with IWU and CM; it's good for the game but torpedoed their playoff chances.  UWO/JC and UMHB/Lin were bold as well.

As long as we have this playoff system, I don't see much changing.  The top teams want to win their conference and get through their OOC games with a couple wins on warm Saturdays in September, mostly against bottom feeders of other conferences.

I agree.  I've been of that opinion for many years.  While the obvious goal is to win your conference and obtain the Automatic Bid, when your conference has been down overall like our MIAA has been for several years now, not playing tougher non-conference opponents does not help you when playoff time arrives.  I don't see that changing in the near future either.

[Pat Coleman]

Over there, though, at least Hope is looking to upgrade its schedule. The crossover games with the NACC have only been good for teams' winning percentages, though, not their national competitiveness.

[Kovo]

Yes, Stagg, but we better win that game.  Wheaton hasn't lost a non-conference game since 2002, so that won't help our Pool C chances if we don't get the AQ.

And, since 2012 NCC has lost four non-conference games (3 to WIAC schools and one to Wesley).  I don't see how that has helped the program.

[wally_wabash]

Would love to see a NCC v. SJU home and away OOC matchup over the next couple of years.  Would be great for both schools to have quality OOC opponents and a great experience.  Let's get our ADs on that!  Respect.

Yes!  It would be great for both programs.  Much better that some of the cupcakes SJU has been scheduling.

Agree and disagree from both sides.   The NCAA selection process makes it pretty difficult to schedule a non conference game like that.   One of these two teams would take a loss into conference play.  Now there's no margin for error and you must sweep the rest of your games to get to the playoffs since it was pretty clear that two loss teams don't get in.  With St. Thomas on your schedule and Wheaton, Illinois Wesleyan, etc on our schedule, it just doesn't make sense, even if we would all love to see it.

Absolutely correct sir.  I having been saying it for years.  With the selection process as it is, we are better off playing a nine game schedule than scheduling a tough out of conference opponent.
With WashU joining the CCIW, I would love to see NCC dump the non-conference game and have two bye weeks to stay healthy for the playoffs. 

I wonder if the players would prefer to not play a 10th regular season game.  I suspect this would be a very unpopular opinion in a locker room. 

I do agree with your point about scheduling upper crust teams.  North Central doesn't need it.  Sometimes I see people say that the AQ system allows teams the freedom to schedule games like NCC vs. St. John's because the loser can still qualify by winning their league.  But it's not exactly a zero-risk situation.  Teams can qualify by winning their league whether they play Mount Union or Presentation in their non-league game(s).  That part of the equation doesn't change.  Playing and losing a tough game like that though certainly does take away the at-large avenue, though.  From my POV, there's not a lot of upside to going all out in your non-league schedule.  All of that said, I do think it's better to play a full schedule than to deliberately not play your allotment of 10 games.  Were I on a regional advisory committee and North Central lost a CCIW game and it was a known fact that they purposefully didn't attempt to schedule their non-league game, I'd bury them in the rankings and basically disqualify them from at-large consideration.   Just not scheduling the OOC game because you don't feel like it isn't in the spirit of fair play. 

[formerd3db]

Over there, though, at least Hope is looking to upgrade its schedule. The crossover games with the NACC have only been good for teams' winning percentages, though, not their national competitiveness.

Good points, Pat.  The recent MIAA contracts for games with the CCIW schools and now the NACC certainly have been a positive for the league in some aspects.  Personally, I would like to see Hope return to playing Wabash, DePauw, Wheaton, etc., although I doubt the league will allow our teams to go back to individual scheduling non-conference games of their choice.  If Hope can't beat a team like Monmouth (and I don't want to go back to that debate some of us had at the beginning of the season, , nor am I intending to disrespect Monmouth at all, as they are a tremendously improved and good team as compared to what they were years ago, seriously), then I think the current trend, as you have pointed out above, will continue. 

There are, perhaps other factors that contribute to a portion of this less overall national competitiveness in football in the MIAA, which some of us have discussed in recent years (DII and increase in NAIA scholarship schools competitive recruiting in our region, individual school policies as to how they award the academic and other non-athletic aid, of course, aside from the standard financial need based system that all the schools compute, etc.).  All that said, on occasion in recent years, Trine has obviously been an example of where a program has an exceptional span above the "current norm", which is cyclic as we all know over time in any league.

It will be interesting to see how far Trine can go this year and, if they go farther than their run a few short years ago in the mid-2000s, I will be even more impressed with them than I am now (and more optimistic since if they can do that, then our other MIAA schools should be able to do the same. Hope has made tremendous improvement the past two years obviously and we are enthusiastic that will only continue as we press on to the "next tier", hopefully (no pun intended).   

Thanks for the usual good coverage of the playoffs, Pat (and your staff too, of course).

[formerd3db]

Great commentary, as usual, Wally.

[HScoach]

Assuming an outsider is allowed to jump into this discussion, in my opinion it depends completely on the team's goals and their conference.   

If the team is legitimately trying to climb to the top of D3 and plays in a weak conference that they absolutely dominate, then that team would be well served by playing a really tough OOC game to gauge where they stand and to prep for the future playoffs.  Without the OOC test, this is a team that could get drilled in the playoffs simply because they're facing a team so much better than anything they've seen before. 

If the team plays in a really competitive conference like the CCIW, WIAC, MIAC, etc there is no reason to push themselves further with an tough OOC game.   Their conference will season them for the playoffs and all a tough opener does is potentially saddle them with a loss that could keep them out of the playoffs if they slip up in conference.   Or cost them an easier seed if they win the AQ. 

It's easy to sit here and say what all these schools should do with their OOC schedules, but if I was the AD at a school in the CCIW I'd be trying to schedule an above average team from a historically weak conference.   That team wouldn't likely be able to actually beat us on the field, but would boost my schedule strength as they're likely to finish above 500.   The last thing I'd do is schedule a lower level team from a stellar conference like the WIAC as those teams are usually a lot better than their record.

[miac952]

Nothing really important to add here, other than to say that was a very professional and well run webstream of the game on Saturday. Especially, when you consider the traffic I bet it got, and the challenges with weather.

I think North Central can make a go of this in the 2nd round with UWO. Should be a good one.

[Gregory Sager]

From my POV, there's not a lot of upside to going all out in your non-league schedule.  All of that said, I do think it's better to play a full schedule than to deliberately not play your allotment of 10 games.  Were I on a regional advisory committee and North Central lost a CCIW game and it was a known fact that they purposefully didn't attempt to schedule their non-league game, I'd bury them in the rankings and basically disqualify them from at-large consideration.

Yep. That 11-point percentage difference between 8-1 (.889) and 9-1 (.900) is all the legitimate excuse that the committee would need to freeze out a team that deliberately avoided playing a tenth game.

Just not scheduling the OOC game because you don't feel like it isn't in the spirit of fair play.

It would be counterproductive for the program in general as well. You're right that it would be an unpopular decision in the locker room, but I suspect that it would be unpopular on the recruiting trail as well. Don't think that other CCIW coaching staffs wouldn't use that against North Central. More than anything else, kids want to play football, not be told by the coach sitting in the kid's living room that the team's season is strategically shortened so that it can maximize its chances of qualifying for the playoffs if it doesn't win the league.

[Kovo]

From my POV, there's not a lot of upside to going all out in your non-league schedule.  All of that said, I do think it's better to play a full schedule than to deliberately not play your allotment of 10 games.  Were I on a regional advisory committee and North Central lost a CCIW game and it was a known fact that they purposefully didn't attempt to schedule their non-league game, I'd bury them in the rankings and basically disqualify them from at-large consideration.

Yep. That 11-point percentage difference between 8-1 (.889) and 9-1 (.900) is all the legitimate excuse that the committee would need to freeze out a team that deliberately avoided playing a tenth game.

Just not scheduling the OOC game because you don't feel like it isn't in the spirit of fair play.

It would be counterproductive for the program in general as well. You're right that it would be an unpopular decision in the locker room, but I suspect that it would be unpopular on the recruiting trail as well. Don't think that other CCIW coaching staffs wouldn't use that against North Central. More than anything else, kids want to play football, not be told by the coach sitting in the kid's living room that the team's season is strategically shortened so that it can maximize its chances of qualifying for the playoffs if it doesn't win the league.

That's one reason.  But of equal importance is the health of the team with two byes, and the opportunity to get ahead in your school work since exams at NCC generally occur during the playoffs.  To sit in a kids living room and say you can go to X school and play ten games or come to NCC where we play a nine game schedule so we can focus on what is important the playoffs, and play your 10th, 11th or 12th game in the tournament may have some appeal. 

Considering NCC has made the playoffs seven of the past ten years, the concept making the tournament is not far fetched.

[formerd3db]

Excellent points and well said both HS and GS.

[ncc_fan]

And, since 2012 NCC has lost four non-conference games (3 to WIAC schools and one to Wesley).  I don't see how that has helped the program.

Hey, that 2012 loss to UWLAX gave me the opportunity to visit the Cal Lutheran and Linfield campuses for the first time!