FB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[Redmen96]

Congrats to Son Of Tailgator  for making the All American Team.

[Gregory Sager]

Well the Purple Raiders did it again.  I don't think this "surprised" anybody.  Probably the most uplifting/sentimental part of the game was knowing that this was Coach Brez's last game leading the Warhawks.  He will be missed.    I was hoping he would have been able to win the big game as his parting event.

"When will somebody take this team down"  RedmenFB44 I'm with you on this one.  I feel that something has to be done.  I know and have heard all the pro's/con's and reasons why Mt. Union is allowed to stay in D-3, but 8 out of 11 years?
Sheesh!  that is utter domination.
D-3  Mt. Union defeated UWW
D-2  Grand Valley ST. defeated NW Missouri St.
D-1??  Who cares?   

Pat,  would the NCAA consider  having Mt. Union try a season or two at the Division II level?  As somewhat of a pilot program to see how they would fare.

Come on, Jaybird. First of all, you're missing the point of D3. There's no such thing as being "allowed to stay" in this division. If you don't violate the rules, you can't be forced out by anyone. Second, you do realize that football is only one sport out of many sponsored by NCAA D3 and the OAC, right? Mount Union participates in eighteen of them, nine men's and nine women's. I can guarantee that after a quick perusal of the OAC website you will agree with me that there is nothing else besides football that even resembles an athletic dynasty on the Mount Union campus.

Here's how the Mount fared in the ten-school OAC in their six fall sports this autumn:
* football -- 1st
* men's soccer -- 9th
* men's x-country -- 2nd
* volleyball -- 4th (tie)
* women's soccer -- 6th
* women's x-country -- 3rd

... and here's how the Mount has fared in the OAC's last five years' worth of all-sports standings for the entire school year:
2005-06: men 2nd, women 5th
2004-05: men 5th, women 5th
2003-04: men 4th, women 5th
2002-03: men 1st, women 4th
2001-02: men 2nd, women 4th

Mount Union is an above-average school in terms of athletics within a well-respected but hardly across-the-board-dominant conference within D3. And that's all. The Purple Raiders are most emphatically not a monster anywhere but on the gridiron.

Yes, something has to be done about Mount Union winning the D3 football national title every year. You know what that something is? Beat Mount Union on the football field. That's what has to be done. There's no cheap cop-out way to dethrone them via getting the school kicked out of the division, so stop looking for one.

Or, if you insist upon raising some sort of fruitless hue-and-cry about getting Mount Union kicked out of D3, then be fair about it and try getting North Central kicked out of D3 as well for dominating in men's cross-country ... and Kenyon, too, for dominating in men's swimming.

[NCC_alum62]

It is possible for a school to participate in another division in one sport and participate in a different division in some of its other sports. Colorado College plays D-I hockey and D-III football.  Of course the football team was independant.  But I don't know how much that matters to the NCAA.  Notre Dame is indy in Football, but Big East in Basketball. 

I'm not saying that it would be more satisfying to see Mount jump up in division, but I would love to see them play some other opponents in higher divisions to guage thier talent.

I would rather see teams figure out ways to beat them (it has been done, only once in the reg season the last decade or so, but a few in the play-offs)  Recruiting must be touch...I mean aside from their winning tradition, nice facilities, and (from pictures) a beautiful campus I can't see why anyone would want to go there...(Its hard to hide the sarcasim)  Its going to take a another conference recruiting the best of those that don't go D-I, D-IAA, and D-II to get the talent and the attittude, I don't think teams that play Mt. Union in the semis or finals are ever scared (St John Fisher and Capital played them extremely tough from what I've read and seen.  A couple more quality guys here and there at the skilled positions and in the trenches and one of those teams might have knocked them off this year.

[Pat Coleman]

You cannot play in a "higher" division in football or basketball and play D-III in everything else.

[usee]

Well the Purple Raiders did it again.  I don't think this "surprised" anybody.  Probably the most uplifting/sentimental part of the game was knowing that this was Coach Brez's last game leading the Warhawks.  He will be missed.    I was hoping he would have been able to win the big game as his parting event.

"When will somebody take this team down"  RedmenFB44 I'm with you on this one.  I feel that something has to be done.  I know and have heard all the pro's/con's and reasons why Mt. Union is allowed to stay in D-3, but 8 out of 11 years?
Sheesh!  that is utter domination.
D-3  Mt. Union defeated UWW
D-2  Grand Valley ST. defeated NW Missouri St.
D-1??  Who cares?   

Pat,  would the NCAA consider  having Mt. Union try a season or two at the Division II level?  As somewhat of a pilot program to see how they would fare.

Come on, Jaybird. First of all, you're missing the point of D3. There's no such thing as being "allowed to stay" in this division. If you don't violate the rules, you can't be forced out by anyone. Second, you do realize that football is only one sport out of many sponsored by NCAA D3 and the OAC, right? Mount Union participates in eighteen of them, nine men's and nine women's. I can guarantee that after a quick perusal of the OAC website you will agree with me that there is nothing else besides football that even resembles an athletic dynasty on the Mount Union campus.

Here's how the Mount fared in the ten-school OAC in their six fall sports this autumn:
* football -- 1st
* men's soccer -- 9th
* men's x-country -- 2nd
* volleyball -- 4th (tie)
* women's soccer -- 6th
* women's x-country -- 3rd

... and here's how the Mount has fared in the OAC's last five years' worth of all-sports standings for the entire school year:
2005-06: men 2nd, women 5th
2004-05: men 5th, women 5th
2003-04: men 4th, women 5th
2002-03: men 1st, women 4th
2001-02: men 2nd, women 4th

Mount Union is an above-average school in terms of athletics within a well-respected but hardly across-the-board-dominant conference within D3. And that's all. The Purple Raiders are most emphatically not a monster anywhere but on the gridiron.

Yes, something has to be done about Mount Union winning the D3 football national title every year. You know what that something is? Beat Mount Union on the football field. That's what has to be done. There's no cheap cop-out way to dethrone them via getting the school kicked out of the division, so stop looking for one.

Or, if you insist upon raising some sort of fruitless hue-and-cry about getting Mount Union kicked out of D3, then be fair about it and try getting North Central kicked out of D3 as well for dominating in men's cross-country ... and Kenyon, too, for dominating in men's swimming.

well said greg. I couldn't agree more. There is one place to settle this, on the field. MUC has raised the bar and some schools have taken a run at it. more should try. the CCIW needs to up its game to compete on the gridiron as they have been able to do on the hardwood.

[ncc58]

In 2005, Mount Union beat UWW in the Stagg Bowl in a close game. This season, Mount Union had three games decided by less than 14 points. So, it's not impossible to beat MUC. Capital played MUC in a close game, and Capital beat North Central convincingly. MUC plays by the rules and belongs in Div III. It's up to the other schools to get their programs up to that level.

The comment was made during the broadcast that UWW scheduled St. Johns and MUC in the 2003 season and that told them where they needed to get to. UWW couldn't quite get there. But that doesn't mean MUC needs to leave Div III. If there were wasn't a Div III, there might e complaints about UWW or St. John Fisher  ...

[HScoach]

While Mount certainly gets more than it's share of quality athletes, the difference between MUC and the rest of D3 is the coach, not the players.  When LK finally retires, then the rest of D3 can quit worrying about the Raiders.

Going position-by-position between WWW and MUC, there were very few wide margins in talent.  Here's my uneducated comparison:

O-Line:  This might have been MUC's best O-line ever, but WWW's line is very, very good too, and every bit as big as Mount's.  Slight advantage to MUC.

RB:  Kmic and Beaver are both very good RB's.  Both very similar in stature and ability, but Kehres gets more versatility out of Kmic.  Slight advantage to MUC.

TE:  This one isn't even close.  Schmitt is an absolute stud for WWW.  Can't imagine why they don't get him the ball on shorter stuff more often.  Mount has never had a TE with his ability.

WR:  Garcon is best WR on the field,  WWW's Stanley is 90+% of Pierre.  And beyond Pierre, there is a big drop off to the other Mount WR's production, where as WWW has an excellent #2 WR in Mrkvicka and overall a better WR core.  Slight advantage Whitewater.

QB:  The opinion of this postion changed after the Stagg.  Going in I thought Jorris has the best arm, but has been fighting tendenitis and a pinched nerve so he's out of the equation.  That puts the match-up as a senior 2-time WIAC Player of the Year in Justin Jacobs versus an untested sophomore in Greg Micheli that only runs the option.  Huge pre-game advantage to Whitewater.  After seeing Jacobs make questionable decisions and have happy feet in crunchtime for the 2nd Stagg and watching Micheli excell with the full playbook, advantage MUC.

D-Line:  Both lines are very, very good.  Stickley and Kleepe get all the attention but both lines are dominant.  Overall, I like Mount's line because of their speed, where as WWW's line is huge, but not as athletic which works fine because of the great WWW linebackers.  Slight advantage MUC.

LB:  Rees and DeRiggi for MUC have played great this season, but the WWW LB's are a special group.  Especially their new MLB that transferred in from Ill St (?).  Advantage Whitewater.

DB:  Neither team has a true "shut-down corner" but both teams have been very productive in pass defense.  Mount has a lot more depth and looked better in run support than WWW's secondary.  Advantage MUC.

Coaching:  This is where the real difference lies.  For the 2nd year in a row, Kehres completely baffles the Whitewater defense by changing his offense for the Stagg Bowl.  Last year it was more subtle in using split back formations and throwing to the TE.  This year it's very a drastic change by throwing it for 200+ yards with their "running QB".  HUGE ADVANTAGE TO MUC.



In my humble opinion, MUC won the 2006 Stagg Bowl not because their players superior to Whitewater's, they won because their coaching was superior.

[Redmen96]

Lloyd: What are the chances of a guy like you and a girl like me... ending up together?
Mary: Well, that's pretty difficult to say.
Lloyd: Hit me with it! I've come a long way to see you, Mary. The least you can do is level with me. What are my chances?
Mary: Not good.
Lloyd: You mean, not good like one out of a hundred?
Mary: I'd say more like one out of a million.
[pause]
Lloyd: So you're telling me there's a chance.

[usee]

While Mount certainly gets more than it's share of quality athletes, the difference between MUC and the rest of D3 is the coach, not the players.  When LK finally retires, then the rest of D3 can quit worrying about the Raiders.

Going position-by-position between WWW and MUC, there were very few wide margins in talent.  Here's my uneducated comparison:

O-Line:  This might have been MUC's best O-line ever, but WWW's line is very, very good too, and every bit as big as Mount's.  Slight advantage to MUC.

RB:  Kmic and Beaver are both very good RB's.  Both very similar in stature and ability, but Kehres gets more versatility out of Kmic.  Slight advantage to MUC.

TE:  This one isn't even close.  Schmitt is an absolute stud for WWW.  Can't imagine why they don't get him the ball on shorter stuff more often.  Mount has never had a TE with his ability.

WR:  Garcon is best WR on the field,  WWW's Stanley is 90+% of Pierre.  And beyond Pierre, there is a big drop off to the other Mount WR's production, where as WWW has an excellent #2 WR in Mrkvicka and overall a better WR core.  Slight advantage Whitewater.

QB:  The opinion of this postion changed after the Stagg.  Going in I thought Jorris has the best arm, but has been fighting tendenitis and a pinched nerve so he's out of the equation.  That puts the match-up as a senior 2-time WIAC Player of the Year in Justin Jacobs versus an untested sophomore in Greg Micheli that only runs the option.  Huge pre-game advantage to Whitewater.  After seeing Jacobs make questionable decisions and have happy feet in crunchtime for the 2nd Stagg and watching Micheli excell with the full playbook, advantage MUC.

D-Line:  Both lines are very, very good.  Stickley and Kleepe get all the attention but both lines are dominant.  Overall, I like Mount's line because of their speed, where as WWW's line is huge, but not as athletic which works fine because of the great WWW linebackers.  Slight advantage MUC.

LB:  Rees and DeRiggi for MUC have played great this season, but the WWW LB's are a special group.  Especially their new MLB that transferred in from Ill St (?).  Advantage Whitewater.

DB:  Neither team has a true "shut-down corner" but both teams have been very productive in pass defense.  Mount has a lot more depth and looked better in run support than WWW's secondary.  Advantage MUC.

Coaching:  This is where the real difference lies.  For the 2nd year in a row, Kehres completely baffles the Whitewater defense by changing his offense for the Stagg Bowl.  Last year it was more subtle in using split back formations and throwing to the TE.  This year it's very a drastic change by throwing it for 200+ yards with their "running QB".  HUGE ADVANTAGE TO MUC.



In my humble opinion, MUC won the 2006 Stagg Bowl not because their players superior to Whitewater's, they won because their coaching was superior.

HSC,

excellent analysis except for one minor point. On Oline comparison you say "slight advantage to MUC". that is more like a huge chasm. No knock on UWW Oline because that is an excellent group. comparable to many of the great augie Olines I have seen. but the MUC Oline is as good as I have seen at the d3 level. they made all of the best dlineman in the country look really average this year (trusnick, studebaker, kleppe), riddled several top 20 defenses, and allowed the best back in the nation to dance into opposing secondary's untouched over and over again. Similar to LK,  i really don't think that group gets enough credit. You don't run for 300+ yds on all those playoff teams without an enormous advantage up front.

[Mr. Ypsi]

hscoach,

Your analysis is spot on, but I wonder if LK's 'genius' would have found a way to manifest itself if Garcon was not 100%?  I picked WW partly to be different, partly because I talked myself into thinking they had two advantages they didn't have last year, but mainly because I (obviously mistakenly) thought Garcon would still be hampered by his broken hand.  Garcon had 2 TDs (and gets an 'assist' on a third, since he reached about the 5 yard line) - without a healthy Garcon, it MIGHT have been a 17-14 or even 14-16 game!

Alas, woulda, coulda, shoulda just gets me a loss!

What scares me is that Garcon is back for another year, and Kmic and Micheli for TWO more.  Assuming the lines are as good as ever, MUC's team next year MAY be their best yet!

[79jaybird]

Greg, good insight and thank you.  I was coming from the standpoint of "maintaining parity".  For example, this year in the CCIW was really exciting with 3 principle contenders and 2 "outside" contenders making each week very exciting.

[ncc58]

What scares me is that Garcon is back for another year, and Kmic and Micheli for TWO more.  Assuming the lines are as good as ever, MUC's team next year MAY be their best yet!

I was thinking the same thing. LK has created quite a program. He continues to attract top talent despite the competition in Ohio. It's incredbile that anyone can even manage a program with 200 players.

But LK could retire today, and Mount Union would probably continue to have great success  for the next decade. They would certainly not struggle next season. Garcon is better than any receiver in the CCIW, Kmic better than any running back. Micheli is as good any QB. Now, with those three on the same team, the offense is pretty set.

[ncc58]

5 – Would limiting a D3 school to 100-120 players be good or bad.

We usually don't have the roster size discussion until August. 

[FormerCard]

Does anyone know when Don Hansens (football gazette) all-american teams come out?  Or any other publications?

[HScoach]

... Assuming the lines are as good as ever, MUC's team next year MAY be their best yet!

Officially they lose 3 seniors, one of which is the Jason Lewis, the 2-time OAC Linemen of the Year.  But the other 2 seniors began 2006 as back-ups and are starting because the guys in front of them were both gone with leg injuries.  And both of the injured guys will be back for 2007.  So if you look at the season ending O-line, they return only 2 of 5.  But if you look at who started the 2006 season, they return 4 of 5.  And the 2 returning juniors were both 1st team All-OAC this year.

Sorry to rain on your 2007 parade, but Mount is going to have a great O-line next year too.


The real losses for MUC to re-fill are RT - Jason Lewis as mentioned above and DE - Justin Stickley.  At every other position vacated by graduation there stands an experienced back-up which is expected to fill right in.