FB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[formerd3db]

GS:
Indeed, I totally understand where you were going with this.  I should have clarified my answer somewhat because I was talking about all rivalries.  My point, though, was that I disagree with him somewhat in that even some longtime non-conference rivalries could/would go on even if lopsided.  You have cited some excellent examples, yet there are others that could continue on as well were they able to be continuously scheduled, yet they are not due to financial/travel reasons rather than simply "non-competitive" aspects that FormerCard is referring to.  I am not saying his opinion is not valid because it is in many cases I'm sure.  Rather, again, like you, I was just pointing out that it is not totally the way he indicated (although I may have misread his intent and he may have been saying the same as us i.e. "...some, but not all...etc.).   

[79jaybird]

The Monon  Bell, Cortaca Jug, Little Brass Bell, Old Oaken Bucket, etc. are traveling trophy games where both sides are playing for something- in addition to local bragging rights.

The point I was making is that Elmhurst/Benedictine have been playing a long time based on proximity, and now that Elmhurst is starting to climb the ranks I think they should pursue a NC team that is similar in status & at that rank.

Over the years, Elmhurst has played Aurora, Bendictine, Lake Forest, Ripon, Carroll, etc.  that are local NC games.

[FormerCard]

Hey G,  hope you are doing well. 

I have asked/urged/inquired EC coaches and personnel why we continue to play Benedictine who is obviously not as strong a foe as what the CCIW has to offer.  The response I get is "It's a good rivalry, close and both sides don't have to travel far to make the game."  And though I don't agree with this answer, I let it go there.

Lets be honest.   A rivalry is only a rivalry when there is competition.  I think a Non-Conf. game against a Monmouth, or Aurora would be a better move than BU.   Aurora is obviously close and playing a team like Monmouth would help to prepare for a passing attack.

FormerCard:

I can see your point and I think for most situations you are right.  However, I would respectfully disagree with you that there are, indeed, some situations in which a longtime, very historic rivalry remains so even though there is not much competition for many years in a row.  I know there are some in our MIAA because some of the schools have been playing since before the turn of the century (i.e. the previous century pre-1900 ) and even though a couple of the schools have been losing to the others in their rivalry quite consistently for many years.  So my point is, that in some instances, rivalries can and do exist despite "the lopsidedness". 

I guess there are probably situations where a historic rivalry would remain significant regardless of one team running the tables for 10 straight years, but probably not in Division 3 Non-conference football.

I have to strongly disagree with you on this one. I can think of two non-conference D3 football rivalries right off of the top of my head that could easily survive a ten-year winning streak by one team or the other:

* the Monon Bell rivalry: Wabash (NCAC) vs. DePauw (SCAC)

* the Cortaca Cup rivalry: Cortland State (NJAC) vs. Ithaca (E8)

When there is a Cup or a Bell attached to the Rivalry, that would definitely throw a curveball into my theory.  I did not take that into consideration as I was not aware of those two Non-Conf rivalries.   I think my point is valid in most cases of small college football though.   

Has either of those rivalries seen a 10 year stretch with lopsided victories? 

[Gregory Sager]

The Monon  Bell, Cortaca Jug, Little Brass Bell, Old Oaken Bucket, etc. are traveling trophy games where both sides are playing for something- in addition to local bragging rights.

Trophy considerations are irrelevant to the purpose of refuting FormerCard's point. He made a blanket statement about non-conference D3 football rivalries, and I provided two legitimate counterexamples.

Hey G,  hope you are doing well. 

I have asked/urged/inquired EC coaches and personnel why we continue to play Benedictine who is obviously not as strong a foe as what the CCIW has to offer.  The response I get is "It's a good rivalry, close and both sides don't have to travel far to make the game."  And though I don't agree with this answer, I let it go there.

Lets be honest.   A rivalry is only a rivalry when there is competition.  I think a Non-Conf. game against a Monmouth, or Aurora would be a better move than BU.   Aurora is obviously close and playing a team like Monmouth would help to prepare for a passing attack.

FormerCard:

I can see your point and I think for most situations you are right.  However, I would respectfully disagree with you that there are, indeed, some situations in which a longtime, very historic rivalry remains so even though there is not much competition for many years in a row.  I know there are some in our MIAA because some of the schools have been playing since before the turn of the century (i.e. the previous century pre-1900 ) and even though a couple of the schools have been losing to the others in their rivalry quite consistently for many years.  So my point is, that in some instances, rivalries can and do exist despite "the lopsidedness". 

I guess there are probably situations where a historic rivalry would remain significant regardless of one team running the tables for 10 straight years, but probably not in Division 3 Non-conference football.

I have to strongly disagree with you on this one. I can think of two non-conference D3 football rivalries right off of the top of my head that could easily survive a ten-year winning streak by one team or the other:

* the Monon Bell rivalry: Wabash (NCAC) vs. DePauw (SCAC)

* the Cortaca Cup rivalry: Cortland State (NJAC) vs. Ithaca (E8)

When there is a Cup or a Bell attached to the Rivalry, that would definitely throw a curveball into my theory.  I did not take that into consideration as I was not aware of those two Non-Conf rivalries.   I think my point is valid in most cases of small college football though.   

Has either of those rivalries seen a 10 year stretch with lopsided victories? 

You really haven't heard of them? Those are probably two of the three biggest rivalries in all of D3 football, with Williams/Amherst being the third.

The Cortaca Jug rivalry, once dubbed by Sports Illustrated as "The Biggest Little Game In America", has been historically dominated by Ithaca, although it's currently very competitive. The Bombers won the Jug nine years in a row from '73 through '81, part of a stretch in which Ithaca won 14 out of 15 Jug games, 17 out of 19, and 20 out of 23 (plus a non-Jug D3 playoff game between the two). That two-decades-plus period of dominance by Ithaca doesn't seem to have taken any of the starch out of the rivalry.

The Monon Bell Classic is a lot more even. The all-time series record between DePauw and Wabash is tied at 53-53-9, but since the Monon Bell was introduced as the rivalry's traveling trophy in '32 DePauw has held a slight edge, 36-33-6. Wabash won seven straight in the pre-Bell era (1921-27), and won the Bell for six straight years ('49 thru '54), while DePauw kept the Bell for a solid decade ('55 thru '64, including two ties in which the Tigers, as current holders of the Bell, were allowed to retain it). Since then, neither school has kept the Bell for more than five years in a row.

Here's the wiki articles on the two rivalries:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cortaca_Jug

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monon_Bell_Classic#Monon_Bell_Classic

[FormerCard]

The Monon  Bell, Cortaca Jug, Little Brass Bell, Old Oaken Bucket, etc. are traveling trophy games where both sides are playing for something- in addition to local bragging rights.

Trophy considerations are irrelevant to the purpose of refuting FormerCard's point. He made a blanket statement about non-conference D3 football rivalries, and I provided two legitimate counterexamples.

Hey G,  hope you are doing well. 

I have asked/urged/inquired EC coaches and personnel why we continue to play Benedictine who is obviously not as strong a foe as what the CCIW has to offer.  The response I get is "It's a good rivalry, close and both sides don't have to travel far to make the game."  And though I don't agree with this answer, I let it go there.

Lets be honest.   A rivalry is only a rivalry when there is competition.  I think a Non-Conf. game against a Monmouth, or Aurora would be a better move than BU.   Aurora is obviously close and playing a team like Monmouth would help to prepare for a passing attack.

FormerCard:

I can see your point and I think for most situations you are right.  However, I would respectfully disagree with you that there are, indeed, some situations in which a longtime, very historic rivalry remains so even though there is not much competition for many years in a row.  I know there are some in our MIAA because some of the schools have been playing since before the turn of the century (i.e. the previous century pre-1900 ) and even though a couple of the schools have been losing to the others in their rivalry quite consistently for many years.  So my point is, that in some instances, rivalries can and do exist despite "the lopsidedness". 

I guess there are probably situations where a historic rivalry would remain significant regardless of one team running the tables for 10 straight years, but probably not in Division 3 Non-conference football.

I have to strongly disagree with you on this one. I can think of two non-conference D3 football rivalries right off of the top of my head that could easily survive a ten-year winning streak by one team or the other:

* the Monon Bell rivalry: Wabash (NCAC) vs. DePauw (SCAC)

* the Cortaca Cup rivalry: Cortland State (NJAC) vs. Ithaca (E8)

When there is a Cup or a Bell attached to the Rivalry, that would definitely throw a curveball into my theory.  I did not take that into consideration as I was not aware of those two Non-Conf rivalries.   I think my point is valid in most cases of small college football though.   

Has either of those rivalries seen a 10 year stretch with lopsided victories? 

You really haven't heard of them? Those are probably two of the three biggest rivalries in all of D3 football, with Williams/Amherst being the third.

The Cortaca Jug rivalry, once dubbed by Sports Illustrated as "The Biggest Little Game In America", has been historically dominated by Ithaca, although it's currently very competitive. The Bombers won the Jug nine years in a row from '73 through '81, part of a stretch in which Ithaca won 14 out of 15 Jug games, 17 out of 19, and 20 out of 23 (plus a non-Jug D3 playoff game between the two). That two-decades-plus period of dominance by Ithaca doesn't seem to have taken any of the starch out of the rivalry.

The Monon Bell Classic is a lot more even. The all-time series record between DePauw and Wabash is tied at 53-53-9, but since the Monon Bell was introduced as the rivalry's traveling trophy in '32 DePauw has held a slight edge, 36-33-6. Wabash won seven straight in the pre-Bell era (1921-27), and won the Bell for six straight years ('49 thru '54), while DePauw kept the Bell for a solid decade ('55 thru '64, including two ties in which the Tigers, as current holders of the Bell, were allowed to retain it). Since then, neither school has kept the Bell for more than five years in a row.

Here's the wiki articles on the two rivalries:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cortaca_Jug

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monon_Bell_Classic#Monon_Bell_Classic

No Gregory, I had not. 

Most of my knowledge in Division 3 football is tied to what I experienced as a player and alumni from North Central and a few good friends I know from other CCIW schools and 3 or 4 other D3 schools in Illinois.     I guess I have been busy with other things and havent discovered the Monon Bell and Cortaca Bell yet.   Maybe it is because I have been only posting for 4 years or so...not sure.

I do appreciate you pointing them out to me and that you were able to provide two counterexamples.

After reviewing the links you posted, I guess the answer to my question is that for one time Ithaca held it for 9 years but that no team has ever won 10 years in a row.

[Gregory Sager]

The Monon  Bell, Cortaca Jug, Little Brass Bell, Old Oaken Bucket, etc. are traveling trophy games where both sides are playing for something- in addition to local bragging rights.

Trophy considerations are irrelevant to the purpose of refuting FormerCard's point. He made a blanket statement about non-conference D3 football rivalries, and I provided two legitimate counterexamples.

Hey G,  hope you are doing well. 

I have asked/urged/inquired EC coaches and personnel why we continue to play Benedictine who is obviously not as strong a foe as what the CCIW has to offer.  The response I get is "It's a good rivalry, close and both sides don't have to travel far to make the game."  And though I don't agree with this answer, I let it go there.

Lets be honest.   A rivalry is only a rivalry when there is competition.  I think a Non-Conf. game against a Monmouth, or Aurora would be a better move than BU.   Aurora is obviously close and playing a team like Monmouth would help to prepare for a passing attack.

FormerCard:

I can see your point and I think for most situations you are right.  However, I would respectfully disagree with you that there are, indeed, some situations in which a longtime, very historic rivalry remains so even though there is not much competition for many years in a row.  I know there are some in our MIAA because some of the schools have been playing since before the turn of the century (i.e. the previous century pre-1900 ) and even though a couple of the schools have been losing to the others in their rivalry quite consistently for many years.  So my point is, that in some instances, rivalries can and do exist despite "the lopsidedness". 

I guess there are probably situations where a historic rivalry would remain significant regardless of one team running the tables for 10 straight years, but probably not in Division 3 Non-conference football.

I have to strongly disagree with you on this one. I can think of two non-conference D3 football rivalries right off of the top of my head that could easily survive a ten-year winning streak by one team or the other:

* the Monon Bell rivalry: Wabash (NCAC) vs. DePauw (SCAC)

* the Cortaca Cup rivalry: Cortland State (NJAC) vs. Ithaca (E8)

When there is a Cup or a Bell attached to the Rivalry, that would definitely throw a curveball into my theory.  I did not take that into consideration as I was not aware of those two Non-Conf rivalries.   I think my point is valid in most cases of small college football though.   

Has either of those rivalries seen a 10 year stretch with lopsided victories? 

You really haven't heard of them? Those are probably two of the three biggest rivalries in all of D3 football, with Williams/Amherst being the third.

The Cortaca Jug rivalry, once dubbed by Sports Illustrated as "The Biggest Little Game In America", has been historically dominated by Ithaca, although it's currently very competitive. The Bombers won the Jug nine years in a row from '73 through '81, part of a stretch in which Ithaca won 14 out of 15 Jug games, 17 out of 19, and 20 out of 23 (plus a non-Jug D3 playoff game between the two). That two-decades-plus period of dominance by Ithaca doesn't seem to have taken any of the starch out of the rivalry.

The Monon Bell Classic is a lot more even. The all-time series record between DePauw and Wabash is tied at 53-53-9, but since the Monon Bell was introduced as the rivalry's traveling trophy in '32 DePauw has held a slight edge, 36-33-6. Wabash won seven straight in the pre-Bell era (1921-27), and won the Bell for six straight years ('49 thru '54), while DePauw kept the Bell for a solid decade ('55 thru '64, including two ties in which the Tigers, as current holders of the Bell, were allowed to retain it). Since then, neither school has kept the Bell for more than five years in a row.

Here's the wiki articles on the two rivalries:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cortaca_Jug

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monon_Bell_Classic#Monon_Bell_Classic

No Gregory, I had not. 

Most of my knowledge in Division 3 football is tied to what I experienced as a player and alumni from North Central and a few good friends I know from other CCIW schools and 3 or 4 other D3 schools in Illinois.     I guess I have been busy with other things and havent discovered the Monon Bell and Cortaca Bell yet.   Maybe it is because I have been only posting for 4 years or so...not sure.

I do appreciate you pointing them out to me and that you were able to provide two counterexamples.

That's really one of the great things about this website, FC -- it introduces all of us to a lot of schools, rivalries, traditions, etc., of which we previously hadn't been aware. We all know how special D3 sports are from our own experiences within our own little corners of it, but most of us just aren't tuned in to the rest of the D3 world, for the same reason that other sports fans aren't: Media and television anonymity. This site helps reduce some of that anonymity.

(I'm probably an exception in that I knew about both of those rivalries before I discovered this site. Since I grew up in central New York and had friends who attended either Cortland State or Ithaca, I knew about the Cortaca Cup. And I have a number of current friends here in the city who are either Wallies (Wabash alumni) or Dannies (DePauw alumni) -- Chicago's got a lot of both. And all that they ever talk about is that stupid Monon Bell. )

I'm not saying that a D3 football fan in Chicagoland is ever going to be as familiar with Ithaca or Wesley or Linfield or St. John's or Mary Hardin-Baylor as he is with Florida or Oklahoma or LSU or USC ... but this site is a step in the right direction as far as raising everyone's D3 football national consciousness is concerned.

[Mugsy]

Looks like Wheaton has filled its final open, non-conference slot for the 2010 & 2011 schedules.  Yet another representative from the MIAA.

The non-conference schedule for 2009:
At Bethel
Concordia U. (Wis)
Hope

For 2010:
At Albion
UW-Platteville
At Olivet

For 2011:
Albion
At UW-Platteville
Olivet

[formerd3db]

GS:

That is right for sure!  This website is such a great tool and asset for that and, as people have said many times here, we are privileged to have this and tremendous thanks/gratitude goes to Pat (and his staff) for even providing us with this opportunity.  Indeed, as you point out, many DIII players would not really know about many of the other DIII schools and their histories were it not for this site.  Except for some of us really "die-hard" crazy, overzealous DIII ex-football players (and fans), most people do not either take the time to find out about some of these interesting, historical facts and tidbits or have no interest in doing so, but rather just play the game.  In my own personal experience, I've noticed that today's players (although obviously not all) seem to fall into the latter categories - although there is nothing wrong with the that.  Rather, I'm just commenting that for me, I've always been interested in the history of college football which involved most of our current day DIII programs and as such I perused the archives, libraries for this info even when I was a player.  I'm always looking when I have the time (even stopping to visit various campuses for these historical aspects on business and/or family trips when I have the time).

Moreover, another great source is the annual NCAA Football Yearbook which has all this info at one's "fingertips" such as the history of the rivaliries, attendance figures, etc., etc.  Anyway, for those who are ever interested in "this stuff", it is fun to discover more and more about the traditions and history behind today's current rivalries and even much more.

[79jaybird]

"Far above Cayuga's Waters with it's waves of blue... Stands our noble Alma Mater glorious to view...    Ithaca is one of the prettiest areas I have been to in the northeast with both Ithaca and Cornell right there.

[formerd3db]

jaybird:

I won't be too far from there this week, but will actually be nearer to St. John Fisher and RPI!  We're leaving tonight or early tomorrow AM for Rochester, NY to see Hope College play in the American Collegiate Hockey Association National Championships - tournament starts tomorrow night and goes through Saturday evening.  Regardless, must dress warm as you well know re: hockey!  

Anyway, hope you are doing well and talk to you later.

P.S.  My apologies, guys, for the hockey plug, but since NY area brought up in this "rivalry" discussion, just thought I'd mention this.

[Gregory Sager]

"Far above Cayuga's Waters with it's waves of blue... Stands our noble Alma Mater glorious to view...    Ithaca is one of the prettiest areas I have been to in the northeast with both Ithaca and Cornell right there.

You got that right. Robert Treman State Park and Buttermilk Falls State Park are spectacular.

jaybird:

I won't be too far from there this week, but will actually be nearer to St. John Fisher and RPI!  We're leaving tonight or early tomorrow AM for Rochester, NY to see Hope College play in the American Collegiate Hockey Association National Championships - tournament starts tomorrow night and goes through Saturday evening.  Regardless, must dress warm as you well know re: hockey!  

Anyway, hope you are doing well and talk to you later.

P.S.  My apologies, guys, for the hockey plug, but since NY area brought up in this "rivalry" discussion, just thought I'd mention this.

Have a garbage plate and a Genny Cream for me, formerd3db!

[usee]

Re scheduling:I am a bit disapponted with the choice of Olivet. I think Wheaton should upgreade their pre-conf schedule and not be afraid to add a Whitewater or keep Bethel on the schedule. I think the CCIW basketball programs get it right by adding traditionally higher ranked regional opponents to their early schedule. The considerations for football are different with injuries and higher travel costs but whitewater s 90 min from wheaton. I wouldn't mind playing 2 WIAC teams and a 3rd like Hope or other traditionally top MIAA team.

[79jaybird]

Olivet is a decent team.. not great like an Ohio Northern or UW school,  but it's not a pushover like some of the schools CCIW teams are playing.

Yes, upstate New York definitely gets my vote as some of the prettiest areas in the  Northeast.  As a hockey player we have played many tournies up that way on up to Canada.

Elmhurst has posted their 2009 schedule which is the same as 2008's just flip flopped. 

[Mugsy]

Re scheduling:I am a bit disapponted with the choice of Olivet. I think Wheaton should upgreade their pre-conf schedule and not be afraid to add a Whitewater or keep Bethel on the schedule. I think the CCIW basketball programs get it right by adding traditionally higher ranked regional opponents to their early schedule. The considerations for football are different with injuries and higher travel costs but whitewater s 90 min from wheaton. I wouldn't mind playing 2 WIAC teams and a 3rd like Hope or other traditionally top MIAA team.

I'm not too thrilled by the choice either.

[matblake]

Re scheduling:I am a bit disapponted with the choice of Olivet. I think Wheaton should upgreade their pre-conf schedule and not be afraid to add a Whitewater or keep Bethel on the schedule. I think the CCIW basketball programs get it right by adding traditionally higher ranked regional opponents to their early schedule. The considerations for football are different with injuries and higher travel costs but whitewater s 90 min from wheaton. I wouldn't mind playing 2 WIAC teams and a 3rd like Hope or other traditionally top MIAA team.

I'm not too thrilled by the choice either.

I'm right there on the bus with you guys.  Why not try to schedule a tough IIAC, WIAC, or keep Bethel on the schedule, or another of the top MIAC teams.  I'd love to see the Thunder play the Johnnies.  And the board would be hopping before that one.