FB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[HScoach]

Newcardfan:

So how do we KNOW that 10-0 Monmouth isn't better than a OAC/CCIW team with 2 losses this year?  Just because the OAC/CCIW have been traditionally stronger?    

What about last year's 9-1 Franklin team from the historically crappy HCAC?    From reputation alone, a 1-loss Franklin wouldn't have been tabbed for the playoffs if the NCAA was trying to take just the top 32 teams.  

Very few people gave Franklin a reasonable chance of beating the Otterbein (the OAC's 2nd place team) on the road.  And no one, myself included, gave Franklin ANY chance of beating 10-0 North Central and making the regional final.  However they did just that.  The automatic qualifier for the lesser conferences allows teams like Franklin to prove their worth on the field.  

One point that I think is over looked when trying to figure out the D3 field is the lack of cross regional games and the vast number of teams (230+) when compared to what we think about D1 football.  If D1 would institute a completely at-large playoff selection, it would be pretty easy to determine the top 8 or 16 teams worthy of a bid because there is a ton of cross-league/region games played.   Each of the conferences have played enough games against the others to get an accurate read on what the best 1 or 2 loss teams are that specific year.  

However in D3, that it's not possible.  How do you evaluate a team in New Jersey against a team in Illinois versus one in California that year?  As fans we easily factor in historical strength of a conference/team but is that accurate enough each year to determine which teams get a chance at playing for a title?  History says the 2nd OAC team is going to win a couple playoff games and is likely to keep winning until they run into Mount Union again.  However that history was wrong last year.   History also says an undefeated CCIW champion would drill into the ground a 1-loss team from the HCAC.  However that didn't happen either.

As a Mount Union fan, I would like to see the best 32 teams selected to make the bracket as tough and as true as possible.  But if I was a fan of 90% of the other schools around the nation, I'd prefer the current system we have where I my team wins their conference, I know we're going to the playoffs and take our shot at the big boys.  

[New Tradition]

Newcardfan:

So how do we KNOW that 10-0 Monmouth isn't better than a OAC/CCIW team with 2 losses this year?  Just because the OAC/CCIW have been traditionally stronger?    

What about last year's 9-1 Franklin team from the historically crappy HCAC?    From reputation alone, a 1-loss Franklin wouldn't have been tabbed for the playoffs if the NCAA was trying to take just the top 32 teams.  

Very few people gave Franklin a reasonable chance of beating the Otterbein (the OAC's 2nd place team) on the road.  And no one, myself included, gave Franklin ANY chance of beating 10-0 North Central and making the regional final.  However they did just that.  The automatic qualifier for the lesser conferences allows teams like Franklin to prove their worth on the field.  

One point that I think is over looked when trying to figure out the D3 field is the lack of cross regional games and the vast number of teams (230+) when compared to what we think about D1 football.  If D1 would institute a completely at-large playoff selection, it would be pretty easy to determine the top 8 or 16 teams worthy of a bid because there is a ton of cross-league/region games played.   Each of the conferences have played enough games against the others to get an accurate read on what the best 1 or 2 loss teams are that specific year.  

However in D3, that it's not possible.  How do you evaluate a team in New Jersey against a team in Illinois versus one in California that year?  As fans we easily factor in historical strength of a conference/team but is that accurate enough each year to determine which teams get a chance at playing for a title?  History says the 2nd OAC team is going to win a couple playoff games and is likely to keep winning until they run into Mount Union again.  However that history was wrong last year.   History also says an undefeated CCIW champion would drill into the ground a 1-loss team from the HCAC.  However that didn't happen either.

As a Mount Union fan, I would like to see the best 32 teams selected to make the bracket as tough and as true as possible.  But if I was a fan of 90% of the other schools around the nation, I'd prefer the current system we have where I my team wins their conference, I know we're going to the playoffs and take our shot at the big boys.  

Well put! (To quote Blazing Saddles)

[NCF]

My point is a tournament with 32 teams isn't enough with over 230 DIII schools. Time to expand the field just a little bit. However, that change probably won't happen any time soon and in just four years I won't care anymore.

[ncc_fan]

My point is a tournament with 32 teams isn't enough with over 230 DIII schools. Time to expand the field just a little bit. However, that change probably won't happen any time soon and in just four years I won't care anymore.

We already have a tournament with 230+ schools.  It starts in September and ends at the Stagg Bowl.  Just because the first 10 weeks are played in a round-robin format rather than single-elimination doesn't mean that they're not part of the tournament. 

[ncc58]

Does anyone remember how they selected teams way back when only 8 or 16 teams went...I don't think there were any AQs.  Am I remembering right?

When I played, it was an 8 team playoff system. You really had to be undefeated to have a chance to be selected. The CCIW, as it is now, was very competitive so the chance of going undefeated was small.

[wheels81]

RE: Wheaton players in the NFL--Kansas City's team website reports that OLB Mike Vrabel is hurt and Andrew Studebaker will replace him vs. Oakland this Sunday.  4 PM EST on CBS.

Where's the mention of Studebaker in NFL stories on your cover story.  I understand you all did write about him in earlier articles but at least give a shout out in this seemingly all inclusive article.   He may be starting as Vrabel was being limited in practice this week.

[formerd3db]

Does anyone remember how they selected teams way back when only 8 or 16 teams went...I don't think there were any AQs.  Am I remembering right?

When I played, it was an 8 team playoff system. You really had to be undefeated to have a chance to be selected. The CCIW, as it is now, was very competitive so the chance of going undefeated was small.

Other boards have had some of this discussion of recent.  You are correct that back then a team pretty much had to be undefeated to be considered.  Actually, with the 8 playoff system, you had to basically be in the top 10 nationally ranked teams.  However, the big "glitch" was that the NCAA committee had a rule prohibiting more than one team from the same region (i.e. N, S, E, W) being selected.  Unfortunately, some very good undefeated teams were left out of the playoffs because of that (such as Wabash, Hope, Adrian just to name a few).  Although some would (and still do) argue that the AQ system allows some teams from weaker conferences to get in, at least almost every DIII team gets a shot at making it (with the exception of the independents) and, moreover, the best teams obiously make it through to the end.

However, to this day, I would dare say it still "stings" for those teams that were slighted by the old system. , although it certainly doesn't take away from their great accomplishments in attaining that undefeated season.

[Gregory Sager]

My point is a tournament with 32 teams isn't enough with over 230 DIII schools. Time to expand the field just a little bit.

That's not how it works. You can't just add slots to a tournament because you think that good teams are being left out. Football programs don't exist in a vacuum; they coexist with other sports within a school's athletic department. And those other sports have the right to their fair share of the NCAA pie with regard to championship sponsorship.

D3 operates by a 1:6.5 ratio in all sports regarding championship competition. In other words, your sport is allotted one slot in its national championship tournament for every 6.5 schools that field a team in that sport. This is to ensure that all sports are treated fairly, just as the pools process ensures that all conferences (and independents) are treated fairly with regard to championship tournament access.

[ncc58]

Nice first post by ncc_fan. You're absolutely right, teams have to win beginning in week 1. You might take one loss, and still get into the playoffs. Two losses almost always eliminates you. Newcardfan might be surprised to know that it wasn't very long ago that 28 teams were invited to the playoffs. There's more Pool A bids now, but imagine just two from Pool C!

Newcardfan, maybe you only care about a four year period. But many of us have supported and followed Div III football (and sports) for a long period of time. Personally, I like how the playoff system has evolved. Teams and players know that if they have a good season, they will earn the right to be part of the playoffs.

[NCF]

Nice first post by ncc_fan. You're absolutely right, teams have to win beginning in week 1. You might take one loss, and still get into the playoffs. Two losses almost always eliminates you. Newcardfan might be surprised to know that it wasn't very long ago that 28 teams were invited to the playoffs. There's more Pool A bids now, but imagine just two from Pool C!

Newcardfan, maybe you only care about a four year period. But many of us have supported and followed Div III football (and sports) for a long period of time. Personally, I like how the playoff system has evolved. Teams and players know that if they have a good season, they will earn the right to be part of the playoffs.

Since two losses will keep you out of the play-offs, then you have to schedule weak non-confernce opponents. Going 8-2 is a pretty good season. It shouldn't eliminate your team from the post season almost automatically. Football usually brings in the most money for a program so they should be treated differently.
As for caring for my four year period only-so what? I only go to games to watch my kids play. I never watched a DIII game before my entered college and I'll never watch one after he leaves.We still have one left in grade school to follow.

[Mr. Ypsi]

Nice first post by ncc_fan. You're absolutely right, teams have to win beginning in week 1. You might take one loss, and still get into the playoffs. Two losses almost always eliminates you. Newcardfan might be surprised to know that it wasn't very long ago that 28 teams were invited to the playoffs. There's more Pool A bids now, but imagine just two from Pool C!

Newcardfan, maybe you only care about a four year period. But many of us have supported and followed Div III football (and sports) for a long period of time. Personally, I like how the playoff system has evolved. Teams and players know that if they have a good season, they will earn the right to be part of the playoffs.

Since two losses will keep you out of the play-offs, then you have to schedule weak non-confernce opponents. Going 8-2 is a pretty good season. It shouldn't eliminate your team from the post season almost automatically. Football usually brings in the most money for a program so they should be treated differently.
As for caring for my four year period only-so what? I only go to games to watch my kids play. I never watched a DIII game before my entered college and I'll never watch one after he leaves.We still have one left in grade school to follow.

I guarantee that NO D3 school makes money on football (with the conceivable exception of tuition revenue from students who would otherwise have not enrolled).

And scheduling weak non-con opponents is likely to bite you in the butt in competing for the AQ.

[New Tradition]

As for caring for my four year period only-so what? I only go to games to watch my kids play. I never watched a DIII game before my entered college and I'll never watch one after he leaves.We still have one left in grade school to follow.

Hopefully NCC and the CCIW will change your mind.  Before I started my career at NCC, the only D3 football I had ever seen was when I was being recruited.  When I had finished playing, my family continued to watch my brother, who also played for the Cardinals, for 3 years.  I am currently in AZ and unable to attend ANY games (AHHHHHH SO FRUSTRATED) but my parents and brother still attend games regularly.  They will be in attendance tomorrow, and even made the trip out to Augustana.  

My parents loved going on road trips and following the team.  They built relationships with other parents who had (sometimes younger) kids playing for the team and continue to attend to watch their friends' kids after both my brother's and my careers had ended.  I know Tailgater no longer has any kids at Carthage, but he still follows his son's alma mater.  I'd be willing to bet that he attends and cares for many of the same reasons that my parents still do.

IMHO, D3 has an effect on people who watch it for any period of time that makes them continue to care for years after their children are done playing.  I think that part of it is the fond memories that you build watching your kid sweat, bleed and strive to help his team do something special.  Another part of it is that D3 is the most pure form of football (no chance of getting recruited to play at a big school, no scholarships, extremely little chance of going pro), so people enjoy watching the kids play hard for no other reason than pure and simple love of the game.  The final reason I have is that it is just plain entertaining.  Easily the most fun thing to do on a Saturday afternoon/evening in the fall.  

[Gregory Sager]

Football usually brings in the most money for a program so they should be treated differently.

As Pat said earlier, the NCAA does not agree with you. And I would imagine that the parents of North Central's volleyball players, soccer players, cross-country runners, baseball players, etc., would not agree with you, either. Also, Chuck is right on the money concerning the revenue neutrality of specific D3 sports and the penalties a team is likely to incur on selection day if it pads its non-conference slate with patsies.

As for caring for my four year period only-so what? I only go to games to watch my kids play. I never watched a DIII game before my entered college and I'll never watch one after he leaves.We still have one left in grade school to follow.

Just as an FYI, admitting this in a d3boards.com room is a sure way to draw antagonism. The long-term followers of D3 athletics that frequent this website tend to be diehard alumni, sports purists, and ex-athletes who have a heavy emotional stake in the fortunes of their schools and an almost missionary zeal for D3 athletics and what it represents. Saying that your interest in North Central football, or in D3 football in general, goes only as far as the eligibility limits of your son's participation is entirely your right -- and, truth be told, there's a certain number of moms and dads (mostly dads) who post on d3boards.com for a few years while their kid is a student-athlete and then vanish when the kid leaves school. But being straightforward about the limits of your interest, in spite of your laudable honesty, is likely to rub people the wrong way in here.

I'm not pointing a finger at you or telling you that you've done something wrong, mind you. It's a free country. I'm just telling you that what you've said may push the buttons of some of the regulars.

[Gregory Sager]

... and no sooner did I hit the "post" button than I see that New Tradition has already proved my point.

[usee]

Its also clear he doesn't actually care about a solution to better the D3 playoff format and his only interest is the prolinging of his son's team's season.

The reality is if you are 9-1 from the CCIW you go to the playoffs.