FB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[footballfan413]

Congrats to the Titans, their coaching staff and fans on a great season.  You hung with the Hawks the first half as well as anyone has this season.  Just hard for anyone to stay with them for 4 quarters, at least so far this year.    As far as roster limits, the WIAC is one of the few conferences in D-3 that limits its rosters to 100.  The staff usually sees about 140-160 players show first day and have to cut to that number.  We have been able to compete with that restriction and so can other programs.  Regarding the success that the UWW program has had the last 5 years, a brief history lesson.  We have not been a dominate force until 2005 when a very special group of players were recruited and developed.  A tough team in our conference, yes, but with the exception of UW-Lacrosse in the early 90's, the WIAC was considered a tough conference that beat each other up all season so the representatiive was usually one and done in the post season.  Until 05, a Whitewater team had not been to a title game since they played for the NAIA championship in the late 60's.  In 02, Coach Brez set up a home/home NC game with MUC saying that if we wanted to get to the next level, then we needed to see an elite D3 team up close and personal to measure ourselves against and see what it would take.  We lost 44-21 in 02 and 40-17 in 03.  The rest is history.  The Warhawks burst on to the scene in 05 but it was several years in the making.  My point is that 5 short years ago, this program was nothing more than a good WIAC team. Love being lumped in with a program like MUC who has dominated the scene for something like 15 years but I think we still need to have a few more years of success to warrant that. What we do share with MUC is that with the recent success, we have a much easier time of recruiting.  In fact, in many cases, the talent and depth starts coming to you.  I remember back when the play-offs began for us in 05, posters for storied programs like St. Johns and Linfield would come on our board and tell us that, "history had shown that no WIAC team would be playing football in December."  The Warhawk success of the last 5 years is a result of hard work and determination by the coaching staff and players, a very supportive community and alumni base that has continued to support the improvement of facilities and the desire to do what it took to strive to reach the elite level.  It is much easier to maintain it once there than to get there in the first place.  A CCIW program has just as good a chance of making this leap as any one else.  We put together a stellar group of players in 05 and we have been able to maintain it because of the exposure that playing on ESPN has given us.  Don't know how long it will last but it was developed the old fashioned way with hard work and determination.  The Titans have a new recruiting tool after this years success and it will pay dividends and give your staff, players and program something to build on.  Like the Warhawks in 02/03, your team and staff have now seen an elite D-3 team up close and personal and now have a clearer idea of what they need to do and what it will take to continue that road to success.  That is the way the Warhawks did it.  Good luck to the Titans next season.  I expect they aren't going anywhere but up from here.    

Sorry for the long post, Gentlemen, but my point is, do not look at the defeat in the Perk yesterday as, "how can we ever compete with that?"  Look at it as, "now we have seen it and know what we have to do to get there!"     

[Son of Tailgater]

I just can't envision a CCIW team ever being to able to recruit the level of talent and depth that Whitewater and Mount Union have at every position.  Even a 100% healthy North Central this year, or a 100% healthy Wheaton from Studebaker's senior year...there just seems to be a huge gap there that the top of the CCIW will never be able to close.  

Perhaps, but who knows? CCIW teams have no roster limits, while the WIAC limits teams to 100 players.

This is the reason that WIAC has a lot of 5th year seniors. When I was being recruited out of high school UWW told me that they red shirt every incoming freshman, unless of course they have someone that can play right away.

This allows for one more year of being in the weight room and as they put it "Imagine being 22-23 and playing against 18 year olds."

[Son of Tailgater]

I posted about something similar to this on the NCAC board a while ago. I tend to agree that a lot of times its difficult to play with teams like MUC and UWW. I always think of the old Pitt Panther teams that had 200 guys on their roster when they won the national title.

In the case of D3, all of the guys that are on MUC and UWW rosters beyond the second team could still probably be- at worst - role players on some other d3 teams and probably more likely starters and studs. In many ways when teams pile up huge rosters it becomes a "As long as they don't play for them...its ok if they never play for us". Because football is such a team sport many guys would rather have a ring every year than start for more than one year.

IMHO, the fairest way to do things would be to have roster limits. MUC could field two full 70-80 man rosters. This would help alleviate small numbers in certain schools and help spread the wealth. In the cases of some of the SUNY and Wisconsin schools it also helps alleviate the difference in cost. I think if you see that happen you still see the MUC's and UWW's win but just not in the crazy ways it happens now.

In all fairness, I will say that to some extent this post is a bit of "sour grapes" on my part. I have the utmost respect for MUC and UWW and they have done nothing but win with grace and class in these last few years, and most certainly have earned their victories. Still, it would be nice for a someone else to have a moment in the sun. Because, after all, teams from outside of the OAC and WIAC play and work just as hard as MUC and UWW.

Creating two 70-80 rosters is basically just going to create a JV and a Varsity team. I wouldn't expect them to evenly split their talent and loading up one team would create the same result.

I do not agree that we need to alter roster sizes or put handicaps on Mount or UWW. If they are putting in the same hard work then they deserve to win.

IMHO, it is going to be a great feat for any team to take down either of these two teams in the playoffs or in the regular season. If you can remember 6-7 years ago when UWW beat Mount in the Stagg Bowl they team that jumped ahead of St. Johns. After that win they essentially came out of no where and have since them established themselves as a top caliber team. Mount and UWW make a great name for D3 football and are setting the bar high.

[footballfan413]

IMHO, it is going to be a great feat for any team to take down either of these two teams in the playoffs or in the regular season. If you can remember 6-7 years ago when UWW beat Mount in the Stagg Bowl they team that jumped ahead of St. Johns. After that win they essentially came out of no where and have since them established themselves as a top caliber team. Mount and UWW make a great name for D3 football and are setting the bar high.

The Warhawks beat Mount Union in the Stagg in 2007, only 2 seasons ago.  You make my point beautifully.  Only 5 short years ago, UWW was just another good WIAC team that couldn't navigate the post season and it had been that way for decades but for some reason, people think they have had success for much longer.

I just can't envision a CCIW team ever being to able to recruit the level of talent and depth that Whitewater and Mount Union have at every position.  Even a 100% healthy North Central this year, or a 100% healthy Wheaton from Studebaker's senior year...there just seems to be a huge gap there that the top of the CCIW will never be able to close.  

Perhaps, but who knows? CCIW teams have no roster limits, while the WIAC limits teams to 100 players.

This is the reason that WIAC has a lot of 5th year seniors. When I was being recruited out of high school UWW told me that they red shirt every incoming freshman, unless of course they have someone that can play right away.

This allows for one more year of being in the weight room and as they put it "Imagine being 22-23 and playing against 18 year olds."

NCAA banned red-shirting at the D-3 level years ago.  The 2003 class was the last class allowed to do it.  There is grey-shirting but in my opinion, that doesn't produce nearly the same advantage as red-shirting did.  

[Carthage Fan]

I just can't envision a CCIW team ever being to able to recruit the level of talent and depth that Whitewater and Mount Union have at every position.    

This may be way off, but......Carthage has only 19 of 149 players from WI.  I believe in-State full cost of attending (tuition and R&B) UWW is about $12k vs Carthage as an example which was $36k last year.    Where would you go if you had to pay for your school?  And, even though there is some endowment $, I don't think there is any way you get that $36k or like tuitions in the CCIW down to near and below $12k.  So you have really good WI players passing on Carthage to go to UWW as well as other WIAC schools, not only for the programs, but for the fact it's less than half the cost.  I don't know what MUU is in comparison. Guess you need to convince players they have a good chance to play in a CCIW program vs. sit in another, but then you have the $$ issue.....

[badgerwarhawk]

Congrats to IWU on a successfull season and best of luck in the future.  Perhaps we meet again on another day. 

TitanQ, take care of things at the head Farm.  Those of us out here in the field are counting on you.

[Titan Q]

Congrats to IWU on a successfull season and best of luck in the future.  Perhaps we meet again on another day. 

TitanQ, take care of things at the head Farm.  Those of us out here in the field are counting on you.

Will do, badger.  You guys are the straw that stirs the drink...keep it rolling out there.

[Kira & Jaxon's Dad]

NCAA banned red-shirting at the D-3 level years ago.  The 2003 class was the last class allowed to do it.  There is grey-shirting but in my opinion, that doesn't produce nearly the same advantage as red-shirting did.  

Wasn't there a story earlier this year about a player (maybe from UWW) that was "Cut" his Freshman year from the team, but then was able to participate in Spring football for the team and then have 4 years of eligibility?  Is this what you mean by "grayshirting?"

I think this is different from the true meaning of "grayshirting" where a student athlete delays his entrance to college until January, not attending school at all the fall semester of his freshman year.

[SaintsFAN]

Congrats to IWU on a great season.. The top 3 teams in this conference would be top 3 in most of the conferences in Division 3 and I have a great respect for what the CCIW has accomplished the past few seasons in the tournament.

[footballfan413]

NCAA banned red-shirting at the D-3 level years ago.  The 2003 class was the last class allowed to do it.  There is grey-shirting but in my opinion, that doesn't produce nearly the same advantage as red-shirting did.  

Wasn't there a story earlier this year about a player (maybe from UWW) that was "Cut" his Freshman year from the team, but then was able to participate in Spring football for the team and then have 4 years of eligibility?  Is this what you mean by "grayshirting?"

I think this is different from the true meaning of "grayshirting" where a student athlete delays his entrance to college until January, not attending school at all the fall semester of his freshman year.

Honestly, I don't really know how or if the Hawks do a lot or any grey-shirting.  I only mentioned it when I posted about red-shirting no longer being allowed because I didn't want to get a, "yabut," tossed at me.  You know.......... Ya, but...... they can grey shirt.    

[BoBo]

NCAA banned red-shirting at the D-3 level years ago.  The 2003 class was the last class allowed to do it.  There is grey-shirting but in my opinion, that doesn't produce nearly the same advantage as red-shirting did.  

Wasn't there a story earlier this year about a player (maybe from UWW) that was "Cut" his Freshman year from the team, but then was able to participate in Spring football for the team and then have 4 years of eligibility?  Is this what you mean by "grayshirting?"

I think this is different from the true meaning of "grayshirting" where a student athlete delays his entrance to college until January, not attending school at all the fall semester of his freshman year.

Honestly, I don't really know how or if the Hawks do a lot or any grey-shirting.  I only mentioned it when I posted about red-shirting no longer being allowed because I didn't want to get a, "yabut," tossed at me.  You know.......... Ya, but...... they can grey shirt.    

k-dad, that was this seasons starting QB for UW-Platteville you are referring to.  He was cut from the team entering last season, was not a member of the team for a year, came back this year in pre-season camp and won he starting QB job beforegetting injuried sometime in mid-season and out for the rest of the year.

EDIT:
Here is the link from the Dubuque newspaper

[Mr. Ypsi]

My understanding of greyshirting is closer to the situation kirasdad decried, than to his claim of what it is supposed to be.  I believe it refers to a player who can practice with the team pre-season (and in the spring), but (unlike a redshirt) cannot practice with the team during the season.

I am NOT trying to resurrect the tired debate of publics vs. privates (IMO, each has some areas of advantage and disadvantage), but this particular situation would seem to benefit more the lower-tuition publics.  While loans can continue forever (especially repaying them! ), I believe most actual scholarship money is limited to 4 years; for a private student to greyshirt would likely take very wealthy and/or very indulgent parents!

[footballfan413]

My understanding of greyshirting is closer to the situation kirasdad decried, than to his claim of what it is supposed to be.  I believe it refers to a player who can practice with the team pre-season (and in the spring), but (unlike a redshirt) cannot practice with the team during the season.

I am NOT trying to resurrect the tired debate of publics vs. privates (IMO, each has some areas of advantage and disadvantage), but this particular situation would seem to benefit more the lower-tuition publics.  While loans can continue forever (especially repaying them! ), I believe most actual scholarship money is limited to 4 years; for a private student to greyshirt would likely take very wealthy and/or very indulgent parents!

Really?  You mean academic $$$  (wink, wink,) is limited to only 4 years?  I did not know that!    Seriously, you are right, advantages/disadvantages go both ways, and this is NOT a road we should go down.............lol    

[ncc58]

There was an energetic discussion on these boards in August about greyshirting. Let's just say it does occur. I have talked to one parent of a UWW player whose son was greyshirted this year. I don't think UWW greyshirts 40 players, but a number in the 10ish range wouldn't surprise me.

[footballfan413]

There was an energetic discussion on these boards in August about greyshirting. Let's just say it does occur. I have talked to one parent of a UWW player whose son was greyshirted this year. I don't think UWW greyshirts 40 players, but a number in the 10ish range wouldn't surprise me.

Sounds about right.  That wouldn't surprise me either, especially where there are cases of education majors, (UWW has a national recognized education school,) when a player knows he's in for a 4 1/2 to 5 year haul anyway.  A fair amount of players are P.E. majors every year.