FB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[ncc58]

It's not a big deal ... This will be the 3rd year in a row that NCC changed their defensive scheme. 3 different DCs, 3 different schemes.

Also, a new defensive scheme in Naperville? hmmmmm.

uhh, uhhh, why, no, not ,uhh sure what you are speaking of.....     hehe

[usee]

And 3 short playoff runs.....hmmm. See a pattern?

[usee]

Pat- thanks for some further color on your thinking about conference strength. When I have a little time I'd like to research some of my thots but I'm never one to support an argument with fact unless its convenient so here are some initial replies:

I think its tough to say a conference strength is based on 1 teams performance in the playoffs. I would think the fact that 6 of th 8 CCIW teams have been to the playoffs in the last 10 yrs is pretty indicative of conference strength (which is measured top to bottom). I believe in KO someone at d3 said carthage would challenge NCC while they were picked 6th. Last year our 6th place team (millikin) beat our 1st place team (iwu). Our 4th place team beat the MIAC 3rd place team at their place. I think St Thomas appearance last year is the first MIAC team outside of bethel or St Johns in a long time. I am also surprised the MIAC would move ahead of the CCIW based on a road win at monmouth? I realize all this is subjective but, despite the CCIW's weak non conf schedule this year I don't see the depth in any conference past WIAC and OAC that compares with the CCIW.

[02 Warhawk]

Pat- thanks for some further color on your thinking about conference strength. When I have a little time I'd like to research some of my thots but I'm never one to support an argument with fact unless its convenient so here are some initial replies:

I think its tough to say a conference strength is based on 1 teams performance in the playoffs. I would think the fact that 6 of th 8 CCIW teams have been to the playoffs in the last 10 yrs is pretty indicative of conference strength (which is measured top to bottom). I believe in KO someone at d3 said carthage would challenge NCC while they were picked 6th. Last year our 6th place team (millikin) beat our 1st place team (iwu). Our 4th place team beat the MIAC 3rd place team at their place. I think St Thomas appearance last year is the first MIAC team outside of bethel or St Johns in a long time. I am also surprised the MIAC would move ahead of the CCIW based on a road win at monmouth? I realize all this is subjective but, despite the CCIW's weak non conf schedule this year I don't see the depth in any conference past WIAC and OAC that compares with the CCIW.

The CCIW's non-conference schedule seems weeker than the MIAC in 2009 as well. Seems like MIAC doesn't shy away from scheduling teams from the WIAC, or Willamette, or Wartburg, etc...all of these are quaility opponents. Maybe that had something to do with it, and not just the Monmouth game....i'm just guessing here.

[NCF]

And 3 short playoff runs.....hmmm. See a pattern?

Hopefully usee differently at the end of the season.

[usee]

Pat- thanks for some further color on your thinking about conference strength. When I have a little time I'd like to research some of my thots but I'm never one to support an argument with fact unless its convenient so here are some initial replies:

I think its tough to say a conference strength is based on 1 teams performance in the playoffs. I would think the fact that 6 of th 8 CCIW teams have been to the playoffs in the last 10 yrs is pretty indicative of conference strength (which is measured top to bottom). I believe in KO someone at d3 said carthage would challenge NCC while they were picked 6th. Last year our 6th place team (millikin) beat our 1st place team (iwu). Our 4th place team beat the MIAC 3rd place team at their place. I think St Thomas appearance last year is the first MIAC team outside of bethel or St Johns in a long time. I am also surprised the MIAC would move ahead of the CCIW based on a road win at monmouth? I realize all this is subjective but, despite the CCIW's weak non conf schedule this year I don't see the depth in any conference past WIAC and OAC that compares with the CCIW.

The CCIW's non-conference schedule seems weeker than the MIAC in 2009 as well. Seems like MIAC doesn't shy away from scheduling teams from the WIAC, or Willamette, or Wartburg, etc...all of these are quaility opponents. Maybe that had something to do with it, and not just the Monmouth game....i'm just guessing here.

Your point is a good one. To be fair to Pat he didn't say the Monmouth win was the ONLY reason. He cited a competitive showing at Linfield vs a blowout at UWW for the CCIW. I guess I am most surprised at the notion that playoff performance is what moves a top conference up. I agree its a huge piece but I would also argue based on that the CCIW should be ahead of everyone but the WIAC and the OAC. ^ conference teams to the playoffs, no losses for Wheaton to anyone but MUU, Carthage took MTU to the 4th quarter in Alliance back in 04. And we do have 4 stagg bowl trophies from back in Ypsi's era

Seriously, I think the conference rankings is a fairly subjective process without games to evaluate. To that extent I agree the non conf scheduleing is important and the playoff performance is a strong measuring stick. The interpretation of those results is up for debate.

[CardinalAlum]

And 3 short playoff runs.....hmmm. See a pattern?

Very true!!!  Nice one, Usee!!  K+

[Mr. Ypsi]

Actually, Augie's run of four-straight national titles began 13 years after I graduated!  You'll have to name the era after someone younger than I.

[Pat Coleman]

Carthage took MTU to the 4th quarter in Alliance back in 04.

A conference you're advocating to move ahead of BEAT Mount Union in Alliance in 2004 and another conference you're advocating to move ahead of beat the team that beat Mount Union. Just keeping you honest, here.

[usee]

Pat-

I hear you but Mary hardin baylor and hardn simmons are the only playoff teams year in and year out in that conference. I agree MHB has been a better team but half the CCIW teams have won playoff games since 2004. Isn't that by definition a stronger conference?

[lakeshore]

Pat-

I hear you but Mary hardin baylor and hardn simmons are the only playoff teams year in and year out in that conference. I agree MHB has been a better team but half the CCIW teams have won playoff games since 2004. Isn't that by definition a stronger conference?

I agree Usee.  When I think of conference strength i think of top to bottom strength not just a couple 800 pound gorillas at the top.  I would also agree that you can see why the CCIW team don't schedule killer non-conf schedules because of the battles that will incur week in and week out in conf.

[Mugsy]

Mugsy,

You running CCIW Pickems again?

(I've put up the first slate of games for MIAA Pickems, in case you have the guts to attempt redemption! )

Hadn't thought about it yet.  Let me think about this tonight to make sure I can commit to it.  I don't want to say yes and then do a poor job organizing and running the contest.

After thinking it through, I believe I'm going to take a sabbatical this year from running the Pick-Em's contest.  My fall is looking a bit squeezed.  I'm willing to fill in, if whoever ends up running the contest has a busy week.  Or I can help compile and document the weekly results in tabular form.

Probably would be good to have some new blood/new vision on the contest to keep it fresh.

So... who wants to take this on?

[Pat Coleman]

Pat-

I hear you but Mary hardin baylor and hardn simmons are the only playoff teams year in and year out in that conference. I agree MHB has been a better team but half the CCIW teams have won playoff games since 2004. Isn't that by definition a stronger conference?

Mississippi College made the playoffs and won a game last year. If you go one year past your arbitrary six-year span, East Texas Baptist won a playoff game. That's four out of nine teams. Also, keep in mind that this conference often has to play itself in the first round or unnaturally early in the playoffs.

Your vaunted bottom of the conference (and I'll throw out North Park to save us all time) beat Illinois College, Loras, Albion, Benedictine, Olivet and Chicago last year out of conference.

I just don't think top four is warranted. Really really really high, yes. Top four? No.

[02 Warhawk]

Pat-

I hear you but Mary hardin baylor and hardn simmons are the only playoff teams year in and year out in that conference. I agree MHB has been a better team but half the CCIW teams have won playoff games since 2004. Isn't that by definition a stronger conference?

I agree Usee.  When I think of conference strength i think of top to bottom strength not just a couple 800 pound gorillas at the top. I would also agree that you can see why the CCIW team don't schedule killer non-conf schedules because of the battles that will incur week in and week out in conf.

That hasn't stopped other conferences (OAC, MIAC, WIAC) from scheduling tougher non-conference opponents.

[usee]

Pat- good pts. That's why the ranking is largely subjective. The CCIW has had 6 of their 8 teams win playoff games since 2000 but they have a penchant for weak non conf scheduling and run into alliance/Whiteater in the playoffs. Its good to see you are considering all the angles. A good debate.