FB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[Pat Coleman]

I say bring em on!!  If you can't beat them in September, you can't beat them in the playoffs!  It shouldn't be about just getting into the playoffs.  The CCIW needs to get away from the creampuff non conference schedule.  I, for one, would love to see NCC play a Mount Union or a UWW in the non conference part of the schedule.  Maybe you do take an ass kicking, but at least you know where you stand and what you need to do to play with the best!    One man's opinion....   Go Cards!!

CardinalAlum:
You do have a point there...some people do need (or deserve ) a good "ass kicking" at times!   All joking aside, there are two theories to this issue: some believe as you do that by "scheduling up" for the non-conference portion of one's schedule, that in the long run will improve the program to the point where they can competitively compete in the playoffs.  The other theory is as USee has related and he has a legit point also.  Perhaps scheduling one non-conf game against an upper tier team is the best way to intially approach "the challenge" for some programs, then go on from there over a few years.  Just an additional thought for the discussion.

How about we just not schedule the Olivets and the Cornells in the first place, if you style yourself a playoff contender, and at least pick mid-range teams from these conferences?

I am sure someone's going to tell me that these games are scheduled far in advance, and Olivet was a playoff team when they were scheduled, but let's be honest here -- Olivet won the MIAA, yes, but they were 6-5 that year, and 6-4 the year before. That's not "scheduling a playoff team" in the true sense of the term.

[Stagg Again!!]

Cardalum and Newcardfan. Your testosterone levels aside, the reality is if you don't beat them in september you don't get to play them in December. NCC is clearly in the minority in the scheduling and despite your bravado, if they lose to UWEC and end up missing the playoffs for the second year in a row because of it, don't be surprised to see Thorne and co. Conform. Playing extra games with extra practices is invaluable to a program. Win in November and you will get youyr shot at Mt Union and UWW.

I think you hit the nail on the head USee.  While it is clearly fun for everyone to see great matchups between the nation's top teams, that is what the playoffs were designed for.  Last year, NCC lost a tough game against ONU on the road by one touchdown (and couple of missed extra points) when they had to overcome a demoralizing season-ending injury to Wenger that stymied the team for two full quarters.  Then, during their tough conference schedule, they lost one OT game to IWU when Fanthorpe was injured.  Their prize?  No playoffs.  There may be value for teams that play in weak conferences to play strong out of conference schedules in order to justify their place in the playoff rotation, but when you play in the WIAC, OAC, CCIW or one of the other top conferences, I see NO value to playing a tough out-of-conference schedule.  I think that the selection committee made it clear last year with ONU, NCC, etc. that they don't care either!!

[hyrooster]

For NCC to win they need Crackle to play at QB and control the O-Line. They are a whole different team with him at QB.
I believe NCC's D will handle what is thrown at them. Even though they've allowed the first points of the game in the first 2 they adjusted quickly. The part no one discussed is that Olivet scored a TD with 1.1 seconds left when the clock should've run out. They are very mature and capable.
Ncc wins by 2 TD's.

[hornet]

Looking back at uww schedule starting in 2002 I think speaks for itself.  If a program can be patient ,it may take a fewyears but look at them now.

[Stagg Again!!]

So, at the end of the year when they look back, the kids at UW-RF can say, "Yeah we were 3-7 or 4-6 and lost every one of our out of conference games, but we played a damned tough schedule (ONU, Trine, St. Thomas)!!"  And the kids at UW-O can look back and say, "Yeah, we finished 7-3 and missed the playoffs to three or four 8-2 or 9-1 teams from really weak conferences, but we played 'em all (Mt. Union, Central)!!"  Props to those kids for playing a damned tough schedule, but if they never get to make the playoffs and show their skills on the national stage (because they are winless in their preseason schedule and lose even only one game in a tough conference schedule), it is unfortunate.  Just one man's opinion. 

[usee]

The part no one discussed is that Olivet scored a TD with 1.1 seconds left when the clock should've run out.

Hyrooseter, Not sure what you mean here but I don't think beating Olivet 52-3 vs 52-9 matters to anyone outside of the players from NCC. It certainly doesn't change any opinions of who NCC is and what they are capable of doing.

Today I believe UWEC will see the best defense they have faced in NCC's Wenger and friends. The problem for NCC is the jump up from a St. John's defense (with 6 returning starters and an all american DT) to NCC's defense isn't nearly the jump NCC will have to adjust to in facing UWEC vs Cornell and Olivet.  I think NCC's defense is the strength of their team but they need to come out of the gate strong today as I expect the Cardinal offense to take some time to ajdust to the speed of the UWEC defense, which will certainly be much stronger than NCC has seen to date. If NCC gives up an early score or two they will not be able to "adjust quickly". The tailback for UWEC is as good as any the Cardinal will face this year. It will be a great battle in Naperville today.

[hyrooster]

I have just one question in this whole debate for Pat on whether you play tough/tougher teams or what's considered a weaker opponent in your non-conference games. In your opinion, had NCC played an opponent much weaker than ONU (and let put aside all the reasons we lost that game last year) and ended the season with 1 loss to conference champ IWU (and let's put aside all the reasons we lost that game too) would NCC had made the playoffs? Can you answer that?
I don't want you to think I'm some rookie to this either. Having been through 10 years of CCIW football with sons playing on teams always good enough to make the playoffs (Millikin from 1997-2002 & NCC 2007-2010) there was nothing more grueling then the wait to see if you get in because you didn't win your conference.
I'll wait for your reply before I comment further.

[footballfan413]

This is one of the best, "kicking a dead horse," topics.  My feelings?  I waffle back and forth and understand there is pro's and cons with both.  Playing in tough conferences that we both do, CCIW and WIAC, taking on tough NC opponents can backfire on a program resulting in early injuries and even one loss before the regular season means, if you are a play-off contender, one more slip takes you out.  We all know how hard it is to navigate through our perspective conferences undefeated.  But scheduling cupcakes does not prepare a team  physically or mentally, for the most part, to face what's ahead.  Taking on the best and having a respectful showing can help to change the teams aspirations to one of high expectations for a long and successful post season.  UW-W is a prime example of how to set the bar high for their program, upping the quality of opponent in 2002 and 03 by taking on Mount Union and SJU to , "measure themselves against the best."  For us, it did become a spring board to the top, although none of us who watched would have believed it would turn out like it has,  proving that our program was not that far away from the top.  There were few other changes at the time except for scheduling the Mount and Johnnies, (same coaching staff that had been there for a decade, same facilities with the exception of a new field house built in the early 2000's,) but really, the biggest change seemed to be attitude and the belief that the Stagg Bowl could be a possibility.  The old, "you got to believe it to achieve it,' theory.  Maybe it comes down to a program changing their outlook to long term and being willing to sacrifice the now for better post seasons in the future.  Clearly, The Warhawk's class of 02 and 03 had some seriously talented players to execute the plan but who knows, maybe they were drawn in by the program talking the talk as far as playing on the national stage and walking the walk in terms of scheduling. Another big change was in the offensive philosophy.  Once we had a team in 05 with a great balanced offense, they started winning big and we all know how winning breeds winning.  Up until then we had been a run first/run often offense and that philosophy will not win you games in the post season, IMO.  To play into December, a team MUST do both well.
  Anyway, I am rambling but today's game will be interesting in that, both teams who are upper tier in two great conferences and have chosen opposite philosophies this season.  NCC has played cupcakes and the BluGolds are battle tested having had the poise to beat a storied program in the last minutes of overtime.  It is one of the things I am taking into account with my pick em's but I have to choose one so................. guess I better start flipping a coin.    

[usee]

Hyrooster: Pat is more of an expert than me but I'll take a crack at this: I think there is very little question NCC would have made the playoffs last year as a 9-1 team. They were almost in the conversation at 8-2. Their numbers on OWP (opponents winning percentage) and OOWP (oponenents-oponents winning percentage) were far superior to W&J and they would have been at the table in the North Region fairly early in the process.

I should clarify, I am a big fan of what NCC is doing on the scheduling front. Personally, I want to see tougher oppononents for non-conference games but the CCIW coaches have made it clear they won't do that. I am really against these games vs Greenville, Olivet, and MacMurray. Most CCIW coaches want to avoid overnight costs while playing mid level opponents. That's the main reason you end up with these NAC and MIAA games.

[hyrooster]

The part no one discussed is that Olivet scored a TD with 1.1 seconds left when the clock should've run out.

Hyrooseter, Not sure what you mean here but I don't think beating Olivet 52-3 vs 52-9 matters to anyone outside of the players from NCC. It certainly doesn't change any opinions of who NCC is and what they are capable of doing.

Today I believe UWEC will see the best defense they have faced in NCC's Wenger and friends. The problem for NCC is the jump up from a St. John's defense (with 6 returning starters and an all american DT) to NCC's defense isn't nearly the jump NCC will have to adjust to in facing UWEC vs Cornell and Olivet.  I think NCC's defense is the strength of their team but they need to come out of the gate strong today as I expect the Cardinal offense to take some time to ajdust to the speed of the UWEC defense, which will certainly be much stronger than NCC has seen to date. If NCC gives up an early score or two they will not be able to "adjust quickly". The tailback for UWEC is as good as any the Cardinal will face this year. It will be a great battle in Naperville today.

I agree with it being a great battle in Naperville and you're right in being unclear. All I was trying to say was that I believe the NCC offense with Crackel at QB will win. The defense will hold their own and adjusts quickly to what they see in the first series. I also know that this D throws 2 potential All Americans (Wenger and Sulo) plus Schneiderbauer is back (hasn't played in the first 2 games) plus a healthy Kane Thompson and strong enough at LB that they were able to move Hayes to DT. Might be the strongest D in midwest and won't let game get away from them.
Yes this isn't OC or CC but I think with the home field advantage and finally playing a home game plus the QB change will be the additional boost needed to win.  

[footballfan413]

The part no one discussed is that Olivet scored a TD with 1.1 seconds left when the clock should've run out.

Hyrooseter, Not sure what you mean here but I don't think beating Olivet 52-3 vs 52-9 matters to anyone outside of the players from NCC. It certainly doesn't change any opinions of who NCC is and what they are capable of doing.

Today I believe UWEC will see the best defense they have faced in NCC's Wenger and friends. The problem for NCC is the jump up from a St. John's defense (with 6 returning starters and an all american DT) to NCC's defense isn't nearly the jump NCC will have to adjust to in facing UWEC vs Cornell and Olivet.  I think NCC's defense is the strength of their team but they need to come out of the gate strong today as I expect the Cardinal offense to take some time to ajdust to the speed of the UWEC defense, which will certainly be much stronger than NCC has seen to date. If NCC gives up an early score or two they will not be able to "adjust quickly". The tailback for UWEC is as good as any the Cardinal will face this year. It will be a great battle in Naperville today.

I agree with it being a great battle in Naperville and you're right in being unclear. All I was trying to say was that I believe the NCC offense with Crackel at QB will win. The defense will hold their own and adjusts quickly to what they see in the first series. I also know that this D throws 2 potential All Americans (Wenger and Sulo) plus Schneiderbauer is back (hasn't played in the first 2 games) plus a healthy Kane Thompson and strong enough at LB that they were able to move Hayes to DT. Might be the strongest D in midwest and won't let game get away from them.
Yes this isn't OC or CC but I think with the home field advantage and finally playing a home game plus the QB change will be the additional boost needed to win.  

Whoa.......you do know that Whitewater and Alliance are located in the midwest, right?  
     Sorry, couldn't resist. 

[usee]

I expect NCC to win. While they are certainly stepping up in opponent level, their defense has 12 starters back from last year so they are not going in with no clue about UWEC. They can tell from watching film this is an excellent UWEC team. The challenge will be to the NCC offense with Crackel at QB. If he manages the game and doesn't try to "win" it (i.e. forcing throws, etc) NCC will stay close throughout and I believe their home field advantage will prevail. I expect this to be a close game with UWEC scoring early and NCC coming from behind to win.

NCC 24 UWEC 21

[usee]

Football413-

Most of us in the CCIW view scheduling the same way we do the midwest. That is, it equals Il, Ia, WI, OH, IN minus UWW and Mt Union.

Seriously though, I think this NCC defense is as talented as almost anyone and has a chance to be top 5 in  the country. Willy Hayes was playing at a very high level last year in place of Wenger and he is now playing DT because of their depth? That's sick. We will see what happens on the field but I don't expect many teams to score more than 2-3 times on this defense.

[footballfan413]

Football413-

Most of us in the CCIW view scheduling the same way we do the midwest. That is, it equals Il, Ia, WI, OH, IN minus UWW and Mt Union.

Seriously though, I think this NCC defense is as talented as almost anyone and has a chance to be top 5 in  the country. Willy Hayes was playing at a very high level last year in place of Wenger and he is now playing DT because of their depth? That's sick. We will see what happens on the field but I don't expect many teams to score more than 2-3 times on this defense.

LOL.  Just get uneasy when anyone throws around a statement like, "best in the midwest."  I think you are probably right on in your prediction.  What bothers me is that game against the Johnnies, traditional always a very fast, quick, defense and high scoring program,, and yet, UWEC got the win. A win like that, in overtime, can do wonders for a team's confidence and chemistry.  Question.  How do you think this seasons version of NCC stacks up to the 07 version that we played in the Perk post season?  

[usee]

The team you guys played at the Perk was an offensive minded team. This year's NCC team will be very defensive minded but explosive on offense. This defense is significantly better and this offense is probably not as good. The Cardinal offense hinges on the play of its QB. They line up in spread sets and are talented as a running team but the threat of the pass from the spread is often what enables teams in this set to run (do they keep 6-7 in the box vs a spread set, etc.). This NCC team will be a more confident group than the one you saw in 07 and probably a deeper team (which will show in special teams coverage, etc). Starting talent is about equal all things considered. I would not be surprised to see NCC run the regular season table and make a deep playoff run this year. Likewise I would not be surprised to see them drop this game and 1 conference tilt and miss the dance at 8-2. The difference between these two outcomes really rests on the development of their QB in my opinion.