FB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[Titan Q]

Do you think NCC is a better team than UWW?

No.

[Gregory Sager]

Yah.....NCC deserves a #1 over UWW.....what a JOKE!  That is a travesty.........

Based on this season (which is all that is factored in), and the criteria used, why is that a "travesty"?

You are seriously delusional if you think that NCC should be a #1 seed over UWW.  DELUSIONAL.......SOS?  Seriously?  No one will PLAY UWW........SOS is a total joke.  

Wesley the overall #1 seed.......seriously??  That is an even bigger joke.  

Quit burying your head in numbers, and have some practical football sense.  

Your post is completely illogical. Look, Bob's already spelled out the situation. Is UWW probably the best, or one of the two best, football teams in D3? Yes. Does UWW merit a #1 seed by the criteria spelled out in the NCAA D3 football handbook? No. Does the fact that other local D3 coaches won't sign a contract with UWW to play non-conference football games against the Warhawks matter even one tiny bit? No.

This isn't about "burying your head in numbers." Bob didn't set up the bracket; the NCAA D3 championships committee did that, and it did so by previously-established criteria to which everyone has access. Seriously, the handbook is online on the NCAA website. You can even download it as a PDF file. There are rules here, and those rules have been followed.

As Bob said, you should've seen this coming for weeks, since St. Thomas has been ranked ahead of UWW in the West Region rankings for several weeks now.

You're expecting the NCAA to set things up according to "practical football sense," which I guess is supposed to mean perceived strength, or history, or whatever. It doesn't work that way. The NCAA has its own way of doing things, which frequently has nothing to do with the perceived strength of the teams in question. And that's not just true in football, it's true in lots of sports. Getting mad at the NCAA for doing things in its own peculiar way solves nothing. All you can ask of the NCAA is that it plays by the rules that have been set up for it, and in this case it has.

Go ahead and be angry, but don't shoot the messenger. All Bob has done is explain the way that it works. He's not the guy who's making you go to Naperville. Taking it out on him is just plain childish.

[ncc58]

I'll play along...apart from what happen last year (i agee with you about that). Do you think NCC is a better team than UWW?

There's probably no one that thinks NCC is better than UWW. Wesley, St. Thomas, Mount Union, and MHB may not be better than UWW.


However, according to the NCCA's criteria, they all grade out higher than UWW after 11 weeks of football. The message is that SOS is important. Don't be complaining that no one will play you. Other teams make the same argument (UMU, Trine, NCC, etc.). Get creative to schedule better non-conference competition.

On the WIAC board, the UWW supporters belittle all the other WIAC teams. You need those teams to be better, to actually have a couple games where UWW sweats a little. In the last D3 Poll, only UWSP received votes (besides UWW) and it was just 1 vote. So, the rest of the country doesn't respect the rest of the WIAC. UWW could win the D3 Chamionship again, but the WIAC is not the best conference. The CCIW has had 2 teams in the top 20 all season, and other teams have received votes week to week. Look at the scores of Wheaton's games and you'll see a better balance in the CCIW.

[Titan Q]

I was going to post the stuff below - but I think Greg worded what I was trying to say better than I did!

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You are seriously delusional if you think that NCC should be a #1 seed over UWW.  DELUSIONAL.......SOS?  Seriously?  No one will PLAY UWW........SOS is a total joke.  

Wesley the overall #1 seed.......seriously??  That is an even bigger joke.  

Quit burying your head in numbers, and have some practical football sense.  

Take a deep breath, skunks.  I am simply trying to provide perspective on why the seedings shook up the way they did, based on the Division III selection criteria and process.  There are people on these boards referencing things that are clearly not part of the process, like:

* No one will play UWW (I know that is true, but it's not in the criteria), and

* UWW is the defending national champ (again, not in the criteria)


I have practical football sense...I promise.  I think most people who know me on these boards will tell you I'm not the type to "bury my head in the numbers."  But the numbers (SOS, etc, etc) are the biggest factor in the NCAA Division III selection and bracketing system.

I do not believe NCC is better than UWW.  But based on the system used, this is not a huge surprise.

[Warhawk 96]

I'll play along...apart from what happen last year (i agee with you about that). Do you think NCC is a better team than UWW?

There's probably no one that thinks NCC is better than UWW. Wesley, St. Thomas, Mount Union, and MHB may not be better than UWW.


However, according to the NCCA's criteria, they all grade out higher than UWW after 11 weeks of football. The message is that SOS is important. Don't be complaining that no one will play you. Other teams make the same argument (UMU, Trine, NCC, etc.). Get creative to schedule better non-conference competition.

On the WIAC board, the UWW supporters belittle all the other WIAC teams. You need those teams to be better, to actually have a couple games where UWW sweats a little. In the last D3 Poll, only UWSP received votes (besides UWW) and it was just 1 vote. So, the rest of the country doesn't respect the rest of the WIAC. UWW could win the D3 Chamionship again, but the WIAC is not the best conference. The CCIW has had 2 teams in the top 20 all season, and other teams have received votes week to week. Look at the scores of Wheaton's games and you'll see a better balance in the CCIW.

1. If NCC has trouble scheduling teams why haven't they agreed to play us? We're 2 hours away and LOOKING.
2. Skunks is a Mount Union Guy, he's not traveling to Naperville. He just realizes how ridiculous this is.
3. We'll see how pointless rankings are in three weeks.
4. Just because we beat the schools in our league don't think that they can't beat your champions. They are good, we're just better and that's why we're the champions.

[02 Warhawk]

Do you think NCC is a better team than UWW?

No.

exactly...DIII is turning into the BCS. too much reliance on computer rankings and not enough objectivity.

Anyways...i'm looking forward to the match-up (if it occurs). i'm originally from Lombard, so I'll have a place to stay after the game in naperville at least.

[thunder38]

i can understand the confusion from the UWW faithful but their response has become downright comical at this point...no one is disputing the argument that Whitewater is a better football team if for no other reason than they haven't lost for the past 25 games.  this is a "what have you done for me lately" decision based only the facts that go down on paper which is indeed the only facet where North Central has a clear advantage.  it's very likely the committee took the facts and covered the team name and made the decision based solely on the facts.  the other humerous fact is that Whitewater may have an argument with St. Thomas and Wesley for the #1 spot but on paper North Central holds a pretty clear edge in the argument for the #1, yet instead the argument has been taken up with the Cards.  i don't think anyone is going to call it an upset if the Warhawks top the Cardinals in the quarters and noone is saying that the Cards are a better team than the Warhawks because we will  just have to wait a couple of weeks for that one to be straightened out.

Unfortunately for both squads this might be the most top heavy bracket in the field as whoever comes out of the Wittenburg/Ohio Northern game could challenge the Cards and that's a very good Trine squad at the #3 seed.

On the other side, Wheaton's bracket might the toughest top to bottom in the field. Drawing Coe as a 7 seed is no pushover given the fact that the Kohawks worked their way up to #6 in the country prior to their loss so not knowing anything else about them, I can tell they're not going to be a pushover.  The Wittenburg/Bethel game will be a very fan friendly game as those are two good teams as well.  St. Thomas is going to have their way with Benedictine in the 1/8 game and the 4/5 game is one without much implications since those two were seeded together mainly just for the sake of travel.

Both of these bottom brackets could provide a lot of excitement and intrigue while the top two brackets are going to be pretty easy to figure out with Mount Union having a pretty easy time all the way to the semis and the other bracket looks to come down to the winner of the Wesley/Mary Hardin-Baylor game.

It's very possible to have a rematch of the 08 semis with Wheaton invading the death star again in Alliance and Mary Hardin-Baylor taking on the Warhawks.

[02 Warhawk]

I'll play along...apart from what happen last year (i agee with you about that). Do you think NCC is a better team than UWW?

There's probably no one that thinks NCC is better than UWW. Wesley, St. Thomas, Mount Union, and MHB may not be better than UWW.


However, according to the NCCA's criteria, they all grade out higher than UWW after 11 weeks of football. The message is that SOS is important. Don't be complaining that no one will play you. Other teams make the same argument (UMU, Trine, NCC, etc.). Get creative to schedule better non-conference competition.

On the WIAC board, the UWW supporters belittle all the other WIAC teams. You need those teams to be better, to actually have a couple games where UWW sweats a little. In the last D3 Poll, only UWSP received votes (besides UWW) and it was just 1 vote. So, the rest of the country doesn't respect the rest of the WIAC. UWW could win the D3 Chamionship again, but the WIAC is not the best conference. The CCIW has had 2 teams in the top 20 all season, and other teams have received votes week to week. Look at the scores of Wheaton's games and you'll see a better balance in the CCIW.

There in-lies the problem....DIII's version of the BCS, a joke!

[Titan Q]

By the way, I've been to both Whitewater, WI and Naperville, IL in following IWU.  Naperville is wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy better than Whitewater.  A complete mismatch.

"Going to Naperville" is not such a bad thing, I promise.  SOS just got UWW fans a trip to The Lantern.

[Mr. Flynn]

As long as DIII teams get to determine who their champion is I'd leave the BCS comparisons to a minimum.  

[FormerCard]

I'll play along...apart from what happen last year (i agee with you about that). Do you think NCC is a better team than UWW?

There's probably no one that thinks NCC is better than UWW. Wesley, St. Thomas, Mount Union, and MHB may not be better than UWW.


However, according to the NCCA's criteria, they all grade out higher than UWW after 11 weeks of football. The message is that SOS is important. Don't be complaining that no one will play you. Other teams make the same argument (UMU, Trine, NCC, etc.). Get creative to schedule better non-conference competition.

On the WIAC board, the UWW supporters belittle all the other WIAC teams. You need those teams to be better, to actually have a couple games where UWW sweats a little. In the last D3 Poll, only UWSP received votes (besides UWW) and it was just 1 vote. So, the rest of the country doesn't respect the rest of the WIAC. UWW could win the D3 Chamionship again, but the WIAC is not the best conference. The CCIW has had 2 teams in the top 20 all season, and other teams have received votes week to week. Look at the scores of Wheaton's games and you'll see a better balance in the CCIW.

1. If NCC has trouble scheduling teams why haven't they agreed to play us? We're 2 hours away and LOOKING.
2. Skunks is a Mount Union Guy, he's not traveling to Naperville. He just realizes how ridiculous this is.
3. We'll see how pointless rankings are in three weeks.
4. Just because we beat the schools in our league don't think that they can't beat your champions. They are good, we're just better and that's why we're the champions.

Congratulations on being the champs.  I am happy that you are able to put together a good football team choosing from 8800  undergraduate students.   With our 2200 we have done some pretty good work too this year.    The Cardinal and Warhawk players worked very hard this year to be in this position.  It would have been nice if they both would have got a #1 seed, but hey, they didnt.      

[Titan Q]

I am happy that you are able to put together a good football team choosing from 8800  undergraduate students.   With our 2200 we have done some pretty good work too this year.    

Now let's be fair.  It's not like North Central and Whitewater construct their football rosters via tryouts in August.  Every decent player on both teams was recruited.  There is no "choosing" from the general student population!

[Mr. Ypsi]

I'll play along...apart from what happen last year (i agee with you about that). Do you think NCC is a better team than UWW?

There's probably no one that thinks NCC is better than UWW. Wesley, St. Thomas, Mount Union, and MHB may not be better than UWW.


However, according to the NCCA's criteria, they all grade out higher than UWW after 11 weeks of football. The message is that SOS is important. Don't be complaining that no one will play you. Other teams make the same argument (UMU, Trine, NCC, etc.). Get creative to schedule better non-conference competition.

On the WIAC board, the UWW supporters belittle all the other WIAC teams. You need those teams to be better, to actually have a couple games where UWW sweats a little. In the last D3 Poll, only UWSP received votes (besides UWW) and it was just 1 vote. So, the rest of the country doesn't respect the rest of the WIAC. UWW could win the D3 Chamionship again, but the WIAC is not the best conference. The CCIW has had 2 teams in the top 20 all season, and other teams have received votes week to week. Look at the scores of Wheaton's games and you'll see a better balance in the CCIW.

There in-lies the problem....DIII's version of the BCS, a joke!

As Mr. Flynn noted, d3 has a playoff - it is not comparable to the BCS!

But YOU are trying to make it more BCSish.  Teams are currently selected and seeded by KNOWN criteria.  THAT is objective.  In your earlier post you incorrectly used the term 'objectivity'.  Like it or not, the criteria are objective.  You are upset because the subjective perception of nearly everyone (including me) is that UWW should be a #1 seed.

[Gregory Sager]

Do you think NCC is a better team than UWW?

No.

exactly...DIII is turning into the BCS. too much reliance on computer rankings and not enough objectivity.

Actually, the idea is that an established set of ranking criteria is objective, while someone sitting in on a conference call saying, "We have to make Team A the top seed in the region, because everyone who posts about D3 football on d3boards.com says that they're better," is subjective.

It doesn't always work out to everyone's satisfaction -- as everyone here is saying, nobody's gonna argue that NCC is better than UWW and thus deserves the #1 seed on the basis of perceived strength -- but it is objective.

And this isn't a matter of "D3 is turning into ...", either. The NCAA has been using pre-established criteria in selecting and seeding its D3 tournaments for many years now.

[footballfan413]

I'll play along...apart from what happen last year (i agee with you about that). Do you think NCC is a better team than UWW?

There's probably no one that thinks NCC is better than UWW. Wesley, St. Thomas, Mount Union, and MHB may not be better than UWW.


However, according to the NCCA's criteria, they all grade out higher than UWW after 11 weeks of football. The message is that SOS is important. Don't be complaining that no one will play you. Other teams make the same argument (UMU, Trine, NCC, etc.). Get creative to schedule better non-conference competition.

On the WIAC board, the UWW supporters belittle all the other WIAC teams. You need those teams to be better, to actually have a couple games where UWW sweats a little. In the last D3 Poll, only UWSP received votes (besides UWW) and it was just 1 vote. So, the rest of the country doesn't respect the rest of the WIAC. UWW could win the D3 Chamionship again, but the WIAC is not the best conference. The CCIW has had 2 teams in the top 20 all season, and other teams have received votes week to week. Look at the scores of Wheaton's games and you'll see a better balance in the CCIW.

Tell that to Pat and D-3football.com as they are the ones who labeled the WIAC #1 toughest conference in the country.  It is called parity:
    W-L    Pct.       W-L    Pct.    PF    PA
UW-Whitewater    7-0    1.000       10-0    1.000    428    87
UW-Stevens Point    5-2    0.714       7-3    0.700    331    196
UW-Stout    4-3    0.571       6-4    0.600    276    196
UW-Platteville    3-4    0.429       5-5    0.500    244    270
UW-Oshkosh    3-4    0.429       4-6    0.400    269    284
UW-La Crosse    3-4    0.429       3-7    0.300    218    254
UW-Eau Claire    2-5    0.286       4-6    0.400    202    309
UW-River Falls    1-6    0.143       1-9    0.100    169    402
Half of the conference is 4-3, 3-4 this season.  We don't, "belittle," the WIAC.  We know, better than anyone, how good this conference is top to bottom.  Beating up on each other is what hurts UWW on paper.  And we are unjustly penalized for the fact that our success has driven way D-3 opponents and we are forced to play NAIA which hurts our RR stats.  
The point is that, as Pat explained last week to TQ, regional ranking alone have not been the only criteria used to determine play-off bracket in the past because there are not enough games played to rely solely on it, subjectivity has been part of the equation, but for some reason, not this year.  I wonder why??  

And for the record, it is more about not having a bracket named after us in my mind than being #2 to NCC's #1,  I think they deserve if more than the Tommies do.  It is about being labeled no higher than #5 overall by the committee, IMHO!  
And don't start the big old public school vs small little ole private school argument.  We don't recruit our players out of the student body as a whole any more than you do and we have a 100 man roster limit.  That dead horse is immaterial to this discussion.