FB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[NCF]

I don't understand how whacking Penn St football does a bit of good for anything or anybody. Prosecute those that knew. Those from Penn St that had nothing to do with this horror are already being punished enough.

Don't mean to pick on emma who has posted a lot of good things on the boards, but IMO this is the attitude that allows immoral behavior to go on in D1 sports. One year it's Florida State. Then, it's LSU. Ohio State. Auburn. Penn State. Each scandal is different but all have the same tone. That the coaches, players, and staff are somehow above the law. That they generate so much money for their universities that they can't be touched. Whack 'em hard. Piss off the alumni. Loss of significant football revenue will cause College Presidents at other schools to take notice and possibly cleanup their schools.

Thanks for responding respectfully- I am obviously in the minority on this one. Hate the sin but love the sinner. IMO it doesn't require a death sentence or any other campus wide penalty to ensure Penn St learns the proper lesson from this.  Does anyone really believe that if the NCAA doesn't institute a major penalty that the Penn St Board of Regents won't make the necessary changes to prevent this from ever happening again? Do people envision members of the administration secretly hoping the NCAA won't impose sanctions because they want to commence the committing of horrific crimes?
Penn St will end up implementing greater organizational control and oversight than probably any university without the NCAA issuing a single penalty.

You are right about Penn State taking control-I don't think anyone will ever have the power that Paterno had. The NCAA, however, must do something in light of the new findings.

[Stagg Again!!]

A little off topic, but in light of the new report surrounding Penn State-comments, thoughts? What should the NCAA do?

IMHO the NCAA should whack them.  In my mind, I have never seen a more complete and total "lack of institutional control" as what went on at Penn State.  And, now it is clear that the football program was used as a vehicle to harm children, with the knowledge and consent of the coaching staff and the school administration.  So, I believe that it is much worse than Reggie Bush's parents receiving the free use of a house, or kids at Ohio State getting free tattoos.  SMU received the "death penalty" for much much less than the ignoring of the rape of children.

However, D1 is guided by the quest for dollars, and PSU is extremely profitable, so I don't suppose that the NCAA will show much interest, which is disgraceful and embrassing.

Kovo86 & ILGator -

I agree with your points.  I heard one ESPN commentator suggest that:  1) PSU should receive the Death Penalty for five years; 2) the current PSU football players should be allowed a one time opportunity to transfer to another school without losing eligibility; and 3) the NCAA should void victories for as long as the crimes were taking place on campus (I am guessing he was indicating that victories back to 1998 should be voided).  If this situation does not meet the definition of "loss of institutional control", I am not sure that I know what does.  If the NCAA does not come down hard on PSU, they will seem quite hypocritical coming down hard during another "shoe-gate", "tatoo-gate" or "sports agent-gate" scandal.  As a Chicago Sun Times reporter noted yesterday, "Silence for silence."  Silence on the PSU campus every Saturday for five years is a small price to pay for the silence within the PSU administrative offices over the past fourteen years.  Give yourselves some karma on me. 

[NCF]

A little off topic, but in light of the new report surrounding Penn State-comments, thoughts? What should the NCAA do?

IMHO the NCAA should whack them.  In my mind, I have never seen a more complete and total "lack of institutional control" as what went on at Penn State.  And, now it is clear that the football program was used as a vehicle to harm children, with the knowledge and consent of the coaching staff and the school administration.  So, I believe that it is much worse than Reggie Bush's parents receiving the free use of a house, or kids at Ohio State getting free tattoos.  SMU received the "death penalty" for much much less than the ignoring of the rape of children.

However, D1 is guided by the quest for dollars, and PSU is extremely profitable, so I don't suppose that the NCAA will show much interest, which is disgraceful and embrassing.

Kovo86 & ILGator -

I agree with your points.  I heard one ESPN commentator suggest that:  1) PSU should receive the Death Penalty for five years; 2) the current PSU football players should be allowed a one time opportunity to transfer to another school without losing eligibility; and 3) the NCAA should void victories for as long as the crimes were taking place on campus (I am guessing he was indicating that victories back to 1998 should be voided).  If this situation does not meet the definition of "loss of institutional control", I am not sure that I know what does.  If the NCAA does not come down hard on PSU, they will seem quite hypocritical coming down hard during another "shoe-gate", "tatoo-gate" or "sports agent-gate" scandal.  As a Chicago Sun Times reporter noted yesterday, "Silence for silence."  Silence on the PSU campus every Saturday for five years is a small price to pay for the silence within the PSU administrative offices over the past fourteen years.  Give yourselves some karma on me.

That sounds about right. Everyday, it seems, something new is coming out. I'm waiting to see how many people will have criminal charges filed against them. It is too bad Paterno is not around to answer to this mess. It is a shame he let power and greed get in the way of doing the right thing.

[hazzben]

A little off topic, but in light of the new report surrounding Penn State-comments, thoughts? What should the NCAA do?

IMHO the NCAA should whack them.  In my mind, I have never seen a more complete and total "lack of institutional control" as what went on at Penn State.  And, now it is clear that the football program was used as a vehicle to harm children, with the knowledge and consent of the coaching staff and the school administration.  So, I believe that it is much worse than Reggie Bush's parents receiving the free use of a house, or kids at Ohio State getting free tattoos.  SMU received the "death penalty" for much much less than the ignoring of the rape of children.

However, D1 is guided by the quest for dollars, and PSU is extremely profitable, so I don't suppose that the NCAA will show much interest, which is disgraceful and embrassing.

I don't understand how whacking Penn St football does a bit of good for anything or anybody. Prosecute those that knew. Those from Penn St that had nothing to do with this horror are already being punished enough.

The problem with this argument, IMO, is that it assumes the guilty parties can be limited to four or five men in leadership. From Head Coach to AD on up the chain.

What makes the Freeh report so damning is that there was an entire culture at Penn State that created this problem. The students who were rioting when the news broke aren't guiltless (google some youtube videos to see how these students act to opposing fans in pre game festivities and tell me there's not a lack of accountability that pervades all of that campus). They aren't nearly as guilty Sandusky (no one is) or JoePa, but they are a part of the problem. The entire University contributed to an ethos that hid a predator to protect a program/image that were a cash cow for the Penn State brand and endowment building.

When you have janitors witnessing crimes, but paralyzed to come forward because they are convinced, even if the evidence is there, that to do so will result in being terminated, you've got a seriously off the rails problem.

Thanks for responding respectfully- I am obviously in the minority on this one. Hate the sin but love the sinner. IMO it doesn't require a death sentence or any other campus wide penalty to ensure Penn St learns the proper lesson from this.  Does anyone really believe that if the NCAA doesn't institute a major penalty that the Penn St Board of Regents won't make the necessary changes to prevent this from ever happening again? Do people envision members of the administration secretly hoping the NCAA won't impose sanctions because they want to commence the committing of horrific crimes?
Penn St will end up implementing greater organizational control and oversight than probably any university without the NCAA issuing a single penalty.

A couple things here, and I'm really not trying to pile on emma, I appreciate the tone of your posts.

1. Hate the sin, love the sinner doesn't mean the sin goes unpunished. Some are reacting out of self-righteous vitriol. That's the wrong impulse and the wrong reason to come down on PSU. But those with wrong motives don't remove the need for a response.

2. If SMU deserved the death penalty for a pervasive culture of paying players, how does a campus wide football culture that protects pedophile rapists for the sake of reputation and $$ not deserve something far graver? This is a watershed moment for the NCAA and all of college football going forward.

3. The issue isn't just PSU learning their lesson. One would hope they've learned their lesson, but it really seems like they are more upset that they got caught - hence why they allowed him to lurk on campus for a decade after they knew how perverted he was. But it goes deeper. PSU as an institution and PSU football as a program should be punished for the part they played in this mess. When I punish my son it's not only to teach him to behave differently in the future, it's also because his past actions have earned discipline.

4. I agree with the notion that all current players should be given a one time chance to transfer with no loss eligibility or need to sit out a season. I also agree that victories should be vacated. JoePa may have won the games, but it was only because they covered up a scandal of this magnitude. If this hadn't been buried, it absolutely would have affected his ability to weather the storm/slump mid-decade and would have hurt recruiting. Not sure he ever breaks Robinsons mark without the coverup.

5. Whether they will actually drop the bomb on PSU is another thing altogether. It's one thing to nail SMU, it's another to knock off a blue-blood program like Penn State. This shouldn't matter, but it will affect what happens.

Bottom line, the whole thing is one disgusting mess. No amount of jail time for Sandusky or monetary reparations to the victims will ever remove this stigma. A death penalty won't take away the scars. But for almost 15 years these victims and their parents have been assaulted and tortured with a culture that not only didn't act, it protected an environment that perpetuated the evil. In many ways, the death penalty to PSU wouldn't be enough.

[Gregory Sager]

Very well said, Hazzben. I agree with all of your points. Concerning #4, however, there is the matter of timing. When Southern Methodist was given the death penalty by the NCAA in 1987, the decision was handed down in February. That gave SMU football players plenty of time to arrange their transfers to other D1 football schools. (In fact, coaches from other D1 schools swooped down like vultures on the SMU campus in Dallas once the NCAA's decision was handed down.) Were the death penalty to be handed to Penn State, even if it happened as quickly as tomorrrow (which isn't going to happen), there is no way that PSU football players would have a sufficient interval to arrange transfers to other schools in time to enroll for 2012-13, take part in preseason camp, etc. Given NCAA rules regarding eligibility, they'd all be basically forced to stay out of school for the entire 2012-13 school year while they arranged their transfers. And that's an undue hardship that they don't deserve, because at that point it becomes less a matter of being able to play football and more a matter of the NCAA interfering with the academic progress of student-athletes.

I hate to say it, but the Faustian bargain of providing athletes with full college scholarships forces the NCAA's hand in terms of how it treats the schools that provide them. The NCAA can't put itself in a position where it can hamper the college education of student-athletes by its actions.

If the NCAA does, in fact, hand PSU the death penalty, don't look for it to happen until the end of the upcoming PSU football season at the earliest.

[hazzben]

If the NCAA does, in fact, hand PSU the death penalty, don't look for it to happen until the end of the upcoming PSU football season at the earliest.

Agrred. I'd be really surprised if they killed it off before or during this current season. That would be a very sudden response, and the NCAA doesn't do anything quickly.

If they drop the hammer, they should wait for the conclusion of the season and do it with all the evidence before them and carefully examined. To announce the DP right now would just appear reactionary, IMO.

[USee]

If you haven't yet seen it, read this column written by SI's Rick Reilly about the Paterno legacy.

http://espn.go.com/espn/story/_/id/8162972/joe-paterno-true-legacy (newer link per GS)

http://espn.go.com/espn/story/_/id/7492873/rick-reilly-paterno-true-legacy (from January by RR)

[dahlby]

USee,

Great article. Plus K for sharing.

Reminds me of Woody Hayes....one big mistake and....................

[Gregory Sager]

If you haven't yet seen it, read this column written by SI's Rick Reilly about the Paterno legacy.

http://espn.go.com/espn/story/_/id/7492873/rick-reilly-paterno-true-legacy

Yep. That's what Reilly wrote in January, when the media first broke the news about the Sandusky scandal.

Now read what Reilly had to say just this past week, after the release of the Freeh Report:

http://espn.go.com/espn/story/_/id/8162972/joe-paterno-true-legacy

Still remind you of Woody Hayes, Dahlby?

[USee]

Greg,

Thanks. That's the link I was actually trying to post. Operator error.

[irisheagle]

If you haven't yet seen it, read this column written by SI's Rick Reilly about the Paterno legacy.

http://espn.go.com/espn/story/_/id/7492873/rick-reilly-paterno-true-legacy

Thats a good story, and a good point that were afl talking about his worst but why not his best. No doubt the institution needs to be punished hard for this but like said before you need to do that without punishing the students, IMHO they should wait till after this fall season then drop the death penalty, but lifting all transfer restrictions from players at psu. What happens could affect a llt more than just there program, college is about students learning and having that college experience, so I say punish the program but let the students do as they please.

[Gregory Sager]

Greg,

Thanks. That's the link I was actually trying to post. Operator error.

It's actually useful to read Reilly's two columns back-to-back, because the change in tone -- and the change in attitude -- is so drastic. Reilly went from being one of Paterno's staunchest defenders in the media back in January to someone who today pulls no punches in vilifying Paterno as a sneaky, dishonest, craven megalomaniac.

[hazzben]

Greg,

Thanks. That's the link I was actually trying to post. Operator error.

It's actually useful to read Reilly's two columns back-to-back, because the change in tone -- and the change in attitude -- is so drastic. Reilly went from being one of Paterno's staunchest defenders in the media back in January to someone who today pulls no punches in vilifying Paterno as a sneaky, dishonest, craven megalomaniac.

Yeah, it's a stark contrast. But I think it says a lot about Reilly. I don't always agree with his take, but initially he was giving Paterno the benefit of the doubt and taking him at his word, that he did what he thought he needed to do and in hindsight wished he'd done more. But when the full evidence came out, RR was absolutely willing to re-evaluate his prior stance. I give him props for that, not always an easy thing to do when you've made prior statements as publicly as he had.

[Mugsy]

As a general rule, the reigning CCIW offensive player of the year doesn't sit the bench. No way Meador is anything but day 1 starter in my view. Jordan Roberts will be a luxury as a backup and will likely have some packages for him as a wildcat QB (and a very capable one at that!) but Garrett Meador is your starter from day 1. I can't imagine any other scenario.

I have to agree with USee here.  Could a one year position change be in the books for Roberts?  I don't see where he would go though.

Just so it is clear, I didn't say that Roberts would start.  I merely stated that in the past Wheaton has used multiple QB's early in the year.

[izzy stradlin]

As a general rule, the reigning CCIW offensive player of the year doesn't sit the bench. No way Meador is anything but day 1 starter in my view. Jordan Roberts will be a luxury as a backup and will likely have some packages for him as a wildcat QB (and a very capable one at that!) but Garrett Meador is your starter from day 1. I can't imagine any other scenario.

I have to agree with USee here.  Could a one year position change be in the books for Roberts?  I don't see where he would go though.

Just so it is clear, I didn't say that Roberts would start.  I merely stated that in the past Wheaton has used multiple QB's early in the year.

I'm a little worried they will use both.