FB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[Titan Q]

Thus, the inability of the CCIW to make much headway in the D3 football playoffs takes on a disproportionate weight compared to basketball playoff performance in terms of how you measure the league. In other words, the post-season shortcomings of the top tier in CCIW football drag down the league more in a given year than would a similar lack of positive results for CCIW basketball's top tier, because post-season football games, for lack of a better term, "count" more than do post-season basketball games.

But outside of the two D3 death squads, the CCIW has done very well in the playoffs. 

* From 1992 through 2011...
  - CCIW playoff record vs Mount Union & UW-Whitewater = 0-15
  - CCIW playoff record vs all other teams = 24-9 (.727)

* From 2000 through 2011...
  - CCIW playoff record vs Mount Union & UW-Whitwater = 0-11
  - CCIW playoff record vs all other teams = 20-6 (.769)

In the last 18 seasons the CCIW has had representation in the NCAA playoffs, UW-Whitewater and/or Mount Union have knocked the CCIW out 14 times.

It would seem to me that has to get factored into the conversation.  Does the CCIW really have post-season shortcomings...or has the CCIW just run into the Purple Powers year after year after year?

[AndOne]

In this corner wearing the green trunks...........And, in the opposite corner wearing the blue trunks........

Love the banter. 

I think both TQ and GS make some valid points.

As for myself, I was the one that initially somewhat disagreed with kiko, prompting some of Mr. Sager's comments which in turn were responded to by Mr. TQ. I just want to make it clear that I did not say the CCIW was a great (football) conference. What I did say, and firmly believe, is that with 3 of its 8 teams in the top ranked 19, and 2 more receiving votes, the CCIW ranks "very highly" on the national scene.

Additionally, the inability of any conference team to beat either Whitewater or Mt. Union is NOT the yardstick by which greatness can or should be measured. If it were, no conference outside the WIAC or OAC would be able to be considered "great" because nobody from any other conference has been able to beat either team for the last 7 years.
And while we're on the subject, is anyone surprised that no team besides Whitewater and Union has even appeared in the championship game for the last 7 years?

[CardinalAlum]

3 CCIW teams ranked and another receiving votes.

NCC - 13
IWU - 16
Wheaton - 19

Elmhurst has 5 votes. 

How many votes did Benedictine get?  . Give me a break....

[bluejay4ever]

Bluejay4ever/L-Ghost-

As others have chimed in with me,  it's nice Elmhurst picked up a home win yes, agreed.  However, to think Elmhurst is suddenly playoff caliber, or 1 of the top 3 teams in the CCIW (presently), is premature because they have yet to prove themselves against A) A currently playoff positioned team and B) the incumbent 1, 2, 3, etc. of the CCIW.  Namely NC/IWU/Wheaton (in any particular order). 

IMO- Right now it's still too early to really gauge where the CCIW is going to pan out, but an arbitrary view would be
1) NC
2) IWU
3) WHEATON (injuries and health is going to make WC a 3 or 4)
4) Carthage/EC
5) rest of the conference

Again, this is just going by the 1 game I have seen thus far, and some stats in the paper/net.

As much as I am a super fan of the Blue Jays and drink more than my share of the blue punch I do realize that they have to beat a Wheaton, NC, or IWU to be considered into that level. I believe this year they have a legitimate shot at being in the top 3. Although some people are down playing the Trine game I was really impressed with some of their athletes and size. They reminded me of that second tier CCIW type of team that would be in a fight in each game. But for EC to become a member of that top tier they have to beat those teams which is exactly what they did. It is going to be a fun season to see how things play out. One of the most encouraging things is starting with this group of seniors is the discipline they show on the field. That is something that as each recruiting class that Coach Lester has had becomes seniors will only improve over time. I think that is a step that has been lacking over the years with the limited amount of seniors they have had. That is changing and each year the number of upper classmen are improving. There is a huge difference mentally and physically when you are putting 21 year olds out there instead of 18 year olds.

I can't let this one go. Beating one of the top tier teams does not automatically put a team into the top tier. A team has to consistently beat top tier teams to be considered top tier. The win may signify some improvement. But a win doesn't justify "top tier" status. Win these games against top tier teams more times than lose them. Then, they can be considered "top tier."

I think everyone is being a little too literal here. My statement was about getting into the top tier for this season. Obviously from a historical perspective one year does not make a program. If that was the case I would play dumb and pound our chest of the early 80's teams and call us a dynasty. But as you take one year at a time I am going to pound my chest, take another sip of my bluejay drink and hope for the top tier "this year!"

By the way jaybird do you have your north central underroos on right now? Starting to sound like you have been captured by the evil empire (joking, not literal so let's save the evil unintended reply)

[izzy stradlin]

Thus, the inability of the CCIW to make much headway in the D3 football playoffs takes on a disproportionate weight compared to basketball playoff performance in terms of how you measure the league. In other words, the post-season shortcomings of the top tier in CCIW football drag down the league more in a given year than would a similar lack of positive results for CCIW basketball's top tier, because post-season football games, for lack of a better term, "count" more than do post-season basketball games.

But outside of the two D3 death squads, the CCIW has done very well in the playoffs. 

* From 1992 through 2011...
  - CCIW playoff record vs Mount Union & UW-Whitewater = 0-15
  - CCIW playoff record vs all other teams = 24-9 (.727)

* From 2000 through 2011...
  - CCIW playoff record vs Mount Union & UW-Whitwater = 0-11
  - CCIW playoff record vs all other teams = 20-6 (.769)

In the last 18 seasons the CCIW has had representation in the NCAA playoffs, UW-Whitewater and/or Mount Union have knocked the CCIW out 14 times.

It would seem to me that has to get factored into the conversation.  Does the CCIW really have post-season shortcomings...or has the CCIW just run into the Purple Powers year after year after year?

Good info.  That 20-6 record is impressive.

I believe conference strength should be assessed top to bottom evenly.  The 8th place team's performance is just as important as a potential national champion.   No conference power ranking you see published ever really does this.  It really should be called the "top of the conference" rankings.   More objectively, Mount Union could really be considered an outlier from the rest of the OAC.

I actually think the CCIW is just as strong in football as it is in basketball.   The Mount Union/Whitewater title era simply clouds the way we interpret things.

Look at NPU.  They can't win a CCIW game in over a decade yet their non-conference record over that time was over .500 with victories over programs that show up in the post-season or win their conference on occasion such as U of C, WashU, Benedictine.

[Mr. Ypsi]

Even the six non-UMU/UWW losses is somewhat misleading.  I haven't tracked them down, but memory says one was to a superior OAC runner-up (Capital, don't recall the year or victim), but two were to overall lesser programs with all-world quarterbacks: NCC to Chad Rupp of Franklin (what did he have - 6 TDs??) in 2008 and IWU to Alex Tanney of Monmouth (who is getting serious attention from the NFL) last year - in THREE OTs.  Don't know about the other three, and too lazy to look them up.

[kiko]

Two thoughts on this...

In the last 18 seasons the CCIW has had representation in the NCAA playoffs, UW-Whitewater and/or Mount Union have knocked the CCIW out 14 times.

It would seem to me that has to get factored into the conversation.  Does the CCIW really have post-season shortcomings...or has the CCIW just run into the Purple Powers year after year after year?

I think it is more the latter than the former.

This is why I chose the word 'elite' as the yardstick rather than 'great'.  That 20-6 ex-UWW/MUU playoff record would likely be higher if the conference were geographically located somewhere that didn't ensure we would run into the Purple People Eaters on basically an annual basis... and lower if we faced them earlier than the typical Round of 16 or Quarterfinal matchups.

There's nothing wrong with being very good (essentially the surrogate for upper-middle-class IMO) -- but there is clearly a level above where we are today.  Really there are two elite programs in Division III.  As Gregory suggested above, it will take victories (plural) over these two before the CCIW can be considered in the same class.

What you've overlooked is that basketball and football are even less apples-to-apples than you think. CCIW football teams play three non-conference games apiece out of a ten-game schedule, so non-conference play measures 30% of the total. CCIW basketball teams play eleven non-conference games apiece out of a 25-game schedule, so non-conference play measures 44% of the total. The applicable non-conference database in terms of measuring the league's relative strength is thus much larger in basketball than it is in football, both numerically and proportionally with regard to the full season. In other words, you have to have a completely different mindset when it comes to measuring football league strength than you do for basketball.

I agree with this but think there is one more factor that plays a big role.  Strength of (non-conference) schedule varies much more in football than basketball.  When you are working with a set of variables that includes just three games per team, it is as easy to gorge on a few cupcakes as it is to schedule tougher opponents.  There are no guarantees, of course, that your opponents will play as advertised, but most coaches I suspect would have a general idea as they line up the schedule of how competitive their opponents will be.  Doing this over an eleven game basketball schedule, while certainly not impossible, is IMO more challenging.  And I think the separation between the very good and the very mediocre is much wider in football than in basketball.

The net result is that in football you have a smaller 'n', which gives greater weight to each individual data point.  And, since scheduling choices would seem (by my hypothesis at least) to have a heavier influence on a team's non-conference record, when you look at football, you are measuring the dependent rather than the independent variable to a much greater extent than you would be in basketball.

[kiko]

Even the six non-UMU/UWW losses is somewhat misleading.  I haven't tracked them down, but memory says one was to a superior OAC runner-up (Capital, don't recall the year or victim), but two were to overall lesser programs with all-world quarterbacks: NCC to Chad Rupp of Franklin (what did he have - 6 TDs??) in 2008 and IWU to Alex Tanney of Monmouth (who is getting serious attention from the NFL) last year - in THREE OTs.  Don't know about the other three, and too lazy to look them up.

1. Wabash 29-28 over North Central last year
2. Monmouth 33-27 over IWU last year
3. Bethel 15-10 over Wheaton in 2010
4. Franklin 38-28 over North Central in 2008
5. Capital 41-13 over North Central in 2006
6. Capital 21-19 over North Central in 2005

Prior to the 2010 loss, Mount had been the team to eliminate the five most recent Wheaton playoff teams.

[Titan Q]

This is why I chose the word 'elite' as the yardstick rather than 'great'.  That 20-6 ex-UWW/MUU playoff record would likely be higher if the conference were geographically located somewhere that didn't ensure we would run into the Purple People Eaters on basically an annual basis... and lower if we faced them earlier than the typical Round of 16 or Quarterfinal matchups.

Here are the playoff rounds the CCIW has faced Mount Union and UW-Whitewater since 2000...

2001 - Augustana vs MUC, Round 2
2002 - Wheaton vs MUC, Round 2
2003 - Wheaton vs MUC, Round 2
2004 - Carthage vs MUC, Round 3 and Wheaton vs MUC, Round 2
2005 - Augustana vs MUC, Round 2
2006 - Wheaton vs MUC, Round 2
2007 - North Central vs UW-W, Round 2
2008 - Wheaton vs MUC, Round 4
2009 - Illinois Wesleyan vs UW-W, Round 2
2010 - North Central vs MUC, Round 3


In terms of running into these two powers, the CCIW could not be located in much worse of a location really.  Consider...

1) The CCIW is in the same region as Mount Union (the North).

2) All 8 teams are within 500* miles of Whitewater, WI.  It's just 125 miles or so from the west suburbs up to Whitewater.

3) 7 of 8 teams are within 500* miles of Alliance, OH.

* the NCAA's magic number for bus vs fly

[NCF]

This is why I chose the word 'elite' as the yardstick rather than 'great'.  That 20-6 ex-UWW/MUU playoff record would likely be higher if the conference were geographically located somewhere that didn't ensure we would run into the Purple People Eaters on basically an annual basis... and lower if we faced them earlier than the typical Round of 16 or Quarterfinal matchups.

Here are the playoff rounds the CCIW has faced Mount Union and UW-Whitewater since 2000...

2001 - Augustana vs MUC, Round 2
2002 - Wheaton vs MUC, Round 2
2003 - Wheaton vs MUC, Round 2
2004 - Carthage vs MUC, Round 3 and Wheaton vs MUC, Round 2
2005 - Augustana vs MUC, Round 2
2006 - Wheaton vs MUC, Round 2
2007 - North Central vs UW-W, Round 2
2008 - Wheaton vs MUC, Round 4
2009 - Illinois Wesleyan vs UW-W, Round 2
2010 - North Central vs MUC UWW, Round 3


In terms of running into these two powers, the CCIW could not be located in much worse of a location really.  Consider...

1) The CCIW is in the same region as Mount Union (the North).

2) All 8 teams are within 500* miles of Whitewater, WI.  It's just 125 miles or so from the west suburbs up to Whitewater.

3) 7 of 8 teams are within 500* miles of Alliance, OH.

* the NCAA's magic number for bus vs fly

Which is why I've always said the road to Salem goes through Mount or UWW (both if you want to raise the trophy), no other way to get there.

[matblake]

If you are talking about the playoffs, once you get out of the first weekend, the level of play steps up.  It just happens that the CCIW is close to Mt. Union and UWW.  However, if you are out west you can complain that you always run into Linfield or UWW.  If you are in the South you can complain about Mary Hardin Baylor or Wesley.  All regions have their powerhouses.  It's just the way it is.  I think we too often use the "Purple" as a way to save face instead of understanding the great thing we have in CCIW football.  How great is it to be in a conference where every game has the potential of being competitive.  That's not to say that I don't want Wheaton to make the playoffs and go deep and win, but if you look at some of the conferences out there, we are very good.

[NCF]

If you are talking about the playoffs, once you get out of the first weekend, the level of play steps up.  It just happens that the CCIW is close to Mt. Union and UWW.  However, if you are out west you can complain that you always run into Linfield or UWW.  If you are in the South you can complain about Mary Hardin Baylor or Wesley.  All regions have their powerhouses.  It's just the way it is.  I think we too often use the "Purple" as a way to save face instead of understanding the great thing we have in CCIW football.  How great is it to be in a conference where every game has the potential of being competitive.  That's not to say that I don't want Wheaton to make the playoffs and go deep and win, but if you look at some of the conferences out there, we are very good.

So true.

[Augie6]

Taken off the Augie website game recap vs. Central

The Viking running game, which had some success at Dubuque last week, produced just 49 yards on 31 carries against Central.

Those Augie followers or who might have seen the game, is Central's D that good, or is Augie struggling to move the ball with their O-Line or Backs?  49 rush yards?  What has happened to the Augie fb program?

Jaybird,

Plain and simple, they are just not very good.  The program has been in decline for a few years (for many reasons, some of which have been discussed on this board in the past) and we seem to have hit rock bottom under the current coaching staff and administration.  Obviously, they are not able to attract the same type of athletes as they have in the past.  Facilities may have played a role in this, but that is being rectified by a huge stadium investment that will be completed prior to next season.  I was able to watch the game online vs Dubuque and there wasn't a skill player on Augie's squad that would worry a d-coordinator from another team.  Defensively, they couldn't get off the field.  Dubuque pretty much did whatever they wanted to on the offensive side of the ball and Augie couldn't stop them.  Watching their defensive scheme, I think that will be a common theme when they play better teams this season.   Unfortunately for Augie fans, I doubt that a new stadium will improve things significantly. Hopefully, I'm wrong on this, but I don't see things getting that much better under the current administration/staff.

[emma17]

If you are talking about the playoffs, once you get out of the first weekend, the level of play steps up.  It just happens that the CCIW is close to Mt. Union and UWW.  However, if you are out west you can complain that you always run into Linfield or UWW.  If you are in the South you can complain about Mary Hardin Baylor or Wesley.  All regions have their powerhouses.  It's just the way it is.  I think we too often use the "Purple" as a way to save face instead of understanding the great thing we have in CCIW football.  How great is it to be in a conference where every game has the potential of being competitive.  That's not to say that I don't want Wheaton to make the playoffs and go deep and win, but if you look at some of the conferences out there, we are very good.

From this WIAC poster's perspective I believe the CCIW is absolutley one of the best top to bottom conferences in the country.  IMO your top 4 teams would easily compete for the best record in head to head competition with any other conference's top 4 teams. 

The Purple Powers thing is strange to me.  Having seen so much of UWW and Mt- IMO the one thing that sets them apart from the other top teams in the country is execution more than anything else- and not talent.  Sure, there are some teams that make it deep that don't match up talent wise in all phases, but with the best teams I think it's execution.  I've seen NCC many times over the past few years and IMO it's not a talent issue.  Because NCC has dominated the conference the last couple (??) years I'm not sure where Wheaton and ICW stand in terms of their all-phases talent.  I watched Wheaton play NCC last year and it was pretty clear Wheaton was missing some parts.

Unfortunately for NCC and the CCIW in general, last year was the perfect chance to see how the best in your conference stood up to a beatable Mt. 

[wally_wabash]

Unfortunately for NCC and the CCIW in general, last year was the perfect chance to see how the best in your conference stood up to a beatable Mt.

I guess it wasn't.  Womp womp.