FB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[emma17]

OK Wally, we get that you think the CCIW sucks.

Yeah, that's not what I said and that's not what I think...and I think you know that. 

What I'd like to know is what conference(s) do you consider among the nation's elite?
I mean lets vanquish that (false) perception that many of us are apparently under. Give us some reality please.
I'm interested in your opinion.
Thanks.

See, it's not a question of which league is good and which league isn't.  The thing I'm trying to examine is why the polls so often value reputation over results with a specific focus on the teams in this league where, in my opinion, the reputation isn't quite fully supported by their on-field results.

Wally I appreciate your approach to this discussion- I think it's fair and thoughtful.
I'm one of the guilty ones that ranks the CCIW very highly year in and year out.  To be honest, the stats in your prior post regarding the CCIW's performance against better conferences surprised me. 

After some thought I realized the answer for me at least, comes back to the idea of quality losses and outlying losses.  UWEC lost to St. Thomas and St. John-is their 0-2 start indicative of a bad team- hardly.  The same holds true for the CCIW.  So many teams get blown out of the water in non conference games.  Whether it be in the regular season or the playoffs, for the most part a CCIW team is going to give their opponent a tough game.  It's hard to find examples of a CCIW team getting beat badly in a non-con or playoff game.  Granted some of the lower level CCIW's are playing an easier non-con schedule- but in those games they more than hold their own.  Additionally, I believe in outlying losses- the types of losses that occur that just don't fit with the true team. This will raise objections I know, but IMO if every NCC game this year was against La Crosse, NCC would finish with a 9-1 record.

At the end of the day, to me it's more about knowing you'll get a quality game (meaning the outcome will be in doubt into the 4th qrtr) from the majority of teams within a conference than it is about their overall wins and losses.           

Wow. Would you feel the same way if LaCrosse was located in Illinois?  9-1 is a bit strong

Wow, No matter how much I like and typically agree with Emma, seeing we are both FIB's and Fremd fans (high school) 9-1 is too strong.   More like 7-3. 

WarhawkDad

9-1 does seem a bit over the top. I reckon in a 10 game series there are bound to be more outlying circumstances that occur and impact the result. Maybe I should say NCC's talent should result in a victory every time vs La Crosse. Full disclosure- I attended the NCC vs Redlands game last Saturday so perhaps I'm getting bamboozled by one great performance- when NCC is executing- they are dominant. 

NCC vs UWW in 2010- 10 times?  NCC wins their fair share. You think about all the adjustments that would occur after week 1. UWW safeties probably don't get beat deep 2-3 times again. But at the same time, the NCC players gain critical confidence that they can play w UWW. They convince themselves that eliminating a couple turnovers results in a victory.  I'll go UWW 6.5 wins (the half game was called due to weather w UWW up 17-10 at half). 

[02 Warhawk]

NCC vs UWW in 2010- 10 times?  NCC wins their fair share. You think about all the adjustments that would occur after week 1. UWW safeties probably don't get beat deep 2-3 times again. But at the same time, the NCC players gain critical confidence that they can play w UWW. They convince themselves that eliminating a couple turnovers results in a victory.  I'll go UWW 6.5 wins (the half game was called due to weather w UWW up 17-10 at half).

With or without a healthy Blanchard?

[New Tradition]

What would NCC have been in 10 games against Wabash last year?  Redlands? UW-W in 2010?

7-3
8-2
3-7 if Blanchard is healthy

[emma17]

NCC vs UWW in 2010- 10 times?  NCC wins their fair share. You think about all the adjustments that would occur after week 1. UWW safeties probably don't get beat deep 2-3 times again. But at the same time, the NCC players gain critical confidence that they can play w UWW. They convince themselves that eliminating a couple turnovers results in a victory.  I'll go UWW 6.5 wins (the half game was called due to weather w UWW up 17-10 at half).

With or without a healthy Blanchard?

A healthy Blanchard is a BIG difference maker. 8-2 or 9-1 UWW.
His stats weren't gaudy except TD to Int ratio. The 2010 receiving corp was excellent and Matt could could avoid pressure and gain yardage w his legs.
I think NCC was without their #1 QB too though.

[New Tradition]

NCC vs UWW in 2010- 10 times?  NCC wins their fair share. You think about all the adjustments that would occur after week 1. UWW safeties probably don't get beat deep 2-3 times again. But at the same time, the NCC players gain critical confidence that they can play w UWW. They convince themselves that eliminating a couple turnovers results in a victory.  I'll go UWW 6.5 wins (the half game was called due to weather w UWW up 17-10 at half).

With or without a healthy Blanchard?

A healthy Blanchard is a BIG difference maker. 8-2 or 9-1 UWW.
His stats weren't gaudy except TD to Int ratio. The 2010 receiving corp was excellent and Matt could could avoid pressure and gain yardage w his legs.
I think NCC was without their #1 QB too though.

Yes.  Brad Crackel had his ribs crackeled in the previous game.  Though Stanek, the starter for the 2010 UWW game, did see a pretty decent amount of action at QB earlier in the season, Crackel emerged as "the guy" in the latter half.

[NCF]

NCC vs UWW in 2010- 10 times?  NCC wins their fair share. You think about all the adjustments that would occur after week 1. UWW safeties probably don't get beat deep 2-3 times again. But at the same time, the NCC players gain critical confidence that they can play w UWW. They convince themselves that eliminating a couple turnovers results in a victory.  I'll go UWW 6.5 wins (the half game was called due to weather w UWW up 17-10 at half).

With or without a healthy Blanchard?

A healthy Blanchard is a BIG difference maker. 8-2 or 9-1 UWW.
His stats weren't gaudy except TD to Int ratio. The 2010 receiving corp was excellent and Matt could could avoid pressure and gain yardage w his legs.
I think NCC was without their #1 QB too though.

Yes.  Brad Crackel had his ribs crackeled in the previous game.  Though Stanek, the starter for the 2010 UWW game, did see a pretty decent amount of action at QB earlier in the season, Crackel emerged as "the guy" in the latter half.

They did rotate quite a bit throughout the 2010 season. Unfortunately for Crackel, he fell out of favor early in 2011.

[New Tradition]

NCC vs UWW in 2010- 10 times?  NCC wins their fair share. You think about all the adjustments that would occur after week 1. UWW safeties probably don't get beat deep 2-3 times again. But at the same time, the NCC players gain critical confidence that they can play w UWW. They convince themselves that eliminating a couple turnovers results in a victory.  I'll go UWW 6.5 wins (the half game was called due to weather w UWW up 17-10 at half).

With or without a healthy Blanchard?

A healthy Blanchard is a BIG difference maker. 8-2 or 9-1 UWW.
His stats weren't gaudy except TD to Int ratio. The 2010 receiving corp was excellent and Matt could could avoid pressure and gain yardage w his legs.
I think NCC was without their #1 QB too though.

Yes.  Brad Crackel had his ribs crackeled in the previous game.  Though Stanek, the starter for the 2010 UWW game, did see a pretty decent amount of action at QB earlier in the season, Crackel emerged as "the guy" in the latter half.

They did rotate quite a bit throughout the 2010 season. Unfortunately for Crackel, he fell out of favor early in 2011.

Actually, I lied.  Looking back at the game notes from that season, it was the Wesleyan game that he was hurt in.  He made some minor appearances after that, but Stanek was the guy all throughout the playoffs. 

[NCF]

NCC vs UWW in 2010- 10 times?  NCC wins their fair share. You think about all the adjustments that would occur after week 1. UWW safeties probably don't get beat deep 2-3 times again. But at the same time, the NCC players gain critical confidence that they can play w UWW. They convince themselves that eliminating a couple turnovers results in a victory.  I'll go UWW 6.5 wins (the half game was called due to weather w UWW up 17-10 at half).

With or without a healthy Blanchard?

A healthy Blanchard is a BIG difference maker. 8-2 or 9-1 UWW.
His stats weren't gaudy except TD to Int ratio. The 2010 receiving corp was excellent and Matt could could avoid pressure and gain yardage w his legs.
I think NCC was without their #1 QB too though.

Yes.  Brad Crackel had his ribs crackeled in the previous game.  Though Stanek, the starter for the 2010 UWW game, did see a pretty decent amount of action at QB earlier in the season, Crackel emerged as "the guy" in the latter half.

They did rotate quite a bit throughout the 2010 season. Unfortunately for Crackel, he fell out of favor early in 2011.

Actually, I lied.  Looking back at the game notes from that season, it was the Wesleyan game that he was hurt in.  He made some minor appearances after that, but Stanek was the guy all throughout the playoffs.

Cardinal fans don't lie, do they?

[WarhawkDad]

NCC vs UWW in 2010- 10 times?  NCC wins their fair share. You think about all the adjustments that would occur after week 1. UWW safeties probably don't get beat deep 2-3 times again. But at the same time, the NCC players gain critical confidence that they can play w UWW. They convince themselves that eliminating a couple turnovers results in a victory.  I'll go UWW 6.5 wins (the half game was called due to weather w UWW up 17-10 at half).

With or without a healthy Blanchard?

A healthy Blanchard is a BIG difference maker. 8-2 or 9-1 UWW.
His stats weren't gaudy except TD to Int ratio. The 2010 receiving corp was excellent and Matt could could avoid pressure and gain yardage w his legs.
I think NCC was without their #1 QB too though.

Yes.  Brad Crackel had his ribs crackeled in the previous game.  Though Stanek, the starter for the 2010 UWW game, did see a pretty decent amount of action at QB earlier in the season, Crackel emerged as "the guy" in the latter half.

They did rotate quite a bit throughout the 2010 season. Unfortunately for Crackel, he fell out of favor early in 2011.

Actually, I lied.  Looking back at the game notes from that season, it was the Wesleyan game that he was hurt in.  He made some minor appearances after that, but Stanek was the guy all throughout the playoffs.

Cardinal fans don't lie, do they?

LOL, neither do Warhawk/WIAC fans.  I think with the passage of time we all tend to exercise a little "revisionist history". 

[Pat Coleman]

OK Wally, we get that you think the CCIW sucks.

Yeah, that's not what I said and that's not what I think...and I think you know that. 

What I'd like to know is what conference(s) do you consider among the nation's elite?
I mean lets vanquish that (false) perception that many of us are apparently under. Give us some reality please.
I'm interested in your opinion.
Thanks.

See, it's not a question of which league is good and which league isn't.  The thing I'm trying to examine is why the polls so often value reputation over results with a specific focus on the teams in this league where, in my opinion, the reputation isn't quite fully supported by their on-field results.

Wally I appreciate your approach to this discussion- I think it's fair and thoughtful.
I'm one of the guilty ones that ranks the CCIW very highly year in and year out.  To be honest, the stats in your prior post regarding the CCIW's performance against better conferences surprised me. 

After some thought I realized the answer for me at least, comes back to the idea of quality losses and outlying losses.  UWEC lost to St. Thomas and St. John-is their 0-2 start indicative of a bad team- hardly.  The same holds true for the CCIW.  So many teams get blown out of the water in non conference games.  Whether it be in the regular season or the playoffs, for the most part a CCIW team is going to give their opponent a tough game.  It's hard to find examples of a CCIW team getting beat badly in a non-con or playoff game.  Granted some of the lower level CCIW's are playing an easier non-con schedule- but in those games they more than hold their own.  Additionally, I believe in outlying losses- the types of losses that occur that just don't fit with the true team. This will raise objections I know, but IMO if every NCC game this year was against La Crosse, NCC would finish with a 9-1 record.

At the end of the day, to me it's more about knowing you'll get a quality game (meaning the outcome will be in doubt into the 4th qrtr) from the majority of teams within a conference than it is about their overall wins and losses.           

Wow. Would you feel the same way if LaCrosse was located in Illinois?  9-1 is a bit strong

Wow, No matter how much I like and typically agree with Emma, seeing we are both FIB's and Fremd fans (high school) 9-1 is too strong.   More like 7-3. 

WarhawkDad

If you watched the entire game, not just the highlights(or lowlights if your an NC fan ) 9-1 or 8-2 would be about right.

Interesting that you would project such consistency on a team that turned the ball over as much as NCC did that day.  The different perspectives are fun to explore on this board!

So what about the last couple of years?

What would NCC have been in 10 games against Wabash last year?  Redlands? UW-W in 2010?

The good news is that Emma now has no excuse to be Nervous Nellie during UWW-Lacrosse week this year.  And that's good because I think I may need help in calming other UW-W fans down during that week! 

6-4, 9-1, 1-9

[kiko]

What would NCC have been in 10 games against Wabash last year?  Redlands? UW-W in 2010?

Surprising to me that folks are so bullish on the Cards' prospects against Whitewater if we climb into the Wayback Machine and revisit the 2010 UWW matchup.  Yes, the Redbirds hung close in that game, but (1) there's not exactly a track record of CCIW schools demonstrating an ability to beat one of the Big Two, and (2) even with the best of the recent Cardinal teams, why would we expect North Central to win more than one or maybe two of these when even the other of the Big Two is sub-.500 against the Warhawks over the past few years.

(And I don't mean to grind on the CCIW -- just that optimism on this particular question strikes me as papering over a pretty big chasm in what other data points would suggest.)

[Langhorst_Ghost]

Saturday Night's Elmhurst/U of C game will be available live (as are all home games) on http://www.bluejaytv.com/ under lights at Langhorst at 6 pm.

After 9 years of non-conference dominance, The Bluejay September undefeated streak was snapped in Hyde Park last season.  Despite out gaining the Maroons by 200 yards, the 'Jays allowed a late special teams score and turned the ball over 4 times on their way to a disappointing 26 - 33 loss to Chicago.

Look for the 'Jays to stay focused in their last tune-up game before the bye week, in what has become a "revenge game" of sorts.

It's a Great Day to be a 'Jay!

[emma17]

What would NCC have been in 10 games against Wabash last year?  Redlands? UW-W in 2010?

Surprising to me that folks are so bullish on the Cards' prospects against Whitewater if we climb into the Wayback Machine and revisit the 2010 UWW matchup.  Yes, the Redbirds hung close in that game, but (1) there's not exactly a track record of CCIW schools demonstrating an ability to beat one of the Big Two, and (2) even with the best of the recent Cardinal teams, why would we expect North Central to win more than one or maybe two of these when even the other of the Big Two is sub-.500 against the Warhawks over the past few years.

(And I don't mean to grind on the CCIW -- just that optimism on this particular question strikes me as papering over a pretty big chasm in what other data points would suggest.)

Good post and plus K.
My answer to "why" is because NCC is close- and you have to at least be close before you can win.
If scores count as data points of the last Stagg Bowls and UWW v NCC - the teams are all competitive with each other.
I think 02 mentioned before that the one thing NCC seems to be a bit behind is in the passing game. The last three Stagg Bowl victories show a pretty balanced team from UWW. In 2009 Stagg UWW passed the ball to victory, in 2010 they ran it to victory and in 2011 they won on defense.
NCC is exceptional at 2 of the 3 now.

[NCF]

Construction  turns a six hour drive into  a 7 1/2 one! (: Boy this game better be good. LOL

[AndOne]

As most of us in the upper Midwest realize, Wisconsin's 2 seasons are winter and construction season.