FB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[Kovo]

I just think that it is pretty cool that NC faced 10(!) All-American players this year without a single one on our roster  -----yet somehow we went 9-3 and grabbed a piece of our 7th consecutive CCIW title.  Can you imagine what it would be like if we ever get some players? 

Great job coaching, (I guess) not so much in recruiting (apparently)!!  Hopefully, we will get some guys this offseason who can really play.   

[NCF]

I just think that it is pretty cool that NC faced 10(!) All-American players this year without a single one on our roster  -----yet somehow we went 9-3 and grabbed a piece of our 7th consecutive CCIW title.  Can you imagine what it would be like if we ever get some players? 

Great job coaching, (I guess) not so much in recruiting (apparently)!!  Hopefully, we will get some guys this offseason who can really play.   

Love this post:)

[CardinalAlum]

Everyone thinks they know how to pick an All-American team. I'd be glad to send someone the 929 players considered and let them have a whack at it.

As for Erik Westerberg, for the complaints here, there was also a complaint on Twitter that Westerberg wasn't high enough on the team. Some will ever be satisfied and we will not attempt to satisfy everyone.

Pat,

I can't even begin to think I know how to begin choosing an AA team.  That being said, I was merely stating my own extremely biased opinion () that I felt Nick Kukuc deserved some love in the top 8 RB's.  Very proud that the CCIW was mentioned with many well deserved selections.

As far as Westerberg, I feel that he was very well deserving of not only the CCIW defensive player of the year, but definitely an AA.   Watching bits of their games on the computer, he was all over the field.  I really feel that the NCC defense as a whole was excellent BUT I don't see that one player dominated like a Brian Lee, Lenny Radtke, Matt Wenger, former recipients of the DPOY award.  Again, one person's opinion. 

[Kovo]

Everyone thinks they know how to pick an All-American team. I'd be glad to send someone the 929 players considered and let them have a whack at it.

As for Erik Westerberg, for the complaints here, there was also a complaint on Twitter that Westerberg wasn't high enough on the team. Some will ever be satisfied and we will not attempt to satisfy everyone.

Pat,

I can't even begin to think I know how to begin choosing an AA team.  That being said, I was merely stating my own extremely biased opinion () that I felt Nick Kukuc deserved some love in the top 8 RB's.  Very proud that the CCIW was mentioned with many well deserved selections.

As far as Westerberg, I feel that he was very well deserving of not only the CCIW defensive player of the year, but definitely an AA.   Watching bits of their games on the computer, he was all over the field.  I really feel that the NCC defense as a whole was excellent BUT I don't see that one player dominated like a Brian Lee, Lenny Radtke, Matt Wenger, former recipients of the DPOY award.  Again, one person's opinion.

Let me start of by saying that if I had a vote, I would have selected Scottie Williams as the 1st team AA running back for his outstanding season from start to finish.  And, the only reason that I mention him is to get some sense of how Nick Kukuc stacks up compared to him, and some of the best backs in the nation---since there appears to be some debate of whether Kukuc was deserving of AA status, notwithstanding his omission.

To me, the most striking statistic was the fact Kukuc averaged 8.2 yards a carry (on 178 carries), compared to Williams' 6.2 (on 327 carries) a carry.  Could Kukuc have continued the average for another 149 carries?  Maybe maybe not---but that is why Williams would have my vote, because total yards aren't very close.  And, in the end the lack of carries is why he ends as NC's second career leading rusher, finishing behind Steve Holden, 3898 to 3739 yards, on 485 attempts compared to Holden's 764 attempts.

But back to the AA discussion----what about on the big stage?  In two playoff games Kukuc went for 442 yards on 45 carries, while Williams went for 314 yards on 62 carries.  Admittedly, Coe's defense was better than that of CLU and St. Thomas better than that Linfield.  But, again, Kukuc should be in the conversation, especially considering that Kukuc did not have an All-American offensive lineman blocking for him like Williams, or perhaps some of the other backs on the list.

In the end, I have no idea how All-American teams are selected, but it will be interesting to go through the seasons of the running backs selected for the honor, and making some comparisons. I know this however, whoever steps into the Cardinal backfield next year will have some real big shoes to fill.

[USee]

Newcardfan, which NCC defender got snubbed? Who would you remove to add an NCC defender? If you ar going to identify the problem, feel free to add a solution.

I think Kukuc is one o the top 3-4 RBs in the country. He should have been on there.

[ncc58]

All American teams were revealed.  I have a really hard time believing there were 8 RB's in the country better than Nick Kukuc. 

I do agree that failure to select Kukuc is a real head-scratcher.  How many RB's average over 7.0 a carry over a 2 year span?

I expected Kukoc to get snubbed for post season honors. His "problem" was that during the regular season, he shared responsibilities (to a degree) with Tassio. So while some RBs across the country were putting up ridiculous stats as their team's primary ball carrier, Kukoc was sharing carries. In the late season and into the playoffs, Kukoc was the primary RB and showed his talent.

I heard some grumbling about Westerberg during the season, as he was accumulating gaudy stats each week. The argument, although he is a fine player, is that he was the best defensive player on a mediocre team and other teams (NCC, Wheaton, EC) were playing second teamers in the 4th quarter of some games.

[ncc58]

I guess I'm a little surprised that NCC jumped to #7 and Elmhurst to #8 in the final poll (Wheaton at #21). With the disappointing finish by both playoffs teams, I thought that especially NCC would be closer #20.

[blue_jays]

All American teams were revealed.  I have a really hard time believing there were 8 RB's in the country better than Nick Kukuc. 

I do agree that failure to select Kukuc is a real head-scratcher.  How many RB's average over 7.0 a carry over a 2 year span?

I expected Kukoc to get snubbed for post season honors. His "problem" was that during the regular season, he shared responsibilities (to a degree) with Tassio. So while some RBs across the country were putting up ridiculous stats as their team's primary ball carrier, Kukoc was sharing carries. In the late season and into the playoffs, Kukoc was the primary RB and showed his talent.

I heard some grumbling about Westerberg during the season, as he was accumulating gaudy stats each week. The argument, although he is a fine player, is that he was the best defensive player on a mediocre team and other teams (NCC, Wheaton, EC) were playing second teamers in the 4th quarter of some games.

In terms of Westerberg, he could be facing 4th string or Herschel Walker, it doesn't matter. His job as a linebacker is to make tackles of whoever is on the field, and that doesn't change regardless of opponent/opponent skill level. Evidently, the people who vote for these awards saw his value. If we did any opponent-adjusting nonsense, then the only people who would get any postseason awards love would be whichever team got top 4 at end of the season and that's it. It just sounds like a ton of sour grapes from people lately. If you need awards to make you feel better about your team or help validate their existence, you're missing the point.

[Pat Coleman]

I guess I'm a little surprised that NCC jumped to #7 and Elmhurst to #8 in the final poll (Wheaton at #21). With the disappointing finish by both playoffs teams, I thought that especially NCC would be closer #20.

I don't think the voters were disappointed with North Central winning at (then-No. 8) Cal Lutheran and Elmhurst winning at (then-No. 10) Coe. Elmhurst gave St. Thomas its best battle pre-Salem (vaulting it above Hobart and everyone else in the East) and North Central thoroughly trounced Elmhurst in the regular season.

[Kovo]

All American teams were revealed.  I have a really hard time believing there were 8 RB's in the country better than Nick Kukuc. 

I do agree that failure to select Kukuc is a real head-scratcher.  How many RB's average over 7.0 a carry over a 2 year span?

I expected Kukoc to get snubbed for post season honors. His "problem" was that during the regular season, he shared responsibilities (to a degree) with Tassio. So while some RBs across the country were putting up ridiculous stats as their team's primary ball carrier, Kukoc was sharing carries. In the late season and into the playoffs, Kukoc was the primary RB and showed his talent.

I heard some grumbling about Westerberg during the season, as he was accumulating gaudy stats each week. The argument, although he is a fine player, is that he was the best defensive player on a mediocre team and other teams (NCC, Wheaton, EC) were playing second teamers in the 4th quarter of some games.

Let's take a look at the RBs selected as 4th team AAs to see how Kukuc stacks up.  I looked at yards, per carry average and TDs.  I also included receptions and receiving yards, since a back needs to be able to catch the ball to be a complete player, IMHO.  And (as a disclaimer) the stats were taken from the school's websites---so don't shoot the messenger if they are wrong.  But here is a comparison:

Player        Yards       Average          TDs             Receptions         Receiving Yards        Total Yards

Kukuc         1451          8.2               17                  14                     219                       1670

Riguad        1555          6.5               22                   8                       94                       1649

Heinsohn     1253          6.8               22                   0                        0                        1253

So there are the numbers.  Everyone can draw their own conclusions.  BUT, since I'm having so much fun,
Let me throw an RB who received  2nd team AA honors:

Brooks        1299          6.2               16                   5                        62                       1361

[Pat Coleman]

However, we use 11-week (full regular season) stats to level the playing field and make sure people with great regular seasons on non-playoff teams are not buried by those who have an extra game or two. (And then, really, where do you cut the stats off. Week 12? Week 13? Week 14?

Kukuc   10   133   1009   100.9   7.6   14   347   3   2
Brooks   9   208   1299   144.3   6.2   16   378   1   0
Williams   10   267   1732   173.2   6.5   20   407   1   1

The point made earlier about wondering if a player can perform as well on 25 carries a game as he does on 13 is well-made. I would never project someone to maintain his pace given a much heavier load.

When you're looking at Heinsohn, it's a mistake to assume is not "able to catch the ball." W&L runs the triple option, so its desire to throw the ball is a significant factor here.

[Kovo]

However, we use 11-week (full regular season) stats to level the playing field and make sure people with great regular seasons on non-playoff teams are not buried by those who have an extra game or two. (And then, really, where do you cut the stats off. Week 12? Week 13? Week 14?

Kukuc   10   133   1009   100.9   7.6   14   347   3   2
Brooks   9   208   1299   144.3   6.2   16   378   1   0
Williams   10   267   1732   173.2   6.5   20   407   1   1

The point made earlier about wondering if a player can perform as well on 25 carries a game as he does on 13 is well-made. I would never project someone to maintain his pace given a much heavier load.

When you're looking at Heinsohn, it's a mistake to assume is not "able to catch the ball." W&L runs the triple option, so its desire to throw the ball is a significant factor here.

I'm glad that I made the point!!    And, you raise a number of great issues like incorporating the playoff stats into the equation (or not), as well as the offense a particular team runs.  Truth be told, I haven't seen very many of the players outside of the CCIW, so all I can do is look at numbers on the page (and pick and choose the ones that support my argument). 

"There are three kinds of lies.  Lies, damn lies, and statistics."-----Mark Twain

[79jaybird]

"...disappointing finish by both teams"?

I don't think Elmhurst had a disappointing finish at all. We had our best year ever in terms of distance, and 3rd CCIW title, first since 1980, I think Elmhurst is very happy with their season and can build off it.  To say Elmhurst had a poor playoff run is incorrect. 

[Kovo]

"...disappointing finish by both teams"?

I don't think Elmhurst had a disappointing finish at all. We had our best year ever in terms of distance, and 3rd CCIW title, first since 1980, I think Elmhurst is very happy with their season and can build off it.  To say Elmhurst had a poor playoff run is incorrect.

And, that's the problem with you Jaybird.  You have the same affliction that I suffer from.  Which is, that you are happy with conference titles, players receiving national honors, and the team playing an exciting brand of competitive playoff football. 

Haven't they taught that this is not enough?  Isn't second place first loser?  Isn't it time that you start considering whether the coaching staff has taken you as far as they can go?  I mean---have they really ever won the BIG one?  And, looking back on the season---didn't you have lots of games that were a little too close for comfort?  Shouldn't you be able to smash and humiliate everyone you play?

You can tell that over the past 7 years as an NC alum that I am learning-----but there is still that part of me that feels very satisfied that we have a piece of the CCIW title this year, and had the joy of winning a playoff game (I know, I know, go lie down until the feeling passes).

[Augie6]

Newcardfan, which NCC defender got snubbed? Who would you remove to add an NCC defender? If you ar going to identify the problem, feel free to add a solution.

I think Kukuc is one o the top 3-4 RBs in the country. He should have been on there.

Usee,

Good luck getting a response.  I've asked twice for NCF to justify the uninformed comments made, and it's been complete silence (other than saying "love the post" from Kovo86).  NCC had a very good defense this year, but as CardAlum pointed out, they really didn't have that dominant player that would have clearly stood out as an AA.  I counted 6 teams that actually had better overall defensive stats (although none play in a conference as tough as the CCIW) that didn't have a player named to one of the AA teams.  The point is, a very good defensive team doesn't always translate into All American selections.  My huge issue with NCF was not the frustration over no Cardinal players being selected, but the negative (and classless) comments about a very deserving player from Augie who was.  IMHO, an apology to Mr. Westerberg would be in order.