FB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[79jaybird]

Wheaton's recruiting base is so different than the rest of the CCIW.  First thing Coach Swider asks, "Do you love the Lord?" there are certain features away from the game that Swider & Co. look for first,  then they dive into the skills & abilities.  there have been a few Wheaton & DuPage Co. guys on the rosters so they don't purposely "avoid" DPC if that is what somebody (earlier) was implying.

[Gregory Sager]

I'm not sure how many other schools there are of the same religious persuasion around the country, but I'm guessing not a great number.

Bad guess, Mark. Evangelical colleges are actually pretty thick on the ground. Just here within the Chicagoland area I can name six: North Park, Wheaton, Trinity International, Trinity Christian, Judson, and Olivet Nazarene. And four of those six schools have football programs.

That's not to say that they're all interchangeable in terms of enrollment philosophy, academic standards, cost, social policies, and the specifics of religious belief. But there is a very large number of evangelical colleges and universities in the United States, and many of them have football programs.

Accordingly, its always been my opinion that WC doesn't really have to do that much recruiting due to the fact I believe many kids actually recruit themselves to Wheaton rather than the usual action of the school going out and recruiting the student-athlete.

Again, you're quite wrong about that. Mugsy's already given you the grand tour of reasons as to why it's not only necessary but also not a piece of cake for Wheaton to actively recruit football players. In fact, I'd argue that Coach Swider has to operate at a different and more difficult level than that of most of his coaching colleagues at Wheaton, such as Paul Giuliano (men's soccer), Scott Bradley (track & field), and Mike Schauer (men's basketball). That's because Swider has the burden of having to locate and persuade a much larger group of recruits each year, and those recruits come from a smaller pool of potential student-athletes, because a lot of Christian high schools don't have football programs.

Look at how many incoming kids have gone to Christian high schools. Its the same with all sports at WC, not just football. Wheaton rarely competes for the same kids with other conference schools except, in some cases, with North Park. Their primary competition for recruits is usually with other Christian colleges across the country rather than with other CCIW schools.

What you're failing to recognize, I think, is just how many Christian colleges there are out there, and how many of them are after the same players that Wheaton's after. Just because there's five CCIW schools chasing a kid from Glenbard West, and Wheaton's not one of them, doesn't mean that Wheaton's having an easier time of it. Wheaton may also be duking it out with Westmont, Biola, Seattle Pacific, and Point Loma Nazarene for a kid from California.

I'd argue the fact Wheaton has to go all over the US to find their 25-30 recruits each year should point out the fact Wheaton is pulling from a smaller bucket of possible recruits.  Without the assistance from Alumni who know the school & know the type of person and player Wheaton is looking for, identifying potential recruits to compete for CCIW crowns would be tenuous.

I agree with everything you've written, Mugsy, but one point that you haven't mentioned that can be named as an argument in Mark's favor is name recognition. I wonder sometimes if non-evangelicals are aware of just how high a level of name recognition Wheaton enjoys in conservative Christian circles. NPU coaches and admissions recruiters have all learned, to their collective chagrin, just how limited North Park's name recognition is among evangelical households. Same goes for their counterparts at Messiah, Gordon, Taylor, Trinity International, Grace, Grove City, both Bethels, Biola, etc. But Wheaton is a household name in those circles, which means that Wheaton coaches have a leg up on those other schools when it comes to recruiting.

Name recognition isn't going to erase the fact that a Wheaton education is mind-bogglingly expensive, or that the academic hurdle for acceptance is a high one, or that an evangelical school like Westmont or Seattle Pacific can give out athletic scholies while Wheaton can't. But, as I said, it's a nice leg up that the other evangelical schools don't have.

I will add that it seems this topic comes up every year, along with the discussion on why it has been so hard for NPU to build a quality program.  [Note: I am not requesting for Greg to pull out his dissertation on the challenges NPU faces, even though I'm sure he has this saved out on the PC in several locations so that he doesn't need to type it up each time.  ]

I had to move it to a flash drive, because it eats up too much memory.

Wheaton's recruiting base is so different than the rest of the CCIW.  First thing Coach Swider asks, "Do you love the Lord?" there are certain features away from the game that Swider & Co. look for first,  then they dive into the skills & abilities.  there have been a few Wheaton & DuPage Co. guys on the rosters so they don't purposely "avoid" DPC if that is what somebody (earlier) was implying.

Yes, but those DuPage County kids fall within the same profile as the Wheaton kids who hail from New Jersey, Oregon, Kentucky, etc. They aren't being recruited because of their proximity to the campus, in other words -- they're being recruited because they match the Wheaton College student profile.

The reason why Wheaton sports rosters have tended to include so many Wheaton North, WWS, Wheaton Academy, etc., kids over the years is because the village of Wheaton itself has a very strong evangelical demographic presence, and always has. That helps to explain why it's a dry town, and why the sidewalks all roll up at 9 pm on a weeknight.

[ncc_fan]

The City of Wheaton hasn't been dry since the 1980s, and now even hosts an annual Ale Fest!   

[Gregory Sager]

The City of Wheaton hasn't been dry since the 1980s, and now even hosts an annual Ale Fest!   

Really? Interesting. Didn't know that.

Guess that somewhere along the way, Wheaton turned into Sodom and Gomorrah, just like everywhere else.

[NCF]

The City of Wheaton hasn't been dry since the 1980s, and now even hosts an annual Ale Fest!   

Really? Interesting. Didn't know that.

Guess that somewhere along the way, Wheaton turned into Sodom and Gomorrah, just like everywhere else.

The end of the world is at hand

[blue_jays]

In fact, I'd argue that Coach Swider has to operate at a different and more difficult level than that of most of his coaching colleagues at Wheaton, such as Paul Giuliano (men's soccer), Scott Bradley (track & field), and Mike Schauer (men's basketball). That's because Swider has the burden of having to locate and persuade a much larger group of recruits each year, and those recruits come from a smaller pool of potential student-athletes, because a lot of Christian high schools don't have football programs.

Unless he's legally changed his name recently, pretty sure the soccer coach's name is Mike Giuliano. Unless he's the same Paul Giuliano who plays against Jimmy Born at South Park University.

[Gregory Sager]

In fact, I'd argue that Coach Swider has to operate at a different and more difficult level than that of most of his coaching colleagues at Wheaton, such as Paul Giuliano (men's soccer), Scott Bradley (track & field), and Mike Schauer (men's basketball). That's because Swider has the burden of having to locate and persuade a much larger group of recruits each year, and those recruits come from a smaller pool of potential student-athletes, because a lot of Christian high schools don't have football programs.

Unless he's legally changed his name recently, pretty sure the soccer coach's name is Mike Giuliano. Unless he's the same Paul Giuliano who plays against Jimmy Born at South Park University.

Sorry. Mike Giuliano. I know a Paul Giuliano and I made an inadvertent error, which we human beings are known to do from time to time.

But, hey, it gave you a nice opening to act like a smug jerk, so it wasn't a total loss for everybody, right?

[blue_jays]

In fact, I'd argue that Coach Swider has to operate at a different and more difficult level than that of most of his coaching colleagues at Wheaton, such as Paul Giuliano (men's soccer), Scott Bradley (track & field), and Mike Schauer (men's basketball). That's because Swider has the burden of having to locate and persuade a much larger group of recruits each year, and those recruits come from a smaller pool of potential student-athletes, because a lot of Christian high schools don't have football programs.

Unless he's legally changed his name recently, pretty sure the soccer coach's name is Mike Giuliano. Unless he's the same Paul Giuliano who plays against Jimmy Born at South Park University.

Sorry. Mike Giuliano. I know a Paul Giuliano and I made an inadvertent error, which we human beings are known to do from time to time.

But, hey, it gave you a nice opening to act like a smug jerk, so it wasn't a total loss for everybody, right?

It was meant as a lighthearted joke and not being very serious, like a bizarro Futurama universe where John has the mustache and Mike is clean shaven, but take it as you will I guess...

[TitanPride]

New--

Why do you think Wheaton's roster is always filled with players from around the country?
Not sure what others think but my personal opinion is that, in addition to being academically strong to start with, its Wheaton's religious philosophy that brings in recruits. I'm not sure how many other schools there are of the same religious persuasion around the country, but I'm guessing not a great number. Accordingly, its always been my opinion that WC doesn't really have to do that much recruiting due to the fact I believe many kids actually recruit themselves to Wheaton rather than the usual action of the school going out and recruiting the student-athlete. Look at how many incoming kids have gone to Christian high schools. Its the same with all sports at WC, not just football. Wheaton rarely competes for the same kids with other conference schools except, in some cases, with North Park. Their primary competition for recruits is usually with other Christian colleges across the country rather than with other CCIW schools.

Completely and utterly inaccurate to paint picture that "Wheaton doesn't really have to do that much recruiting..."  You are making some HUGE assumptions without knowing what the coaching staff does to recruit or what criteria is necessary.  To even consider that "kids recruit themselves to Wheaton" is an insult to the diligent, exhaustive efforts by the entire Wheaton staff.

The biggest assumption you are making is that there is a huge number of potential football players who:

• Have achieved academic excellence (top 5-10% in their class, at least a 30 on ACT, etc...) AND
• Have the monetary resources to afford an expensive liberal arts education AND
• Possess the level of athletic ability and football skill to compete at the highest levels in D3 AND
• Do not have aspirations (or unrealistic view of their ability) to compete at higher levels of NCAA AND
• Profess faith as a follower of Jesus Christ and are committed to living in a way that reflects that faith

I agree with most of your post, but I think the highlighted portion is a stretch.  Wheaton reports that 58% of their incoming students are within the top 10% of their graduating class, and the middle 50% of the students score a 26-32 on the ACT.  Don't get me wrong -- this is an impressive academic profile for a college, but it indicates that there is room for Wheaton to bring in student athletes (student musicians, etc.) that fall well below the academic threshold you've listed.  Does Wheaton have the strongest academic profile in the CCIW?  I think that's accurate.  But do all or even most of their football players score a 30 or higher on the ACT.  I doubt it.

I think you can also argue against your premise that Wheaton's students and football players need to have the monetary resources to afford an expensive school.  A school with an endowment of 350 million probably has the ability to provide substantial financial aid for students and families who need/deserve it.  This is backed up by the fact that Wheaton states that their average need-based grant (not including loan) is around $28,000.  If that's the average, I would imagine this means that the school has the resources to provide 40-50k per year for students who need it.


Sources:  http://www.ctcl.org/colleges/wheaton
                http://wheatoncollege.edu/admission/tuition-fees/

[letsplay2]

I think you can also argue against your premise that Wheaton's students and football players need to have the monetary resources to afford an expensive school.  A school with an endowment of 350 million probably has the ability to provide substantial financial aid for students and families who need/deserve it.  This is backed up by the fact that Wheaton states that their average need-based grant (not including loan) is around $28,000.  If that's the average, I would imagine this means that the school has the resources to provide 40-50k per year for students who need it.


Sources:  http://www.ctcl.org/colleges/wheaton
                http://wheatoncollege.edu/admission/tuition-fees/

As an '08 Wheaton football and baseball alum who also happened to spend my freshman year at Carthage, I can tell you this assumption is so far off base and somewhat frustrating to read.  Carthage was able to provide me with more than double the financial aid I was provided at Wheaton.  Without going into detail, from a financial perspective I was much more qualified to receive more financial aid given my family situation by the time I was at Wheaton, but ended up receiving much less and having to take on the burden of heavy student loans.  (God bless my parents who did as much as they could financially to put 3 kids through Wheaton over an 8 year period!)

Sure, Wheaton tends to draw a large population of students from wealthy families and has a large endowment but if that leads you to believe that far fewer Wheaton students have to face the challenge of affordability than other CCIW schools or Christian schools around the nation than, than your opinion is very tainted. 

[AndOne]

I think you can also argue against your premise that Wheaton's students and football players need to have the monetary resources to afford an expensive school.  A school with an endowment of 350 million probably has the ability to provide substantial financial aid for students and families who need/deserve it.  This is backed up by the fact that Wheaton states that their average need-based grant (not including loan) is around $28,000.  If that's the average, I would imagine this means that the school has the resources to provide 40-50k per year for students who need it.


Sources:  http://www.ctcl.org/colleges/wheaton
                http://wheatoncollege.edu/admission/tuition-fees/

As an '08 Wheaton football and baseball alum who also happened to spend my freshman year at Carthage, I can tell you this assumption is so far off base and somewhat frustrating to read.  Carthage was able to provide me with more than double the financial aid I was provided at Wheaton.  Without going into detail, from a financial perspective I was much more qualified to receive more financial aid given my family situation by the time I was at Wheaton, but ended up receiving much less and having to take on the burden of heavy student loans.  (God bless my parents who did as much as they could financially to put 3 kids through Wheaton over an 8 year period!)

Sure, Wheaton tends to draw a large population of students from wealthy families and has a large endowment but if that leads you to believe that far fewer Wheaton students have to face the challenge of affordability than other CCIW schools or Christian schools around the nation than, than your opinion is very tainted.

Lets,

Not to dispute the vast majority of the information or contention(s) contained within your post, but more so to play devil's (I know thats a bad word at Wheaton  ) advocate, might not "ABLE" be the operative word in your post? You say Carthage was able to provide you with more aid than Wheaton did. With both a much larger endowment, and likely a larger recruiting budget given the national scope of their various team rosters, could it have been that Wheaton was able to give you more money, but for some reason chose not to?

Remember, in terms of financial aid, its not uncommon for a school to give less money to a transfer student than to an incoming freshman who will theoretically be on campus for four years. 

Again, I'm not discounting your individual situation, just asking whether you think another explanation might be possible. One thing thats not debatable is the fact that Wheaton has more money than Carthage.

[TitanPride]

I think you can also argue against your premise that Wheaton's students and football players need to have the monetary resources to afford an expensive school.  A school with an endowment of 350 million probably has the ability to provide substantial financial aid for students and families who need/deserve it.  This is backed up by the fact that Wheaton states that their average need-based grant (not including loan) is around $28,000.  If that's the average, I would imagine this means that the school has the resources to provide 40-50k per year for students who need it.


Sources:  http://www.ctcl.org/colleges/wheaton
                http://wheatoncollege.edu/admission/tuition-fees/

As an '08 Wheaton football and baseball alum who also happened to spend my freshman year at Carthage, I can tell you this assumption is so far off base and somewhat frustrating to read.  Carthage was able to provide me with more than double the financial aid I was provided at Wheaton.  Without going into detail, from a financial perspective I was much more qualified to receive more financial aid given my family situation by the time I was at Wheaton, but ended up receiving much less and having to take on the burden of heavy student loans.  (God bless my parents who did as much as they could financially to put 3 kids through Wheaton over an 8 year period!)

Sure, Wheaton tends to draw a large population of students from wealthy families and has a large endowment but if that leads you to believe that far fewer Wheaton students have to face the challenge of affordability than other CCIW schools or Christian schools around the nation than, than your opinion is very tainted.

Obviously I don't know what happened in your personal situation.  On the average though, Carthage is going to discount their tuition at a much higher rate (give out more "merit" scholarship dollars regardless of a student's "need").  Wheaton, in the mold of most highly selective schools, isn't going to give out the same quantity of merit scholarship dollars but does have the ability to use their financial resources to meet a student's financial need more often than other schools in the CCIW.  I think the source I posted speaks to that.  You won't see an average need-based grant of $28,000 at Carthage or any other school in the CCIW.

**This is not to say that all of Wheaton's students and families (or any school with large financial resources) are happy with their financial aid.  Many times, families dispute their "need" which is determined by the FAFSA and other financial aid forms.  However, this is a completely different discussion.

[Langhorst_Ghost]

Wheaton announces newcomers.

http://athletics.wheaton.edu/news/2013/5/14/FB_0514135549.aspx

It always amazes me how they get tons of people from all around the nation and then like 3 people from Wheaton.   

While Wheaton certainly wins the annual award for geographic diversity, Elmhurst's wide-ranging representation is worth noting - 50+ players on the active roster in 2012 hail from outside of the Land of Lincoln (about half the locker room) - with that percentage spiking upwards in 2013.

[TitanPride]

Wheaton announces newcomers.

http://athletics.wheaton.edu/news/2013/5/14/FB_0514135549.aspx

It always amazes me how they get tons of people from all around the nation and then like 3 people from Wheaton.   

While Wheaton certainly wins the annual award for geographic diversity, Elmhurst's wide-ranging representation is worth noting - 50+ players on the active roster in 2012 hail from outside of the Land of Lincoln (about half the locker room) - with that percentage spiking upwards in 2013.

My brother is currently coaching football out in southern California and was talking to a coach from a successful local high school.  My brother played college football in the Midwest, so this coach was telling him about a linebacker they are sending to Elmhurst.  In this coach's words, a D1 caliber talent, but overlooked because of his height.

I haven't looked at the breakdown this year, but generally 99% of IWU's football players are from in-state.  While most of IWU's athletic rosters are Illinois-centric, football seems to have the lowest percentage of out-of-staters each year. 

[Mugsy]

Common misunderstanding:  Bigger endowment != more financial aid for individual student

I've learned over the years that Wheaton's financial aid offering is typically less than other CCIW schools.  I don't know why, but I've heard it repeated by parents who were considering sending their kids to Wheaton.

That said I believe alumni giving has resulted in Wheaton's overall tuition coming in lower than most CCIW schools.  The NCC quarterly alumni magazine publishes the core financial details for each CCIW school (endownment, tuition cost, etc...).  Off the top of my head I can't remember where Wheaton ranked in 2012 in cost of tuition, but I'm confident in was towards the bottom of the list.