FB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[iwu4ever]

As a former IWU player on one of the championship teams, and still want to have a dog in the race. I would like to weigh in: Titan Q, IWU70, Green Jello...you are ALL wrong on this one, stop defending this joke.

I and many of my teammates are sick and tired of our Head Coach being the long-standing, hypocritical, self-centered, ASS of the CCIW for years now. He continues to embarrass us and the program by how he handles these situations. When we were playing...WE were wondering why we were still in games, throwing the ball to score when games were all locked down. Every week his motivation was something personal about "their" coach. It was about Norm vs the other coach.

I would also like to view "his" book on professionalism in the coaching profession. He is the BIGGEST Pot calling the kettle.

I referenced after the North Park Game how I was surprised to see our Starting RB and Starting WR still returning kicks up 45-7 and 45-14 in the 4th Qtr. But didn't say how I was disappointed to see us throwing in the 4th qtr with the same scores.

SCORE IWU 45-North Park 7 (Clock 7:35) ball NP 37: NORM Calls 3 consecutive pass plays, incomplete, incomplete, interception.
SCORE 45-14 (Clock 5:26) Artie Checchin (3rd leading receiver in the CCIW) returns a kick 78 yards to the NP 11: NORM Calls a pass play to the 5, and runs it in on the next play. IWU 52-North Park 14 (Playoff point concerns?!?)

How about Carthage game?
IWU 24 - Carthage 3 (Clock 4:51) left in the 4th
   IWU gets the Ball on the Carthage 29 – Norm Calls PASS for 21 yds, Run for 5 yds (pen -5), PASS for 5 yds, incomplete PASS,   PASS to score a TD (Gallik to Musselman 3 yd TD pass) to go up by 28. 1 Run Play and 4 Pass Plays.

Here was Saturdays game (remarkably similar, except Norm is behind)
NCC 39 – IWU 27 (Clock 2:35) left in the 4th
   NCC get the Ball on their own 48 – Run for 1 yd, Run for 45 yds, run for no gain, pass for 5 yds, rush for 1 yd & TD, to go up by 29.
4 Run Plays and 1 Pass Plays.

Look in the mirror and get out of your glass house if you are going to throw stones.

I desperately want the Titan players to win and advance in the playoffs, but when I look out there at the coaching profession. I would hitch my "professionalism wagon" to Titan John Thorne, not sad sobber Stormin Norman!

[CardinalAlum]

As a former IWU player on one of the championship teams, and still want to have a dog in the race. I would like to weigh in: Titan Q, IWU70, Green Jello...you are ALL wrong on this one, stop defending this joke.

I and many of my teammates are sick and tired of our Head Coach being the long-standing, hypocritical, self-centered, ASS of the CCIW for years now. He continues to embarrass us and the program by how he handles these situations. When we were playing...WE were wondering why we were still in games, throwing the ball to score when games were all locked down. Every week his motivation was something personal about "their" coach. It was about Norm vs the other coach.

I would also like to view "his" book on professionalism in the coaching profession. He is the BIGGEST Pot calling the kettle.

I referenced after the North Park Game how I was surprised to see our Starting RB and Starting WR still returning kicks up 45-7 and 45-14 in the 4th Qtr. But didn't say how I was disappointed to see us throwing in the 4th qtr with the same scores.

SCORE IWU 45-North Park 7 (Clock 7:35) ball NP 37: NORM Calls 3 consecutive pass plays, incomplete, incomplete, interception.
SCORE 45-14 (Clock 5:26) Artie Checchin (3rd leading receiver in the CCIW) returns a kick 78 yards to the NP 11: NORM Calls a pass play to the 5, and runs it in on the next play. IWU 52-North Park 14 (Playoff point concerns?!?)

How about Carthage game?
IWU 24 - Carthage 3 (Clock 4:51) left in the 4th
   IWU gets the Ball on the Carthage 29 – Norm Calls PASS for 21 yds, Run for 5 yds (pen -5), PASS for 5 yds, incomplete PASS,   PASS to score a TD (Gallik to Musselman 3 yd TD pass) to go up by 28. 1 Run Play and 4 Pass Plays.

Here was Saturdays game (remarkably similar, except Norm is behind)
NCC 39 – IWU 27 (Clock 2:35) left in the 4th
   NCC get the Ball on their own 48 – Run for 1 yd, Run for 45 yds, run for no gain, pass for 5 yds, rush for 1 yd & TD, to go up by 29.
4 Run Plays and 1 Pass Plays.

Look in the mirror and get out of your glass house if you are going to throw stones.

I desperately want the Titan players to win and advance in the playoffs, but when I look out there at the coaching profession. I would hitch my "professionalism wagon" to Titan John Thorne, not sad sobber Stormin Norman!

I know it's not easy to criticize your own school and coach.  I did it during the previous coaching era at NCC and it was hard, but facts are facts.   Call a spade what it is.  Great post!

[iwu70]

I have not been defending Coach Eash or weighing in on his post-game comments.  I didn't see them or hear them.  I have criticized his offensive formats and play-calling for a long time.  So let me off on that one, iwu4ever.  My only comment was on the pre-game dust-up and who went to the field as a team first.  From where I was standing right near the SW corner of the field, it was clearly the NC squad that moved that way first (you can't see them in the video clip at that stage), then the IWU Team came onto the field.  In my 47 years of watching IWU football, I've never seen something like that with teams moving out of their bench areas to the center of the field prior to a game.  Perhaps it's happened, but I've never seen it.  To me, it was not a big deal either way and seemed to match the intensity, importance and testosterone-laden atmosphere of an important, championship game.  I rather thought it was silly and funny . . . then came the worry of the refs, that things might well get out of hand, a flag flew and the announcement came, but then the refs really didn't follow up on their claim to eject anyone else who was flagged again with "unsportsmanlike."  All seems a silly, even childish dust up to me. 

Clearly, NCC was the better team on the day, especially in the 4th Q.  My hat is off to them and they played a great game, with superior athletes at some positions, and beat convincingly a very good Titan team.  They have the premier football program in the CCIW and have sustained it for 8 years now.  IWU is closer to them this year, but came up short again.  Perhaps WC will have a crack at them now, but I think NCC goes 10-0 this season.  If IWU re-groups, re-commits and wins out, they will get a tourney berth too.  I think they will. 

IWU70

[Gregory Sager]

I have not been defending Coach Eash or weighing in on his post-game comments.  I didn't see them or hear them.

Why not? The audio of the interview was linked to in this room, along with a transcript from kiko of the inflammatory comments by Norm Eash. Heck, even I listened to the audio link, and I really don't give a fig about that game. (I'm just stirring up trouble here, as usual. )

I have criticized his offensive formats and play-calling for a long time.  So let me off on that one, iwu4ever.  My only comment was on the pre-game dust-up and who went to the field as a team first.  From where I was standing right near the SW corner of the field, it was clearly the NC squad that moved that way first (you can't see them in the video clip at that stage), then the IWU Team came onto the field.  In my 47 years of watching IWU football, I've never seen something like that with teams moving out of their bench areas to the center of the field prior to a game.  Perhaps it's happened, but I've never seen it.  To me, it was not a big deal either way and seemed to match the intensity, importance and testosterone-laden atmosphere of an important, championship game.  I rather thought it was silly and funny . . . then came the worry of the refs, that things might well get out of hand, a flag flew and the announcement came, but then the refs really didn't follow up on their claim to eject anyone else who was flagged again with "unsportsmanlike."

This is twice now that you've made that accusation. It is not borne out by the play-by-play on the Wesleyan website. It says that Stanek was assessed a personal foul in the first quarter, on NCC's second touchdown drive. It does not say that it was an unsportsmanlike-conduct call, as the pregame infractions are labeled on the PBP. Of course, that's not incontrovertible evidence, since PBPs are sometimes in error. (For instance, the Illinois Wesleyan stat crew credited North Park's Tyler Krebs (#2) with an interception in the NPU @ IWU game. Krebs has been a rather conspicuous presence on offense in the CCIW for four years now, and he has yet to play a down of defense in his career. That pass was picked off by Dominic Schiavo (#18), but the error was never corrected.)

But the journalist who interviewed Norm Eash pointed out that the flag on Stanek was not called an unsportsmanlike-conduct penalty on the field. From kiko's transcript:

Norm: And then the other thing is, the official gave everybody a warning, said the next unsportsmanlike, (he) gave everybody a warning, and so the next one, the player is going to get ejected.  And right off the bat, their quarterback is taunting our player.  And I just don't think the officials followed through on what they said they were going to do.  And I think that's disappointing because that's a poor example in front of young men."

(Interviewer: "As I recall, it was a penalty, but it wasn't an unsportsmanlike, which as you said would have been an ejection automatically.")

Norm: "But taunting is taunting, okay?  And to me, that's unsportsmanlike.  So follow through on your rule, and I think the official agreed with me.  That's a tough call to make when that's a quarterback, but you know what?  Make an example.  Let everybody know, the game was going to get out of hand if he didn't."

The NCAA has two different penalties covered by this sort of thing, one a dead-ball penalty and the other a live-ball penalty. My guess is that Stanek's penalty was a live-ball penalty, distinguishing it from the pregame penalty.

All seems a silly, even childish dust up to me.

Then why are you still going on about it? Everybody else has moved on from the whole logo-brawl thing.

As a former IWU player on one of the championship teams, and still want to have a dog in the race. I would like to weigh in: Titan Q, IWU70, Green Jello...you are ALL wrong on this one, stop defending this joke.

I and many of my teammates are sick and tired of our Head Coach being the long-standing, hypocritical, self-centered, ASS of the CCIW for years now. He continues to embarrass us and the program by how he handles these situations. When we were playing...WE were wondering why we were still in games, throwing the ball to score when games were all locked down. Every week his motivation was something personal about "their" coach. It was about Norm vs the other coach.

I would also like to view "his" book on professionalism in the coaching profession. He is the BIGGEST Pot calling the kettle.

I referenced after the North Park Game how I was surprised to see our Starting RB and Starting WR still returning kicks up 45-7 and 45-14 in the 4th Qtr. But didn't say how I was disappointed to see us throwing in the 4th qtr with the same scores.

SCORE IWU 45-North Park 7 (Clock 7:35) ball NP 37: NORM Calls 3 consecutive pass plays, incomplete, incomplete, interception.
SCORE 45-14 (Clock 5:26) Artie Checchin (3rd leading receiver in the CCIW) returns a kick 78 yards to the NP 11: NORM Calls a pass play to the 5, and runs it in on the next play. IWU 52-North Park 14 (Playoff point concerns?!?)

Well, as I said earlier tonight, the topic of playoff point concerns really isn't germane where NPU (or any of the other lower five teams in the league) are concerned. But I have to make allowance for the possibility that you're just being sarcastic here.

I did hear grumbling from the NPU camp about those two late Titans drives you mentioned that included pass plays when the game had already been well put away for quite awhile. It didn't really bother me that much. I guess that I just don't get worked up about these things as much as other people do. I'm much more focused upon my own team's shortcomings in a situation like that than I am about the other team's sportsmanship with regard to play selection. Quite frankly, NPU had much more important things to worry about in the wake of that game than whether or not the opposing coach was needlessly pouring it on.

As for Jones and Checchin returning kicks, I figured that there could be any number of reasons why the starters would be running back KRs, whether it be unit continuity or practice (the Titans hadn't been scored on much to that point in the season, after all, which meant that they hadn't returned a lot of kickoffs). If anything, I thought it was more a matter of Norm Eash needlessly risking injuries to his key players in an already-won game than of his trying to run up the score.

I'm much more interested in the fact that a former Titans football player is calling out Norm Eash for being unsportsmanlike than I am in the topic itself.

[iwu4ever]

As a former IWU player on one of the championship teams, and still want to have a dog in the race. I would like to weigh in: Titan Q, IWU70, Green Jello...you are ALL wrong on this one, stop defending this joke.

I and many of my teammates are sick and tired of our Head Coach being the long-standing, hypocritical, self-centered, ASS of the CCIW for years now. He continues to embarrass us and the program by how he handles these situations. When we were playing...WE were wondering why we were still in games, throwing the ball to score when games were all locked down. Every week his motivation was something personal about "their" coach. It was about Norm vs the other coach.

I would also like to view "his" book on professionalism in the coaching profession. He is the BIGGEST Pot calling the kettle.

I referenced after the North Park Game how I was surprised to see our Starting RB and Starting WR still returning kicks up 45-7 and 45-14 in the 4th Qtr. But didn't say how I was disappointed to see us throwing in the 4th qtr with the same scores.

SCORE IWU 45-North Park 7 (Clock 7:35) ball NP 37: NORM Calls 3 consecutive pass plays, incomplete, incomplete, interception.
SCORE 45-14 (Clock 5:26) Artie Checchin (3rd leading receiver in the CCIW) returns a kick 78 yards to the NP 11: NORM Calls a pass play to the 5, and runs it in on the next play. IWU 52-North Park 14 (Playoff point concerns?!?)

How about Carthage game?
IWU 24 - Carthage 3 (Clock 4:51) left in the 4th
   IWU gets the Ball on the Carthage 29 – Norm Calls PASS for 21 yds, Run for 5 yds (pen -5), PASS for 5 yds, incomplete PASS,   PASS to score a TD (Gallik to Musselman 3 yd TD pass) to go up by 28. 1 Run Play and 4 Pass Plays.

Here was Saturdays game (remarkably similar, except Norm is behind)
NCC 39 – IWU 27 (Clock 2:35) left in the 4th
   NCC get the Ball on their own 48 – Run for 1 yd, Run for 45 yds, run for no gain, pass for 5 yds, rush for 1 yd & TD, to go up by 29.
4 Run Plays and 1 Pass Plays.

Look in the mirror and get out of your glass house if you are going to throw stones.

I desperately want the Titan players to win and advance in the playoffs, but when I look out there at the coaching profession. I would hitch my "professionalism wagon" to Titan John Thorne, not sad sobber Stormin Norman!

oops sorry the NCC score before the final score should have read:
NCC 39- IWU 17

[USee]

I watched the video of the coin toss tussle and it seemed pretty inocuous to me. I would point out that if Coach Eash is right and their is a rule about the visitors going down their own sideline while the home team gets the middle of the field, then NCC was clearly wrong. I have no idea if that is a rule.

As far as the game this weekend I would point out 2 things:

1. Wheaton was in the same position a year ago
2. There is only 1 CCIW team against which John Thorne has a losing record.

[USee]

As far as the CCIW tie breaker goes, the question was asked (by Mr. Ypsi I believe) what happens if there is an exact 20 pt spread between Wheaton and NCC in the 3 way tie breaker scenario. From the CCIW site on the tie breaker here is the exact wording:

1. Head-to-head competition
2. Best record by tied teams against the next best team or the next best tied teams in conference standings
3. Point differential between tied teams in conference
4. The fewest defensive yards given up versus tied teams in conference
5. Random drawing by CCIW commissioner.

[sigma one]

Thanks, Kovo, for helping me understand about the points' rule.  I'm just not versed in the conference rules.  And they were not mentioned in the early posts about the game.   Reading to this point after my comments about having no dog in the hunt, shows me the strong feelings people have about Coach Eash's behavior over the years.  For the record, I did say that "from the outside" his anger seems justified.  I am now a bit more on the "inside" in my understanding.
     It seems there is the right thing to do late in the game (the thing most coaches would do if not for the points' rule) and what the CCIW rules encourage a team to do--run up the points when there is any about being on top of the tiebreaker.  Don't the coaches (who in most conferences have the the ability as a group to ask for a change in the rules),  the school presidents (who in most conferences oversee all aspects of the conference), and the conference office see what this leads to?  Sure they do, so why is the rule still in place?

[matblake]

As far as the game this weekend I would point out 2 things:

1. Wheaton was in the same position a year ago

If you are talking purely in a CCIW sense, yes.  However, a major difference is that Wheaton does not have that non-conference loss they did last year.  If Wheaton beats SoDup, they'll have just the one loss.  Not sure if that will be good enough for a Pool C, if they don't get the Pool A, with the increased number of Pool B's this year.  We'll have to see the regional rankings to get an idea. 

2. There is only 1 CCIW team against which John Thorne has a losing record.

Indeed!

[matblake]

Kam Kniss' U does seem to be clicking on all cylinders right now.  I love this rivalry.  While I do miss the days of automatically knowing the Bell would be retained by Wheaton, it does seem to mean more when there is a bit of a question.  Plus, last year was sweet, even if the point total tiebreaker could have been obtained.

[Kovo]

Thanks, Kovo, for helping me understand about the points' rule.  I'm just not versed in the conference rules.  And they were not mentioned in the early posts about the game.   Reading to this point after my comments about having no dog in the hunt, shows me the strong feelings people have about Coach Eash's behavior over the years.  For the record, I did say that "from the outside" his anger seems justified.  I am now a bit more on the "inside" in my understanding.
     It seems there is the right thing to do late in the game (the thing most coaches would do if not for the points' rule) and what the CCIW rules encourage a team to do--run up the points when there is any about being on top of the tiebreaker.  Don't the coaches (who in most conferences have the the ability as a group to ask for a change in the rules),  the school presidents (who in most conferences oversee all aspects of the conference), and the conference office see what this leads to?  Sure they do, so why is the rule still in place?

All great questions S. O.  And, in an earlier post I mentioned that I don't like the rule---but what can we do for this year?  If Wheaton is up by 16 with 10 seconds left, I suspect that they will be throwing into the end zone, or else they are probably home from the playoffs since NC will be the AQ, and the NCAA will have to decide between them or an IWU team that beat them by 11 points---both of whom at 9-1 (all of this presumes the three win out).

So would that be bad sportsmanship?  I don't think so.  Would I like it?  Not so much.  But, the system is the system, and I'm STILL waiting for the CCIW to call me for input on how to improve it.  Maybe I should email the AD, since you are correct.  The league simply enforces the rules that the schools have agreed to.

[thunder38]

As far as the CCIW tie breaker goes, the question was asked (by Mr. Ypsi I believe) what happens if there is an exact 20 pt spread between Wheaton and NCC in the 3 way tie breaker scenario. From the CCIW site on the tie breaker here is the exact wording:

1. Head-to-head competition
2. Best record by tied teams against the next best team or the next best tied teams in conference standings
3. Point differential between tied teams in conference
4. The fewest defensive yards given up versus tied teams in conference
5. Random drawing by CCIW commissioner.

If Wheaton ends up +20, it would come down to #4
   -IWU was +145 yards vs. Wheaton and -244 yards vs. North Central leaving them at -99 total.

Wheaton being -145 would have to be +195 yards against North Central to win the tiebreaker

[Kovo]

As far as the CCIW tie breaker goes, the question was asked (by Mr. Ypsi I believe) what happens if there is an exact 20 pt spread between Wheaton and NCC in the 3 way tie breaker scenario. From the CCIW site on the tie breaker here is the exact wording:

1. Head-to-head competition
2. Best record by tied teams against the next best team or the next best tied teams in conference standings
3. Point differential between tied teams in conference
4. The fewest defensive yards given up versus tied teams in conference
5. Random drawing by CCIW commissioner.

If Wheaton ends up +20, it would come down to #4
   -IWU was +145 yards vs. Wheaton and -244 yards vs. North Central leaving them at -99 total.

Wheaton being -145 would have to be +195 yards against North Central to win the tiebreaker

The point being that it is just as important to keep piling up yards as well as points.    And that is why I used up by 16 points and throwing into the end zone in my example since that is the maximum that Wheaton would need a TD rather than a FG to try and grab the AQ.

[iwu70]

Greg, you can keep your bait.  I just commented on what I saw, what I've felt for some time about Norm's football schemes and play calling.  I truly don't follow this chat line 24/7 so sometimes my comments come in a bit behind the normal flow and curve.  So be it.  Even now, I haven't listened to all the post-game chatter by coaches or others.  You'all can dissect and comment on the post-game coaches comments and supposed feelings between Thorne and Eash, between the players, between the programs over time.  I know little of all that -- so I'll leave it to you experts.  I just go and enjoy the games, support my Titans, and comment on what I see there.  All the stuff that is whirling around it all -- well, I just think it's all a bit silly.  NCC played a great game, esp. the 4th Q and my Titans need to focus on winning out and letting the post-season berths fall where they fall.  If IWU wins two more games at Augie and home vs. EC, I think they get to play further. 

WC vs. NCC should be a great game.   As I've said before, from what I've seen of the two, I think NCC wins, perhaps handily.  If so, WC will not get to the post-season.

Nuff said, and happy Monday morning to you all, dear CCIW fans and chatsters.

IWU70

[iwu70]

Can someone clarify -- is not "taunting" considered an unsportsmanlike penalty? 

IWU70