FB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[kiko]

By the way, I wonder if the Cardinals can pick up the AQ in both the CCIW and the WIAC if they have perfect records in both conferences.   

I have a feeling that UWW might take issue with that.

Big time. UWW remembers in excruciating detail the last time that UWW and NCC were in the same bracket.

Stagg, you may have unleashed purple fury upon yourself. It wouldn't surprise me to see UWW and NCC in the same bracket again, given that the North teams had such a disastrous Saturday and the West has three undefeated,top teams. With three common opponents, the argument  to separate NCC and UWW will be fierce.

My comment was all in good fun Gator.  I fully expect to see a UWW, UWO/UWP, or Bethel in the North bracket (assuming Linfield, Bethel, UWW, NCC, and the Mount all win out).  If Mount loses to JC (don't jump on me; I said IF), perhaps JC goes East as a #1 and Mount stays North with NCC.  Given what we saw last year with NCC being put in the West bracket and flying twice, the NCAA will not be adverse to having North region teams playing at UWO or Bethel in Round 2/3.  All said, the North will have at least one west bracket team and probably the loser of the Mount/JC game. 

My personal guess right now is that NCC gets #1 if it wins out; an undefeated West bracket team (Bethel) gets #2, and the Mount/JC loser and Wittenberg get #3/#4.  IWU gets #5, Albion gets #6, Franklin gets #7, and Wisconsin Concordia gets #8.  This is just to get the conversation started for the week on this front.

I think the Cardinals should expect at least one of those undefeated West Region teams to land in their bracket.  (Or, that the Cardinals should expect to land in a bracket headed by one of those undefeated West Region teams.)  The Wheaton broadcasters yesterday seemed to anoint the Cards as the #1 seed in the North -- I presume they were moving that Johnny-come-lately upstart named Mount Union over to the East -- but I kept thinking "Linfield, Bethel, Whitewater... they won't all stay West".   Two thoughts:

- We should not be quick to translate the d3football poll results to seedings.  At present, Whitewater, Bethel, and Linfield are 1-2-3 in that order in the West, which is different from the poll results from this site.  Assuming that holds, Whitewater may become less likely to get moved.

- We should also remember the annual reticence  to put teams on airplanes.  There's one involved with Linfield -- and/or PLU if they grab a Pool C bid -- irrespective of where they land in the draw.  Whitewater is located where they can likely be placed in a West or North-heavy bracket without additional flights occuring.  Bethel may be a bit more problematic for the committee - they are 430-some-odd miles from Naperville, and 450-ish from Bloomington.  That makes a bracket which places Bethel with a CCIW team workable, but it really can't include a ton of more Easterly teams without risking additional flights.  And, as the #2 in the West and a rich MIAC heritage in the tournament, the committee could easily choose to build a bracket around them as a higher seed than the Cardinals.

We've seen in the past where the location of Pool C teams has a massive influence on the way the bracket is constructed -- it will be interesting to see the influence those schools have on the draw this year.

[NCF]

I've taken a first crack at regional rankings for North Region due out this week (SECOND REGIONAL RANKING).  I have also included the name of other schools in the hunt.  I have done this only to get the conversation started. 

1.  Mt. Union (9-0) OAC (John Carroll)
2.  North Central (9-0) CCIW (Augustana)
3.  John Carroll (9-0) OAC (Mt. Union)
4.  Wittenberg (8-1) NCAC (Allegheny)
5.  Illinois Wesleyan (8-1) CCIW (Elmhurst)
6.  Albion (7-2) MIAA (Hope)
7.  Franklin (6-3) HCAC (Hanover)
8.  Concordia, WI (7-2) NACC (Wisconsin Lutheran)

Wabash (8-1) NCAC (DePauw) - Bubble.  Most likely on the outside looking in.
Hope (7-2) MIAA (Albion) - Must defeat Albion

Looks pretty good. The North will be stacked assuming Mount wins and goes East.There will be  four-five teams capable of winning the regional title.

[Stagg Again!!]

I think the Cardinals should expect at least one of those undefeated West Region teams to land in their bracket.  (Or, that the Cardinals should expect to land in a bracket headed by one of those undefeated West Region teams.)  The Wheaton broadcasters yesterday seemed to anoint the Cards as the #1 seed in the North -- I presume they were moving that Johnny-come-lately upstart named Mount Union over to the East -- but I kept thinking "Linfield, Bethel, Whitewater... they won't all stay West".   Two thoughts:

- We should not be quick to translate the d3football poll results to seedings.  At present, Whitewater, Bethel, and Linfield are 1-2-3 in that order in the West, which is different from the poll results from this site.  Assuming that holds, Whitewater may become less likely to get moved.

- We should also remember the annual reticence  to put teams on airplanes.  There's one involved with Linfield -- and/or PLU if they grab a Pool C bid -- irrespective of where they land in the draw.  Whitewater is located where they can likely be placed in a West or North-heavy bracket without additional flights occuring.  Bethel may be a bit more problematic for the committee - they are 430-some-odd miles from Naperville, and 450-ish from Bloomington.  That makes a bracket which places Bethel with a CCIW team workable, but it really can't include a ton of more Easterly teams without risking additional flights.  And, as the #2 in the West and a rich MIAC heritage in the tournament, the committee could easily choose to build a bracket around them as a higher seed than the Cardinals.

We've seen in the past where the location of Pool C teams has a massive influence on the way the bracket is constructed -- it will be interesting to see the influence those schools have on the draw this year.

Kiko, you are spot on.  I assume right now that UWW will get the #1 in the West.  At this point, I can not see North Central moving West with UWW and Linfield already anchoring that bracket.  I could see UWW or Bethel coming North as a #1 or #2 seed (leaving UWO/Bethel, Linfield, and UWO/UWP West).  On a separate note, I could see IWU going West, but haven't thought through where they may be seeded... I'll leave that to Ypsi or IWU.

[321GO]

Awesome job by North Central.  Enjoy the one year rental of the Bell!

Kudos to the Cardinals.  They controlled the second half.  Good luck in the playoffs.

Wheaton again could not get off the field on 3rd and Long situations, especially in the second half.  Stanek is as advertised.  I wouldn't be surprised if he got his 4th player of the week. 

Wheaton just didn't have the horses.  North Central controlled the game. 

Was annoyed at the last touchdown because it made iwu70 prediction correct.     I'm sure the Green Fans are relieved.

Wondering if you can still consider Wheaton as part of the national picture year after year.  They haven't been to the playoffs since 2010.

IMHO, Wheaton is where they are because of career ending injuries to key players and a mess in trying to execute. Take away NCC #1s top 4 WR and RB and see if Stanek has the same year? I doubt it.  The Wheaton offense struggled to keep things organized. Coaching was questioned repeatedly, and bottom line is players need to learn how to do their job before they very show up for Spring ball. Off season is where strength and skills are made. The skill positions need to get this in engrained. Season injuries, poor execution, and discipline issues (penalties), caused each down to be one where you never knew if they were going to go forward or backward. BTW, comparing Roberts to Stanek in anyway is for fools. He showed up, played, never took a play off, and left it on the field every day. Hopefully his final college game will be one where let him finish on a high note.

[CardinalAlum]

Awesome job by North Central.  Enjoy the one year rental of the Bell!

Kudos to the Cardinals.  They controlled the second half.  Good luck in the playoffs.

Wheaton again could not get off the field on 3rd and Long situations, especially in the second half.  Stanek is as advertised.  I wouldn't be surprised if he got his 4th player of the week. 

Wheaton just didn't have the horses.  North Central controlled the game. 

Was annoyed at the last touchdown because it made iwu70 prediction correct.     I'm sure the Green Fans are relieved.

Wondering if you can still consider Wheaton as part of the national picture year after year.  They haven't been to the playoffs since 2010.

IMHO, Wheaton is where they are because of career ending injuries to key players and a mess in trying to execute. Take away NCC #1s top 4 WR and RB and see if Stanek has the same year? I doubt it.  The Wheaton offense struggled to keep things organized. Coaching was questioned repeatedly, and bottom line is players need to learn how to do their job before they very show up for Spring ball. Off season is where strength and skills are made. The skill positions need to get this in engrained. Season injuries, poor execution, and discipline issues (penalties), caused each down to be one where you never knew if they were going to go forward or backward. BTW, comparing Roberts to Stanek in anyway is for fools. He showed up, played, never took a play off, and left it on the field every day. Hopefully his final college game will be one where let him finish on a high note.

Injuries happen to every program.  The quality depth you have in your program is what carries you through the season.   NCC has had plenty of injuries as well.  Backups have stepped up as you would expect in a quality program.   I'm not quite sure what you're referring to in Stanek and Roberts.  They're both great players.  Stanek has had an amazing year and deservedly will be the OPOY. 

[AndOne]

Awesome job by North Central.  Enjoy the one year rental of the Bell!

Kudos to the Cardinals.  They controlled the second half.  Good luck in the playoffs.

Wheaton again could not get off the field on 3rd and Long situations, especially in the second half.  Stanek is as advertised.  I wouldn't be surprised if he got his 4th player of the week. 

Wheaton just didn't have the horses.  North Central controlled the game. 

Was annoyed at the last touchdown because it made iwu70 prediction correct.     I'm sure the Green Fans are relieved.

Wondering if you can still consider Wheaton as part of the national picture year after year.  They haven't been to the playoffs since 2010.

IMHO, Wheaton is where they are because of career ending injuries to key players and a mess in trying to execute. Take away NCC #1s top 4 WR and RB and see if Stanek has the same year? I doubt it.  The Wheaton offense struggled to keep things organized. Coaching was questioned repeatedly, and bottom line is players need to learn how to do their job before they very show up for Spring ball. Off season is where strength and skills are made. The skill positions need to get this in engrained. Season injuries, poor execution, and discipline issues (penalties), caused each down to be one where you never knew if they were going to go forward or backward. BTW, comparing Roberts to Stanek in anyway is for fools. He showed up, played, never took a play off, and left it on the field every day. Hopefully his final college game will be one where let him finish on a high note.

1. Don't dump that load of crap in here 321.
2. Sounds like a bundle of excuses to me.
3. Ever heard of "next man up?" Wheaton's recruiting base is basically the entire USA. Just check the roster if you doubt it. With the ability to draw players from the entire country, you would think they could have adequate replacements available. Yes?
4. Top FOUR WRs out? FOUR? Really? North Central WR Chad O'Kane was on crutches as late as Thursday. Yet, there he was Saturday hauling in 2 TD passes. How is this possible?
5. Top RB out? Well, one Mr. Jesse Geary had one fine game yesterday with 132 yards rushing. How many more do you think your missing all star RB would have had in his place?
6. You wanna bitch about injuries? Bet its a surprise to you that both the offensive and defensive lines for North Central have been hobbled by injuries all year. In particular, I'm pretty sure I read that what was expected to be the starting O line for the Cardinals this season hasn't been together for more than a couple of games all season.
7. The offense struggled to keep things organized? Players need to learn how to do their jobs? You never knew if they were going forward or backward? Coaching was questioned repeatedly?? My reply to those questions is another question---What the heck is the coaching staff doing? Thats your real question. Whats the answer?
8. You say Jordan Roberts showed up, played, never took a day off, and left it on the field everyday. Isn't that what he is supposed to do?? The thing is nobody has questioned his resolve so why bring this stuff up? And is your doing so an attempt to build Roberts up or tear Spencer Stanek down? Roberts record bespeaks a great player who doesn't need any propping up, and Stanek certainly doesn't deserve anything but your respect after putting together one of the finest performances in the country this year. Go fish! 

[thunder38]

Awesome job by North Central.  Enjoy the one year rental of the Bell!

Kudos to the Cardinals.  They controlled the second half.  Good luck in the playoffs.

Wheaton again could not get off the field on 3rd and Long situations, especially in the second half.  Stanek is as advertised.  I wouldn't be surprised if he got his 4th player of the week. 

Wheaton just didn't have the horses.  North Central controlled the game. 

Was annoyed at the last touchdown because it made iwu70 prediction correct.     I'm sure the Green Fans are relieved.

Wondering if you can still consider Wheaton as part of the national picture year after year.  They haven't been to the playoffs since 2010.

IMHO, Wheaton is where they are because of career ending injuries to key players and a mess in trying to execute. Take away NCC #1s top 4 WR and RB and see if Stanek has the same year? I doubt it.  The Wheaton offense struggled to keep things organized. Coaching was questioned repeatedly, and bottom line is players need to learn how to do their job before they very show up for Spring ball. Off season is where strength and skills are made. The skill positions need to get this in engrained. Season injuries, poor execution, and discipline issues (penalties), caused each down to be one where you never knew if they were going to go forward or backward. BTW, comparing Roberts to Stanek in anyway is for fools. He showed up, played, never took a play off, and left it on the field every day. Hopefully his final college game will be one where let him finish on a high note.

CA is right...every program has injuries, even if they're not to the same extent as losing your top four WRs. And Wheaton did get Houck back yesterday so there was a little relief. Last years wide receiver group was exceptional for Wheaton because you had two guys who were matchup nightmares with Morgan Cook and Hiben. Anytime you lose a talent like Mark Hiben you're going to see a drop off. What this season exposed is that Wheaton had a lack of WR depth all along that got masked with the talent at the top. Eventually that caught up with them as has been seen this year. Using those injuries as any kind of excuse is a losers mentality. Good teams find a way to overcome those injuries and sometimes you get beat by teams with more talent (IWU and NCC).

To address your point on coaching,I couldn't disagree more. A terrific gameplan is the biggest reason Wheaton was as close as they were yesterday. Wheaton had a great offensive gameplan to run right at Slezak and limit his ability to pursue laterally where he is at his best. And their execution allowed Wheaton to have the ball for over 20 minutes in the first half. On the other side Wheaton did a pretty good job limiting and slowing down the NCC juggernaut.

You're right that it's unfair to compare Jordan and Stanek because they're two different types of QBs. Jordan is a playmaker that has great field vision and can extend and make plays with his feet. Stanek is a mobile pocket passer who has great presnap reads and gets the ball out quickly, accurately and to the right guy. Stanek is having a historic year much like Jordan had last year. Both terrific talents at the D3 level but in different ways. That's why they shouldn't be compared, not because there is some sort of cliff-diving talent gap.

[thunder38]

Also I think matblake's point on questioning wheaton's national picture presence is a valid one. Wheaton will miss the playoffs for the third straight year this year and they're not winning the talent gap against IWU or North Central. It's hard to make an argument any other way for Wheaton right now. Simply being ranked does not put you on the national radar.

[kiko]

YMMV, but my benchmark for whether a program is no longer at a particular level is when nobody on the roster has experienced the prior benchmark.  Three years without 'x', whatever it may be, means that the seniors in year four don't have that experience.

This could be, for some programs, that the seniors have never experienced a sub-.500 season.  Or, to use Augustana as an example, when you look up in 2010 and realize, after 3-4, 5-2, and 4-3 conference campaigns, that they no longer belong in the conversation when speaking of perennial powers.

[shepherd]

Awesome job by North Central.  Enjoy the one year rental of the Bell!

Kudos to the Cardinals.  They controlled the second half.  Good luck in the playoffs.

Wheaton again could not get off the field on 3rd and Long situations, especially in the second half.  Stanek is as advertised.  I wouldn't be surprised if he got his 4th player of the week. 

Wheaton just didn't have the horses.  North Central controlled the game. 

Was annoyed at the last touchdown because it made iwu70 prediction correct.     I'm sure the Green Fans are relieved.

Wondering if you can still consider Wheaton as part of the national picture year after year.  They haven't been to the playoffs since 2010.

IMHO, Wheaton is where they are because of career ending injuries to key players and a mess in trying to execute. Take away NCC #1s top 4 WR and RB and see if Stanek has the same year? I doubt it.  The Wheaton offense struggled to keep things organized. Coaching was questioned repeatedly, and bottom line is players need to learn how to do their job before they very show up for Spring ball. Off season is where strength and skills are made. The skill positions need to get this in engrained. Season injuries, poor execution, and discipline issues (penalties), caused each down to be one where you never knew if they were going to go forward or backward. BTW, comparing Roberts to Stanek in anyway is for fools. He showed up, played, never took a play off, and left it on the field every day. Hopefully his final college game will be one where let him finish on a high note.

1. Don't dump that load of crap in here 321.
2. Sounds like a bundle of excuses to me.
3. Ever heard of "next man up?" Wheaton's recruiting base is basically the entire USA. Just check the roster if you doubt it. With the ability to draw players from the entire country, you would think they could have adequate replacements available. Yes?
4. Top FOUR WRs out? FOUR? Really? North Central WR Chad O'Kane was on crutches as late as Thursday. Yet, there he was Saturday hauling in 2 TD passes. How is this possible?
5. Top RB out? Well, one Mr. Jesse Geary had one fine game yesterday with 132 yards rushing. How many more do you think your missing all star RB would have had in his place?
6. You wanna bitch about injuries? Bet its a surprise to you that both the offensive and defensive lines for North Central have been hobbled by injuries all year. In particular, I'm pretty sure I read that what was expected to be the starting O line for the Cardinals this season hasn't been together for more than a couple of games all season.
7. The offense struggled to keep things organized? Players need to learn how to do their jobs? You never knew if they were going forward or backward? Coaching was questioned repeatedly?? My reply to those questions is another question---What the heck is the coaching staff doing? Thats your real question. Whats the answer?
8. You say Jordan Roberts showed up, played, never took a day off, and left it on the field everyday. Isn't that what he is supposed to do?? The thing is nobody has questioned his resolve so why bring this stuff up? And is your doing so an attempt to build Roberts up or tear Spencer Stanek down? Roberts record bespeaks a great player who doesn't need any propping up, and Stanek certainly doesn't deserve anything but your respect after putting together one of the finest performances in the country this year. Go fish! 

Why dont some of you guys actually try enjoying the playoffs instead of the uptight crap every year.
The more righteous than though act when your team is in the playoffs is getting old.   You ruin the board with that junk.  Try being courteous for a change. Normally everybody is really pleasant but come playoff and your team is in just watch out.
BTW Stop scaring off potential posters many here have zero tolerance for new posters.
Thank you
Go Thunder
BTW my previous post was a joke but some are so uptight they cant tell unless you use emoticons.

[CardinalAlum]

Awesome job by North Central.  Enjoy the one year rental of the Bell!

Kudos to the Cardinals.  They controlled the second half.  Good luck in the playoffs.

Wheaton again could not get off the field on 3rd and Long situations, especially in the second half.  Stanek is as advertised.  I wouldn't be surprised if he got his 4th player of the week. 

Wheaton just didn't have the horses.  North Central controlled the game. 

Was annoyed at the last touchdown because it made iwu70 prediction correct.     I'm sure the Green Fans are relieved.

Wondering if you can still consider Wheaton as part of the national picture year after year.  They haven't been to the playoffs since 2010.

IMHO, Wheaton is where they are because of career ending injuries to key players and a mess in trying to execute. Take away NCC #1s top 4 WR and RB and see if Stanek has the same year? I doubt it.  The Wheaton offense struggled to keep things organized. Coaching was questioned repeatedly, and bottom line is players need to learn how to do their job before they very show up for Spring ball. Off season is where strength and skills are made. The skill positions need to get this in engrained. Season injuries, poor execution, and discipline issues (penalties), caused each down to be one where you never knew if they were going to go forward or backward. BTW, comparing Roberts to Stanek in anyway is for fools. He showed up, played, never took a play off, and left it on the field every day. Hopefully his final college game will be one where let him finish on a high note.

1. Don't dump that load of crap in here 321.
2. Sounds like a bundle of excuses to me.
3. Ever heard of "next man up?" Wheaton's recruiting base is basically the entire USA. Just check the roster if you doubt it. With the ability to draw players from the entire country, you would think they could have adequate replacements available. Yes?
4. Top FOUR WRs out? FOUR? Really? North Central WR Chad O'Kane was on crutches as late as Thursday. Yet, there he was Saturday hauling in 2 TD passes. How is this possible?
5. Top RB out? Well, one Mr. Jesse Geary had one fine game yesterday with 132 yards rushing. How many more do you think your missing all star RB would have had in his place?
6. You wanna bitch about injuries? Bet its a surprise to you that both the offensive and defensive lines for North Central have been hobbled by injuries all year. In particular, I'm pretty sure I read that what was expected to be the starting O line for the Cardinals this season hasn't been together for more than a couple of games all season.
7. The offense struggled to keep things organized? Players need to learn how to do their jobs? You never knew if they were going forward or backward? Coaching was questioned repeatedly?? My reply to those questions is another question---What the heck is the coaching staff doing? Thats your real question. Whats the answer?
8. You say Jordan Roberts showed up, played, never took a day off, and left it on the field everyday. Isn't that what he is supposed to do?? The thing is nobody has questioned his resolve so why bring this stuff up? And is your doing so an attempt to build Roberts up or tear Spencer Stanek down? Roberts record bespeaks a great player who doesn't need any propping up, and Stanek certainly doesn't deserve anything but your respect after putting together one of the finest performances in the country this year. Go fish! 

Why dont some of you guys actually try enjoying the playoffs instead of the uptight crap every year.
The more righteous than though act when your team is in the playoffs is getting old.   You ruin the board with that junk.  Try being courteous for a change. Normally everybody is really pleasant but come playoff and your team is in just watch out.
BTW Stop scaring off potential posters many here have zero tolerance for new posters.
Thank you
Go Thunder
BTW my previous post was a joke but some are so uptight they cant tell unless you use emoticons.

As usual, you're way off base.   Posts were responses to a Wheaton fan post.  Nobody said a word about that being a new poster or not.  I think it's a player anyway. 

[CardinalAlum]

GT, I do plan to enjoy the playoffs, by the way.  From one NCC bro to another! 

[AndOne]

Go Thunder---

Evidently my post #29195 above touched a nerve. As a result you called me "uptight."
However, tell me which of the points I made is not valid, especially #8 which, in part, praised Wheaton's Jordan Roberts.
All I did was respond to a post which honestly seems to largely be a pack of excuses for the Wheaton loss. Should Wheaton have won and I made such a post, I would expect a similar reaction.

[AndOne]

To address your point on coaching,I couldn't disagree more. A terrific gameplan is the biggest reason Wheaton was as close as they were yesterday. Wheaton had a great offensive gameplan to run right at Slezak and limit his ability to pursue laterally where he is at his best. And their execution allowed Wheaton to have the ball for over 20 minutes in the first half. On the other side Wheaton did a pretty good job limiting and slowing down the NCC juggernaut.

Thunder 38----

I mean no disrespect in these questions for you, but it honestly seems like your assessment of Wheaton's coaching/game plan may need some tweeking.

1. Lets say part of the game plan was "great" in running right at Slezak. Given the fact he lad the NCC defense with 12 tackles, including 3 tackles for loss, was the game plan really great?
2. With only 9:24 left in the game, Wheaton ball on the NCC 17, and WC trailing 28-13, it seems Coach Swider pulled a real bonehead play by ordering a field goal on 4th down. While the kick was successful, it turned the ball back over to NCC with Wheaton STILL needing 2 TD scores! The Cardinals then proceeded to go on a 75 yard, 16 play drive that consumed almost 8 of the slightly less than 9 1/2 minutes remaining to seal the victory. Wheaton needed a TD at that point, not a field goal.
You really think this was good game planning?

[Stagg Again!!]

To address your point on coaching,I couldn't disagree more. A terrific gameplan is the biggest reason Wheaton was as close as they were yesterday. Wheaton had a great offensive gameplan to run right at Slezak and limit his ability to pursue laterally where he is at his best. And their execution allowed Wheaton to have the ball for over 20 minutes in the first half. On the other side Wheaton did a pretty good job limiting and slowing down the NCC juggernaut.

Thunder 38----

I mean no disrespect in these questions for you, but it honestly seems like your assessment of Wheaton's coaching/game plan may need some tweeking.

1. Lets say part of the game plan was "great" in running right at Slezak. Given the fact he lad the NCC defense with 12 tackles, including 3 tackles for loss, was the game plan really great?
2. With only 9:24 left in the game, Wheaton ball on the NCC 17, and WC trailing 28-13, it seems Coach Swider pulled a real bonehead play by ordering a field goal on 4th down. While the kick was successful, it turned the ball back over to NCC with Wheaton STILL needing 2 TD scores! The Cardinals then proceeded to go on a 75 yard, 16 play drive that consumed almost 8 of the slightly less than 9 1/2 minutes remaining to seal the victory. Wheaton needed a TD at that point, not a field goal.
You really think this was good game planning?

I'm not jumping in on the debate here other than to agree with AO in point number two.  NCC fans were thrilled when WC decided to kick the field goal.  The Crusaders hadn't moved the ball effectively the entire second half, they are down two TDs and a two point conversion, and Swider took the three.  As noted, WC still needed two TDs and two stops in 9 minutes.  Not only had the Crusaders been 2-2 in converting 4th down conversions, but they had picked up 23 yards and 6 yards on the two plays converted. During the play in question, it was 4th and 8, ball on the 17.  A final point, WC had come into the game tied for a national ranking of #45, having converted 58.3% of their 4th down attempts.  IMO, WC's fate was sealed with that coaching decision.  Two three and outs by NCC would have chewed up close to five minutes, which meant that WC needed to have two successful two minute drills in the remaining time.